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Made in gb
Battlefield Professional




Nottingham, England

Made a product people wanted whilst making that product visible and accessible, building a hobby ecosystem around it (books, tools, paint )and kept most of their ability to produce the product in house,

They also position it positively which means their fans do as well. Every person I know who plays non GW largely doesn’t play GW and they try to “sell” these non GW games by being negative about GW.

I was at the WHW open day where the new plastic great unclean one was on show and talked to the designer, I noticed how they’d designed it to fit together easily, and the chap pointed out that the kit being hard to make shouldn’t be “part of the GW experience”.

It also takes me back to when I joined a major finance company in customer services . The trainer was a very smart guy and basically summed up the told as “make things easy for people. Help them do what they want with less effort”. That’s what we are seeing from GW now with the kit design , push fit , contrast, even the diversification of games is about those customers who want the minis but don’t want or cannot have the tabletop experience.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

I honestly never ranked GW models as hard to assemble. There's perhaps one or two that are a bit trickier than others, but by and large they've always been simple.

I think the complexity comes from some in regard to painting - eg cockpits and the like where if you don't plan in advance you can mess up your ability to paint certain areas of a model.

That said where I am seeing GW doing much better is that they are really putting effort into hiding the seam area on models when you assemble them. That isn't just making it a bit easier (if anything it actually increase the parts and complexity); but it does mean that on more and more models you don't see the join line. With plastic that means less mess of seeing excess glue joins. It's a subtle thing but you can really start to notice it on a lot of their more modern kits. In contrast things like Tyranid Gaunts are much older and have insane things like split heads which are really hard to make well when you've got a join line right down the middle of the face.

   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

People honestly don't give GW's plastic kits the respect they deserve. As an industrial/manufacturing engineer, the manufacturing design of the kits is a work of art in and of itself.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Dreadfleet was playable and still a game.
6th and 7th, while being horribly unbalanced, was not BAD, it was still a ruleset that made sense and was playable.
When i mean bad, i mean a stinker, like, they cant recover any good will from it.
Like
Making an Edition where people consantly argue other throw rules(Mk4)
MAke a faction so unplayable in said edition, they need an FAQ to fix(Skorne)
fething up licensing rights so bad, you have to drop a game(Alien Vs Predator)
Makiing an edition so bad, one of your previous competitors just releases your old edition with a rebranded name and it gets alll the attention until you release a new edition(D&D 4th vs Pathfinder)
Again, GW has duds, but they never have such spectacular feth ups like those


I'd have to argue on that point. GW slipped with 6/7E where a lot of folks abandoned it for PP's Warmahordes* (same as the D&D 4E --> Pathfinder). If PP hadn't inversely slipped up with Mk3, they might not have gotten a large portion of players back.

I think one thing that has worked to GW's advantage is their longevity. Nearly all the other gaming companies I can think of have either merged, bankrupted or recently either started or come to the fore. GW has managed to weather for years, which gives it both familiarity and a base who recommends it to others or returns to it from years ago. They've managed to avoid the fate of many, many other game companies and keep shuffling about through good times and bad. Especially amazing has been their ability to weather the bad times of just a few years ago.

* And it wasn't just Warmahordes. Other games like Gates of Antares, Maelstrom's Edge, Warpath, Kings of War, and Runewars were able to make inroads because GW was offending its fanbase in so many ways. The GW Titanic had certain sprung several leaks for a while.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/10 08:59:42


It never ends well 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






There’s also always been an undercurrent of what I’d call ‘satiscraption’.

It’s a term from the almighty lexicon of rude words, the Viz Profanisaurus. And it describes something being almost comfortably middle of the road, or low rent.

Think general mass consumer products. If I get a McDonalds, it’s satiscraption guaranteed. If I nip to the supermarket and buy some shorts - I’m not expecting top quality, or utter rubbish. Just shorts that’ll last a summer or two.

And much as I love ‘em, GW certainly offer satiscraption to all. You know what you’re getting into with them, you know how this deal works. I know there are games with better rule sets. I know there are objectively better model kits out there. But GW offers the comfort of Never Truly Disappointing,

A large part of the appeal is the sheer community involved. I post on Dakka, I post on a private forum, I post in my local club’s discord, I founded and run the Loot Group, pretty much all my friends link back to my local store in one way or another. So I’m constantly immersed via one medium or the other in GW’s hobby.

Local Stores are crucial to that. Newcomers not only get a friendly, knowledgable face to help them through the first steps, but anyone can walk into a GW Store and come out with everything they need to get their hobby on.

Models? Of course. Rules? Naturally. Paints? ‘Undreds, Guv. Brushes? Yep, and pretty decent quality ones at that, guy. Board? Terrain? Tools? Even opponents.

That’s very, very important to any hobby - having a friendly environment to suss it out and learn the ropes in. FLGS should, in theory, offer the very same thing (that not all do is a different topic I feel).

The ‘big old welcome hug’ GW has deployed to newcomers over the decades is warm. It’s inviting. To the point you really don’t mind them using it as an excuse to rifle through your wallet, because you get so much more in return than just a model kit,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 09:09:35


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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Honestly the fact that it took GW springing userbase leaks in a big way to actaully get the rest of the market going and the fact that millions was ploughed into various kickstarter games around the same time - kind of shows just how much impact GW has on the market.

Their long lifespan certainly makes it attractive to wargamers where it can take years to build up armies - for GW this means you're fairly solid (save for the AoS/Old World event) and safe to invest. Lots of the other firms tend to peak and fall far quicker so the "playing window" contracts.


The best thing is if GW keeps growing its market that's in turn growing the wargamers market. If that keeps growing it gives more room for more firms to step in and solidify their position.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW made a lot of good moves in the early 90s, I think. When I was just starting to get into gaming GW presented themselves as the only game in town, and quite often they were. In the UK you saw them on every high street with models prominently displayed in the windows. You had White Dwarf in the local newsagent and, most importantly, you had Space Crusade and Heroquest being advertised on TV. On top of that, for a while you could get the WH and 40k starter boxes for 4th and 2nd edition in Argos, which was pretty much a retail institution back then. On top of that they did a really good job of building an entire hobby ecosystem so eventually you could not only get books, models and paints from them but also craft knives, cutting mats, steel rulers and files. They weren't the best quality and were invariably overpriced but it meant as a teenager with a bit of cash from a paper round or Saturday job I could jump on a bus to my local GW and get any hobby related stuff I wanted without some exhausting scavenger hunt for the local hobby or game store that was often in some weird part of town, down some random back alley.

That visibility is still the secret today. They're maybe less exclusive now we have the internet to discover things but they're still the recognisable face of gaming to pretty much everyone and especially to non-gamers.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


I’ve also felt the shift in focus at Black Library. That’s not to say every book is an ad or a rush job, but the feeling that the novels exist to explore the depth of the IP sandbox has been replaced by a feeling that the novels are there to explore the depth of the product range. I find myself drifting out of the books as everything comes to a screeching halt to explain some new fluff bit or faction retcon that changed what worked in the setting to what sells models.


One of the Black Library authors (or ex-authors, haven't seen anything from him in a while) was in my gaming group for a while and he mentioned quite a few years ago now that the BL editors would go through manuscripts and make sure any units that were mentioned were given their correct product name in the novel, even when it made things quite jarring. Authors were also often instructed to feature certain units in their stories - like if a Primaris Apothecary is about to be released, make sure there's one in your novel.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




UK

I think one change at BL that AoS has hit home with and 40K is warming up too is an increase of reducing a single faction focus. Granted Old World was always pretty good at that in general, AoS more so.

With 40K it always had a big Imperial focus, but I think we are starting to see more Xenos stories appearing from them which I think is a great thing in diversifying the lore and also in showing that its not just the Imperium which wins in the end every time (or at least gets the most glorious losses)

   
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Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Other factors about the stores - they showed off the hobby, not just the product.

That involved recruiting talented staff. Those who could do beautiful paint jobs, knew the rules, and were a dab hand at assembly. There was also usually cabinet space for customer’s models, another way to show off the whole of the thing.

FLGS? Well, it does vary, doesn’t it? I’ve not been into a great many, as might be expected from someone in the U.K., as we simply don’t have a great many.

Some replicate the GW store experience quite competently. Others, sadly not so much. I’ve seen stunning cabinets, and some which just aren’t. Some even feature broken models, covered in dust and looking a bit sad.

Experiences elsewhere probably do vary. But a well presented store front, showing off the wares has most definitely been part of GW’s success.

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Fixture of Dakka




UK

Most of the FLGS I've been into in the UK have been tiny affairs - boxes stacked high and perhaps just enough room for the till and perhaps a few customers.

I know that Wayland and Firestorm both have big stores (Firestorm I think has 3 now in Wales) and that there's other larger stores around.

I recall seeing a neat display of some Hordes models in a store in Reading a good number of years back. Certainly seeing them made a big difference over just hearing about them or seeing photos online.



Heck these days I get annoyed that so many miniature produces only show 3D renders. To me seeing actual photos (well taken) then actual models beats a 3D render. 3D renders are always clean and neat and can often show off micro-details that either don't make it through casting or painting or are just impractically tiny details.

   
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Philadelphia

Slipspace wrote:
GW made a lot of good moves in the early 90s, I think. When I was just starting to get into gaming GW presented themselves as the only game in town, and quite often they were. In the UK you saw them on every high street with models prominently displayed in the windows. You had White Dwarf in the local newsagent and, most importantly, you had Space Crusade and Heroquest being advertised on TV. On top of that, for a while you could get the WH and 40k starter boxes for 4th and 2nd edition in Argos, which was pretty much a retail institution back then. On top of that they did a really good job of building an entire hobby ecosystem so eventually you could not only get books, models and paints from them but also craft knives, cutting mats, steel rulers and files. They weren't the best quality and were invariably overpriced but it meant as a teenager with a bit of cash from a paper round or Saturday job I could jump on a bus to my local GW and get any hobby related stuff I wanted without some exhausting scavenger hunt for the local hobby or game store that was often in some weird part of town, down some random back alley.


And I'll add to this, that in the US at that time, there were maybe a handful of actual GW stores in the entire US. What they did was have their Outrider program where their staff and volunteers would drive around to local game stores to put on demos, do painting sessions, and show off new releases. In some cases they would run small events. AND they had the Bitz Van. A garishly painted panel van that would drive from FLGS to FLGS, pull up, and sell bitz right then and there (back when GW had a bitz service), and parts from every model in their range could be bought separately. If they didn't have it in the van, they'd take the order and have it shipped to your home.

While GW was doing this, we had Battletech, Warzone, and perhaps one or two others that I can't remember, but none of them had the same level of engagement. Coupled with the annual Games Days and annual Grand Tournaments, made GW in Baltimore a gaming destination (like Gen Con is now).

Of course, that all slowly stopped, the Van (which was broken into and looted) stopped its rounds, and then GW withdrew their GD and GTs. But for those who now fondly remember those times, that's what also keeps us coming back.

That being said, while I feel like the engagement is returning, the increased churn or rules, new factions (back in the 90s we complained that it was impossible to balance 14 factions, which was what 40k and WHFB had each), now its even more, and the prices are what are pushing me to other pursuits. My son, who is 10, can't go into a local game store and buy something with his allowance without saving up for multiple months, and even then, you end up with like 5 models.

As others have mentioned, GW does have longevity, and safety in terms of investing, but they'll need to figure out how to get the kids into it, if their parents aren't willing to bankroll it.

Final thought - there used to be threads talking about GW going under before the Kirby years, and during the Kirby years. If Kirby couldn't sink GW, I don't think it'll happen.

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"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
Most of the FLGS I've been into in the UK have been tiny affairs - boxes stacked high and perhaps just enough room for the till and perhaps a few customers.


Random anecdote time! In Edinburgh and the surrounding area we have a huge variety, from large, impressive FLGS that hosts lots of tournaments to ones that people literally walk past without even realising they're a shop. One looks pretty much like someone's house and hasn't had a proper sign in over a decade. A friend of mine once went to one of our FLGS for the first time to buy some X-Wing stuff and was literally escorted from the café area on the ground floor, down into the depths of the basement to be presented with the "shop" in a cupboard next to the bathroom cleaning supplies. Things have changed in that store since and you can now tell it's actually a shop but I think the consistency of GW's stores in terms of displays and customer interaction is a big positive for them.

For all the complaints people make about GW's over-enthusiastic customer engagement in their shops they do at least put a lot of emphasis on interacting with customers and provide a fairly professional retail experience. That's especially useful when little Johnny's parents or grandparents come in looking to spend £50 on something but with no idea of what that something should be.
   
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 hotsauceman1 wrote:

When i mean bad, i mean a stinker, like, they cant recover any good will from it.
Like
MAke a faction so unplayable in said edition, they need an FAQ to fix(Skorne)


And yet GW somehow gets a passed when Grey Knights were far less playable for far longer in 8th?
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Philadelphia

 LunarSol wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:

When i mean bad, i mean a stinker, like, they cant recover any good will from it.
Like
MAke a faction so unplayable in said edition, they need an FAQ to fix(Skorne)


And yet GW somehow gets a passed when Grey Knights were far less playable for far longer in 8th?


Skorne is one of 5 (Five) Core Factions in Hordes (out of 15 total factions, including 4 limited factions combining Warmachine and Hordes). Grey Knights is a minor faction out of 20 something factions, and arguably isn't a "core" Faction in 40k (although aside from Marines, what is Core in 40k?), and that isn't even adding in the AoS factions to up the faction total.

I'd say that not having Skorne playable is less forgiveable, but ymmv.

That being said, we used to complain about GW that they couldn't balance 14 40k factions. So they go out and then try to double it, and not only double it, but allow soup, which throws an even further level of complication. Should GW have a game that they can get every product out during the edition cycle? Absolutely. Do they? Nope. Could Skorne work at all in Warmahordes? Don't know. Could GK work in 40k. Sure. Were they competitive? No. Did 99% of GK players - i.e. non tournament players - use them without a problem? Probably.

I remember back when SOB were getting one of their codexes, what, back in 5th edition, playtesters gave GW feedback (yes, they had playtesters back then too!) saying "You know, you can abuse these Faith Points by taking X, Y, Z, with this result." GW's response was: Why would anyone do that?" They didn't change anything, and Faith Point abuse happened in certain circles. That right there shows you GW's approach to writing and playing the rules.

Back on topic though - with GW, you know what you're getting from the game, and that doesn't really change. They provide a canvas for your to create your own battles, in your own universe, and, if you want, have a beer and pretzels type game where you push models around. If you're not trying to break the game, and playing by RAI (which is how GW writes rules, always have, always will), then you're golden. And its the large, majority of people who play in basements, game groups, and who only paint GW models, that will keep GW in their market position.




Daemonhunters 1000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013

"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns 
   
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Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






GW are also adept at pushing the educational side of the games.

Sure, you’re not gonna get a degree playing 40k, but it’s still getting your kids doing Sneaky Maths and Stealth Reading. The modelling and painting side of course aid hand/eye coordination. Not to mention social skills.

That makes the hobby appeal to certain parents. And as a former till monkey, it was pretty common to see parental bargaining/blackmail involved in purchase negotiations. Things like ‘if you want that Landraider, you’ll need to get a B’ type stuff.

Sure, there are those parents who do just sort of throw money at it. There always will be. But most are just happy to have found a quiet activity that can be enjoyed solo (building and painting) and with friends (playing, building and painting) and quietly.

I’ve even witnessed parents encouraging their kids to mathammer out loud. Not in a regimented way, just a sneaky way. Like ‘ok, so if you’re hitting on a 3+ on a D6, how many of your 12 shots do you think are likely to hit’. Just small, clever interactions with maths in real life.

Other companies? Well, they just don’t have the outreach in the way GW do. Again, a decent FLGS should run demo games, and know how to sell all the different aspects. But PP et al ( spesh since Pressgangers were wound up) are at the mercy of each FLGS. If the owner for whatever reason or logic just isn’t into your game? You’re not gonna get the sales from that store.

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Fixture of Dakka




UK

GW even got themselves onto the D of E program as one of the skill options. Though that's nothing new (I used model making as a skill decades ago); it was a shift from just a model making to specifically GW model making as an option. That really helps them get into a good few schools along with their school packs.

It's really easy in many ways and yet I'm surprised other firms don't do it. The young teens to young adults is the prime market for recruiting new gamers and many made fans then will have a greater chance of sticking at it long term.




I think also when we consider FLAGS we have to consider return on investment. For them pushing MTG is far more profitable and with a lower boundary of entry at the beginner level. It's just much easier to get kids and parents into the idea of £10 and you're good to go with a pre-made deck. Plus you can convince them to pick up packs of cards for small costs. It's very impulse driven .

Wargames make money, but everything about them is slower. So I figure unless the store manager wants to sell your game chances are they will rely on the club/market to do the selling of it for them. It's not a good policy, but its likely one that they adopt. Esp the one-man-band affairs.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





The answer is Chaos Warriors

GW made and distributed fairly generic fantasy models. They also started making their own Chaos Warrior fantasy models of over-armoured fantasy figures. These sold better than any other line. Bryan Ansell made the connection that people wanted to use their chaos warriors for something and thus Warhammer was born as their own battle system, with chaos and chaos creatures in it. The reason the Warhammer world is mish-mash of medieval nations and fantasy creatures is to enable you to fight your chaos warriors against other ranges games work-shop created.

The Space Marine design is based on the chaos warrior model, but in space. That specifically was the design brief. Again, 40k is a retro universe so that your space chaos warriors can fight your Orcs with bows. The Bow and Arrow was a surprisingly good weapon in 1st edition 40k for this reason.

So basically the answer is chaos warriors. Only GW made them, and only they could therefore see that people wanted these crazy OTT figures way more than they wanted a 100 years war guy with a pike or halfling with sling. Eveyrthing since has just been a vehicle to sell chaos warrior variations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 11:43:55


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW were at the right place at the right time more often than they were not.

those who have tied to follow since create games where they have a 'background' that generally feels very shallow and forced.

as did GWs initially, but GW have grown it over 30 years in a way no other company really has.

they have never had the best rules, but they have typically had rules that were good enough, coupled to models that were good enough and critically easy to get hold of and with the shops easy to see before you bought them

then as noted by many others, had staff who either had a passion or could fake it while other companies stuff at best had disinterested sales types in larger chain stores

Mantic did ok with KoW 2 launching just as GW imploded Warhammer fantasy, Warlord suffered with GoA as 40k 8th launched and basically killed it

essentially GW is to gaming what Microsoft is to computer software, you can survive but it requires GW not to decide to have your market because if they want to they can.

and they have grown to the point of being able to afford the vertical integration (I heard somewhere the only reason they don't own a print studio or paint factory is they couldn't keep it busy with just their own stuff), and that gives them a huge advantage.

then as noted you have that they run on cash and not debt
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






There’s also what I think is a major factor for their early success that I don’t feel I can adequately explain.

See, I was born in the U.K.,in 1980. And the main comic of my life was 2000AD. Mum (RIP) and Dad wouldn’t buy it for me, because it was in its own way pretty mature. But, the barber’s always had fairly recent copies for us to read as we waited.

It was equal parts deadpan, satirical, nihilistic and dystopian. If you look at Rogue Trader era 40k? Shared artists. Shared sentiment. Shared overall aesthetic.

Early 40k and 2000AD were rooted in the decay of Empire, and all that came with it.

It’s not something I can explain in words. That’s not to say it’s inexplicable, just that such themes and vistas have just been part of me and my experience.

So when I first discovered 40k proper, it imprinted in away very, very few forms of media have. Not even Transformers, He-Man, GI Joe, Thundercats et al did. That whole thing was, for me and peeps I know of similar age, profound.

I know I’m doing a bad job of explaining it here. But it is what it is.

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Ive got a few years on Doc but cant disagree about 2000AD and its massive influence on 40k and as besides the odd reprint we didnt really have supercomics in the UK at that time so once you grown out of the Beano et al it was war comics or 2000AD and whilst Dredd was the figure head the likes of Rogue Trooper and especially Nemesis had a hand in shaping 40k

And of course GW putting out a Dredd RPG and a couple of Board games and a slew of minis got a lot of readers on side buying in and once you got em....

also most cromulent use of the profanisarus old chap

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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Well now I don’t know which of the many profanities I used!

PM me with the answer, so we can suitably giggle!

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UK

Perhaps the better question is not why is GW so powerful, but why is no one else even close to their rival. Even PP at their height was miles from GW's size and influence.



Why is it that the wargaming market the world over is so heavily dominated by one company.


I'm guessing that big names (Sony etc...) just don't see enough profit potential to invest heavily into the market. Whilst other toy firms have their own niches and markets. I'm guessing one risk of GW being so publicly BIG now is we might see another big firm try and muscle into the market - which might bring a far more corporate style and approach.

   
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Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






The only real difference is the stores.

Let’s face it. Any shop front is expensive to maintain, let alone anyone even trying to match GW’s sheer coverage.

GW essentially grew for a single FLGS. But with ‘Brass Knobs On’.

I really don’t know that can be replicated

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Most likely not in the internet era

and whilst its not apples to apples the only card game that got close to mtg was the non-physical hearthstone, which admittedly had the wow brand helping it but up till then many possibly better card games just got crushed under the five colour juggernaut

so i think anyone elses best shot at the moment is to provide what gw cant, and even that might start getting tricky as gw get more reactive to formats and genre




"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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Not intending to be a Richard, but what is your take on what GW can’t provide?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And is their a difference between what they can’t and won’t?

Completely open questions. I’ve no horse in this race!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 22:02:53


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Nowadays new market entrants have the same issue the million and one MMO games had when they tried to topple World of Warcraft

the amount of time they have had to produce content, even if a lot of the old stuff isn't terribly relevant anymore

bring out a new wargame and people insist on lots of factions (well at least 4), a decent amount of stuff for each faction, lots of background and depth and they just haven't had time to develop

even GW ran into this problem with AoS with people wanting depth equal to 30 years of writing in the old world (and they were right in a way, AoS was pretty shallow by comparison)

 
   
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UK

AoS was crippled by its own missmangement and GW's odd desire to keep it such a strong secret that it backfired on itself. If they'd approached it with the full resources and without keeping it top secret and, honestly, with the right management attitude, I think they could have done FAR better. Heck in the interview thread its even said that they had a full working points and rule system for launch which was basically thrown out the window at the whims of appeasing one manager.

I don't think ppeople wanted 30 years worth of lore from AoS; but its launch was very confusing. Even now it still suffers somewhat from a lack of a proper time-line and geographic setup to let people orientate themselves in the stories.

   
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 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Nowadays new market entrants have the same issue the million and one MMO games had when they tried to topple World of Warcraft

the amount of time they have had to produce content, even if a lot of the old stuff isn't terribly relevant anymore

bring out a new wargame and people insist on lots of factions (well at least 4), a decent amount of stuff for each faction, lots of background and depth and they just haven't had time to develop

even GW ran into this problem with AoS with people wanting depth equal to 30 years of writing in the old world (and they were right in a way, AoS was pretty shallow by comparison)

That is why several of the ones coming close to popularity are IP wargames like star wars and such.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





@ Doc, back in 2012ish when me and the geedubs finally called it a day it was 40k or nowt (AOS was still in its stupid insult to gamers phase)

So just drifted into other games, smaller skirmishy games mostly

Now GW offer way wider entry points so besides licensed fare even my prior point is getting trickier

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Ahhhh, gotcha!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking back to the early days, when Rogue Trader was a fairly rinkydink job with high aspirations.

Way back then, the whole hobby retained a largely DIY ethos. As a company, they couldn’t really produce many tanks or big things. It wasn’t a lack of will, just a lack of resources.

We see them instead focus on infantry sized stuff, and occasional small vehicle (Ork Buggy).

Indeed until 2nd Edition rolled around, the only plastic vehicles available were the Rhino, Predator, Land Raider and Battle Wagon. The latter two of course were out of production by 2nd (I think? Certainly the Land Raider, Battle Wagon might’ve lasted longer?)

This lead to a necessity of scratch building and converting. WD was often a showcase of such things. Some relatively simple kitbashes, others which would impress today.

The same went for terrain. Barring hedges and trees produced by model railroad type businesses, there really wasn’t much in the way of commercial terrain.

Nowadays of course ‘there’s a model for that’, and GW sell it. That occurred by degrees over the years, rather than in one fell swoop.

Yet? The converting and scratch building remains a solid part of the hobby. It’s a rare army that has no conversion work at all, even if it’s just a head swap or weapon swap. And rather than being done out of necessity, it’s a hobby thing to put your stamp on your army.

It’s also the same with rules. GW has always been quite upfront that their rules are a ‘serving suggestion’. And we see all sorts of house rules, from codified efforts such as ITC, to just two mates having a game, and agreeing stuff on the fly by applying the Rule of Cool.

I know others want a tighter rules set. And that’s fine. I’m not saying it’s ‘either/or’ here. Yet because of the rickety origins, a thread runs through 40k in particular of ‘make do and mend’.

Other companies? Not so much. I guess the wider community just doesn’t want Another Games Workshop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going back to my original comment, and the impact of Hero Quest?

Found this video on YouTube during an idle browsing session. Definitely worth a view!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JbRWIMjzPA&list=PLCYSDJQezavLvmpmlPUuqIwXMa_SjxRmj

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/12 10:09:45


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