What would World Eaters and Emperors Children players want from their own codex?

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**ArcaneHorror**

JNAProductions wrote:
To be fair, do WE want Mutilators? They... They suck.

They'll probably get new rules once the plastic models come out, probably being a melee mirror of the new Obliterator rules.

**The Warp Forge**

For WE I'd like them to hit harder and reliable ways of getting them into charge range.

For models give me additionally rider and Lords of Juggernaughts and Red Butchers all 'amped up and ready to kill.

For EC I want them to be fast. I'm not a fan that they are the 'shooty' go to's currently. To me that was always Tzeenches shtick. Make them always attack first or more stats where if they die they can still throw down one last time.

For models I want snake bois, like Honour Guard for lords and Fulgrim. I also wanna see Pheonix guard and warped up Palatine blades. Make them fast and get them in combat asap. That's was the EC way from back in the day. A plastic Lucius also would be greatly appreciated!

**purplkrush**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
Just because they're not famous for warpsmiths doesn't mean that they don't have them. Warpsmiths are crucial to the maintenance of daemon engines on the battlefield, and we know from the codex lore that they can be allied to Khorne, changing oil into blood. VC can be linked to MoP, but don't have to be. Also, WE Masters could exist, just be different from others in having no psychic powers except for their special summoning discipline (summoning is considered valid for Khornate forces), and maybe different buffs such as automatically giving a +1 strength or attack to legion daemon units within a certain range. Mutilators, a least from what I've read, are found more frequently found in Khorne warbands, and I think that it just makes sense that the WE have them. Personally, I think that all CSM armies should have access to almost all the same stuff (TS don't need possessed, or could at least get a special variety), and the armies with their own codex should just get more stuff.

The idea is to differentiate the various Chaos armies so that taking an army reflects it’s background. I’m not saying I agree with dropping half the units in the main codex from all armies, but it is likely to happen. Additionally, I was specific in trying to imagine what interesting and fluffy unit might arise to take the place of the units lost.

You were unhappy with the loss of Bikers but if they were replaced with Chosen riding Juggernauts with more WE specific abilities, does that not change the flavor of the game while keeping a similar capability available? Dropping weaker Cultist chaff and replacing them with beefier (but still cheaper) non-CSM troop option again tweaks the army in a certain manner while keeping the role fulfilled. Gods specific codices WILL lose units in the same manner as TS/DG so better to actively encourage GW in the right direction. I fully understand and appreciate the anger over losing basic Bikes and Oblits but if the result is fresh, imaginative and fits the fluff, why not embrace the ideology of making the different armies REAL CHOICES rather than Men in Grey Suits?

By the by, originally Obliterators were their own Cult and not associated directly with any of the chaos gods.

**Brutallica**

World Eaters

Rules:
We need to make the legion more tough, they need to get into CC, and they are not raven guard, so id suggest +5 feel no pains as a character bubble (perhaps a new HQ "Bloodfather Gorepriest or whatever") or perhaps equipment, better Rhino rules would also be an idea.

Red Butchers, invalidate the stratagem, Make it a unit/model cost ability for Termies and Termie Lords in WE only armies.

Skarbrand or Whitescar'esque anti fallback

2W berserkers

Sure we wont win any tournaments, but atleast we will have a chance and actually have a game against an average joe IG tank spammer or Primaris Repulsinatersestors.

**Lotus Corgi**

I thought a new noise marine weapon instrument would be interesting...ya know, round the band out. Some kind of percussion instrument?

**vict0988**

Lotus Corgi wrote:
I thought a new noise marine weapon instrument would be interesting...ya know, round the band out. Some kind of percussion instrument?

Could put him on some kind of Daemonic vehicle. New heavy support drummer.

**Jidmah**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
Just because they're not famous for warpsmiths doesn't mean that they don't have them. Warpsmiths are crucial to the maintenance of daemon engines on the battlefield, and we know from the codex lore that they can be allied to Khorne, changing oil into blood. VC can be linked to MoP, but don't have to be. Also, WE Masters could exist, just be different from others in having no psychic powers except for their special summoning discipline (summoning is considered valid for Khornate forces), and maybe different buffs such as automatically giving a +1 strength or attack to legion daemon units within a certain range. Mutilators, a least from what I've read, are found more frequently found in Khorne warbands, and I think that it just makes sense that the WE have them. Personally, I think that all CSM armies should have access to almost all the same stuff (TS don't need possessed, or could at least get a special variety), and the armies with their own codex should just get more stuff.

Sure, but that's not how GW is doing it.
Check my last post, you get all the generic stuff on that list, plus more 3-4 datasheets and lose everything else. You also lose most of the generic stratagems, access to daemon weapons and vigilus detachments.
So assuming WE get to keep the mauler fiend, forge fiend, warp smith and havocs, these four datasheets are exhausted and you lose everything else from Codex: CSM, just like TS and DG did.
Everything else in codex will be WE-exclusive units or khorne daemons you can summon.

**ArcaneHorror**

purplkrush wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
Just because they're not famous for warpsmiths doesn't mean that they don't have them. Warpsmiths are crucial to the maintenance of daemon engines on the battlefield, and we know from the codex lore that they can be allied to Khorne, changing oil into blood. VC can be linked to MoP, but don't have to be. Also, WE Masters could exist, just be different from others in having no psychic powers except for their special summoning discipline (summoning is considered valid for Khornate forces), and maybe different buffs such as automatically giving a +1 strength or attack to legion daemon units within a certain range. Mutilators, a least from what I've read, are found more frequently found in Khorne warbands, and I think that it just makes sense that the WE have them. Personally, I think that all CSM armies should have access to almost all the same stuff (TS don't need possessed, or could at least get a special variety), and the armies with their own codex should just get more stuff.

The idea is to differentiate the various Chaos armies so that taking an army reflects it’s background. I’m not saying I agree with dropping half the units in the main codex from all armies, but it is likely to happen. Additionally, I was specific in trying to imagine what interesting and fluffy unit might arise to take the place of the units lost.

You were unhappy with the loss of Bikers but if they were replaced with Chosen riding Juggernauts with more WE specific abilities, does that not change the flavor of the game while keeping a similar capability available? Dropping weaker Cultist chaff and replacing them with beefier (but still cheaper) non-CSM troop option again tweaks the army in a certain manner while keeping the role fulfilled. Gods specific codices WILL lose units in the same manner as TS/DG so better to actively encourage GW in the right direction. I fully understand and appreciate the anger over losing basic Bikes and Oblits but if the result is fresh, imaginative and fits the fluff, why not embrace the ideology of making the different armies REAL CHOICES rather than Men in Grey Suits?

By the by, originally Obliterators were their own Cult and not associated directly with any of the chaos gods.

I actually would far prefer 40k Skullcrushers to bikes, and would be willing to see Cult of Destruction units go away. For me, the big issue was the various daemon engines. Maulerfiends and Forgefiends in particular fit so well with the WE, and Disco lords are just so awesome and at this moment necessary to make many engines viable (the lack of Khorne's access to sorcerers makes them even more important). I would be willing, but sad nonetheless, to see Venomcrawlers be replaced by a WE-specific engine.

**Jidmah**

Disco Lord would also make many DG units viable.

Having your own codex means not getting the good stuff from Codex: CSM and having to rely on your own things instead.

**vict0988**

Jidmah wrote:
Disco Lord would also make many DG units viable.

Having your own codex means not getting the good stuff from Codex: CSM and having to rely on your own things instead.

PBC supported by a Disco Lord would be real nasty I imagine and the smaller ones could really use it, given how DG are doing ATM there is very little reason to not let them have it IMO. There has to be someone making all those PBCs DG are so fond of. Errataing the rules for which units can be taken as DG/TS would basically just be printing money as every DG player would get 1-3 Disco Lords. Also, just allowing DG to have Warptime on their casters so you don't have to soup would be real nice. I'm not sure about having a separate codex meaning you don't get the good stuff, that seems really lame and is random depending on what units they remove and which units are OP at any given point in time. Not having access to certain units because it's unthematic for them to be used? Perfectly reasonable. Not allowing people to use the bikes they've been using for several editions because you want to sell more unique models from your DG/TS line-up or because you're too stupid to imagine those people exist, not cool. It seems like you're just saying these things because it's carrying forward with GW's bad design decisions, is that the case?

**Jidmah**

I wouldn't really agree on "nasty" - the PBC's power in competitive games almost exclusively comes from a weapon that auto-hits anyways, and having the stubber and mortar hit on 4s instead of 5s isn't exactly worth bringing a lord discordant. So the synergy would only affect the entropy cannon build which is considered inferior anyways.

When GW designs these legion codices, they take the core theme of the army and expand on it, turning them into a completely separate army from codex CSM.
People here are expecting a BA or SW style codex for their World Eaters/Emperor's Children, when GW clearly sees legions as GK or DW style armies - less options, but more focus. You get to keep what makes them a Space Marine Legion, but no more.

**mrFickle**

Emperors children should be allowed renegade sisters of battle. I haven’t figured out why but it would be cool. Flagilists and all that is very slaneesh

**PenitentJake**

Arcoflagellants, repentia, penitent engines and even mortifiers as well as Chaotic exorcists all provide great bases for Slaanesh armies, as do AoS Flagellants.

It would also be the pinnacle of the corrupter's art to corrupt a sister; they are so holy and pure that they literally invoke miracles on a regular basis.

**purplkrush**

vict0988 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Ogryns and Bullgryns both got PA strats, so they are better than they were, though perhaps still not spectacular.

Ogryn went from 24 to 30 pts, that's a 25% increase, that's on par with the nerf Castellans got... In return, they got Furious Charge for 1CP, a mediocre Stratagem, no they are not better than before, the nerf was entirely unwarranted and Furious Charge won't ever be used because nobody will bring Ogryn now that the already bad unit has gotten massively more expensive.

Are you suggest Khorne troops, or even unaligned legions get access to Noise weapons and plague drones? Because then how could you create death guard or emperor's children?

Yes. DG and EC would have Relics and then the individual player would be able to customize his available Stratagems from a shared list that all factions get access to and choose which WL trait best fits not just his Legion but his specific army list and commander.

I think giving ALL legions unique stuff is what adds flavour, not takes it away. If you want to level the playing field between legiuons, I'd Alpha legion or Night Lords or whatever get there own unique stuff, rather than taking unique stuff away from people who are fortunate enough to have it.

Sure it adds flavour to the ones that are getting it, but it also prevents all the other Legions and Warbands that aren't that one Legion from benefitting. I wouldn't want to take Tzaangor away from Thousand Sons, I'd just share them among all Chaos armies, you'd still be able to take them as Thousand Sons. Ideally, if you paint your army a colour scheme and develop fluff for it you should be able to play as that army and not have to write 1-3 different Legions on your list to get the rules and models you want. If Relics and Unique characters were the only things preventing that you could represent your dudes on the battlefield instead of being forced to play one of GW's groups of dudes.

If you want to play a legion that isn't aligned to slaanesh, not having noise weapons IS part of your flavour; you haven't earned access to those weapons by proving loyalty to slaanesh.

I agree. But why would a Legion alligned to Tzeentch or Nurgle not be able to take Venomcrawlers when those aligned to Khorne and Slaanesh are?

You may also be advocating for the elimination of those units.

I am not.

Flavour is about difference, not about similarity- it is about what distinguishes one food from another.

That flavour comes at the cost of forcing people to play one of a handful of Legions instead of being able to play whatever Warband they want to create and play with.

Now it's possible I've misinterpreted your point- you seem like a reasonably intelligent person, so maybe I just need to hear more about your point of view in order to see what you are getting at. Maybe you can explain how either giving legion specific units to everyone or eliminating that altogether allows us to create more flavourful armies.

Yeah a bit of misinterpretation, but I think we also just disagree on what's more important, representing GW's fluff or letting people make their own fluff and it's totally fine we disagree I don't think we need to discuss this further. As a Necrons player, I've lost all interest in my own Dynasty over time, I stopped caring about my own colour scheme for the simplicity of just having the "right" colour scheme that fits my rules and I don't like that fact. When I'm bringing my unique characters yes I want to use the official fluff and colours, but when I just have some random army I want it to actually be my dynasty and not just Sautekh in disguise.

All of your assessment involves ignoring detachments and wanting absolute power gaming. Want Bertle’s Every Flavour Beans? Take multiple detachments. The specialist units are for the devout, not the dabbler.

**vict0988**

purplkrush wrote:
All of your assessment involves ignoring detachments and wanting absolute power gaming. Want Bertle’s Every Flavour Beans? Take multiple detachments. The specialist units are for the devout, not the dabbler.

What made you think I want absolute power gaming? I don't want every flavour of beans, I want the ones that make sense to be available and for no silly exceptions to be made based on when or where a unit or rule was printed. How can you justify DG Vindicators not being an option when they are a thing in the lore? Or an easier one, Venomcrawlers? What's the reason that is not available out the box and you have to soup to get it? Why do Thousand Sons have a monopoly on Mutalith Vortex Beasts and not Rubrics? Making Rubrics is AFAIK something only TS can do. Mutalith Vortex Beasts? No reason why the lore of Sorcerer's doing the fusion dance with a Spawn can't work out for other legions and warbands. There is no rhyme or reason to this as far as I can see. So I say open up the floodgates and let people take whichever units they want, with the exception of warbands/legions that are locked into a specific god and unique characters.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Wait where's the people that defend Death Guard getting a "codex" and saying to just ally in the stuff as Nurgle even though they won't benefit from your Death Guard stuff?

**Wyldhunt**

vict0988 wrote:
Lotus Corgi wrote:
I thought a new noise marine weapon instrument would be interesting...ya know, round the band out. Some kind of percussion instrument?

Could put him on some kind of Daemonic vehicle. New heavy support drummer.

Clearly it needs to be a pair of melee weapons that create sonic shockwaves on impact. Deadly melee drumsticks!

**StarHunter25**

Ok. Here goes for World Eaters.

Updated legion tactic -> +1 to attack characteristic when charge/charged/Heroic Intervention. 4+++ against overwatch & mortals from psychic.

HQ: "Berserker" versions of lord, champion, apostle & executioner.

Elite: Proper Red Butcher squad, berserker helbrute, chaos apothecary, icon bearer with AoE effects based on type

Troops: Berserkers, Gors, Cultists

Fast: Raptors, spawn, spiderbots and... not berserker cavalry. That's smol brain think. Big Brain is Berserkers riding Scimitar Jetbikes possessed by juggernauts, wielding Chain Bardiche of course.

Heavy Predators, Vindicators, fiends, deffies and Teeth of Khorne (World Eaters Havoc equivalent. Half range move & shoot, autocannon, heavy bolters, & chaincannons only. Enemies hit debuffed similar to how Primaris Supressor guns work)

• new berserker kit & lord wargear. Start with Chainsword + Bolt pistol. Anyone can swap pistol for plasma, volkite, or soulburner pistol. Chainsword for chainaxe, power weapon. Trade both for [Excoriator Chainaxe: Str+2 Ap-2 Dam2, reroll wound, damage spill like dark angels flail], Heavy Thunder hammer

**mrFickle**

I’d really like to see the retain a connection to their HH and pre HH roots in the way noise marines do. Maybe some sort of artists that piano pictures of demons that come to life on the battlefield. A close connection or integration of choas knight houses considering their nobility. Emperors children were made from the noble houses of old terra who supported the emperor during the unification wars. Hence their aristocratic nature. I also thought it would be cool if the could have CSM units from other legions that they have captured tortured and set lose on the battlefield. Suppose it wouldn’t have to be just CSM units. Not practical probably