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Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






One thing that GW has always had was strong imagery and table appearance.

The first GW game I remember was Space Hulk. It was at a local convention and I went there to play Marvel RPG from the late 80s. I thought the game had everything. It had city maps
and tri-fold standees for miniatures. But a few tables over was a newly released space hulk and all the miniatures were painted. Seeing it for the first time I felt the game
was on a completely different level. One thing that the miniature was plastic, most I had seen at that point was RAFM and Ral Partha.
Even today you have games of War machine that are not even close to the tables that GW have.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Genoside07 wrote:
One thing that GW has always had was strong imagery and table appearance.

The first GW game I remember was Space Hulk. It was at a local convention and I went there to play Marvel RPG from the late 80s. I thought the game had everything. It had city maps
and tri-fold standees for miniatures. But a few tables over was a newly released space hulk and all the miniatures were painted. Seeing it for the first time I felt the game
was on a completely different level. One thing that the miniature was plastic, most I had seen at that point was RAFM and Ral Partha.
Even today you have games of War machine that are not even close to the tables that GW have.


have to agree, never really got into Space Hulk (though using the same boards for 40k 1st edition was great fun), but the local GW had an amazing set of SH boards, a seemingly unlimited supply of 40mm square bases for the floor, then it looked like they had raided a local model shop for tank kits and similar to greeble the walls, filled a ping pong table and was usually well attended - they had the genestealers and the store staff would run them (in a basic sort of way) and challenge players to see hw far into the depths they could get

even without really liking the game they way they did that was enjoyable (I got to play the baddies a few times as I was happy to ham it up a bit)

the visual impact of this, even though it was pretty basic really, was incredible
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





The answer may also be political and cultural. The creation of consumer culture really ramped up in the Thatcher/Reagan era. GW just happened to be well positioned as mass consumerism became a truly all pervading and eventually global phenomenon.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




 Genoside07 wrote:
One thing that GW has always had was strong imagery and table appearance.

The first GW game I remember was Space Hulk. It was at a local convention and I went there to play Marvel RPG from the late 80s. I thought the game had everything. It had city maps
and tri-fold standees for miniatures. But a few tables over was a newly released space hulk and all the miniatures were painted. Seeing it for the first time I felt the game
was on a completely different level. One thing that the miniature was plastic, most I had seen at that point was RAFM and Ral Partha.
Even today you have games of War machine that are not even close to the tables that GW have.


Eh. I've never encountered that except as conscious choice by organizers/players.

I've seen amazing battletech boards, for example, but also the basic hexgrids, and at convention people put all sorts of love into their tables regardless of the game or company. For the majority of my time playing WM/Hordes and GW, in various stores, we used the same pool of terrain and tables for both games that we used for GW games. Same with any fly-by night games that came through.

For Warmachine/Hordes specifically, there was a deliberate shift to pushing the flat felt terrain to go with the steamroller rules for clarity and the mirror terrain (both players have the exact same conditions). To me that was a deliberate choice by the company to stumble.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Most likely not in the internet era

and whilst its not apples to apples the only card game that got close to mtg was the non-physical hearthstone, which admittedly had the wow brand helping it but up till then many possibly better card games just got crushed under the five colour juggernaut


So we're just ignoring the Pokemon TCG, then? Despite it overtaking MTG in sales in 2016 and holding 82% of Europe's card market since 2018?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 17:00:27


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





well colour me surprised didnt even know it was still a thing just assumed it was pika road kill in the way back when although gave up on mtg around Kaladesh so my ccg-fu is rather out of date


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
well colour me surprised didnt even know it was still a thing just assumed it was pika road kill in the way back when although gave up on mtg around Kaladesh so my ccg-fu is rather out of date



It literally did so well that The Pokemon Company took the game away from WotC(that's not technically true in all honesty, it's more to do with WotC focusing more on MTG despite Pokemon's success and TPC wanting more control over the game than WotC would allow, IIRC). It's had a comparable professional circuit since like 2001.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 17:38:13


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





what cheaters, collusion and favourtism for the in-crowd ? Surely Professor Treechap wouldnt stand for that

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






I can't speak for the past, but I can say that I cannot think of a single other game that comes close to having the number of playable factions, the over the top out of this world model designs, the pure power fantasy elements and so on that this game has.

More importantly, they've embraced social media and influence culture which is a massive powerhouse in the world right now. And for better or worse, the electronic industry has been making a killing with video games that cost GW nothing and only generate cash.

Another thing I would touch on is their IP. They've set up system where it's a one stop. I go into a GW store and I can get it all, in one place. Books, Models, Paint, Brushes, Basing materials, Glue, Magazines, Tips and Tricks. For a new player, that's a god send.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
well colour me surprised didnt even know it was still a thing just assumed it was pika road kill in the way back when although gave up on mtg around Kaladesh so my ccg-fu is rather out of date



It literally did so well that The Pokemon Company took the game away from WotC(that's not technically true in all honesty, it's more to do with WotC focusing more on MTG despite Pokemon's success and TPC wanting more control over the game than WotC would allow, IIRC). It's had a comparable professional circuit since like 2001.


Remember that time WoTC bought up L5r from Alderac at the right time (giving them just enough money to get out of debt) and then proceeded to try for years to kill the L5r community to sequester any competition for M:TG? Because I remember that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 18:04:45


 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





I dont exactly remember but it was prior to the interwebs really being a thing so the local nerdherd just played both, I vaguely remember the feel of the card pool changing to be more magicy with non-unique rares creeping in, but stopped around the Race to Voltrum story arc

But back on topic the shops are so key, my corner of the shire has been without an indie store for about 12 years and the majority of my local club veterens are connected via that store which makes picking up new players trixy

We had a GW for a decade or so and to many players they are the only game in town

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Further thoughts on the various ‘ages’ of GW as I’ve experienced them, beginning around 1990.

As covered much earlier, I arrived via Hero Quest and Space Crusade. And I had everything for those released in the U.K.

When I got further into it? Space Hulk, Tyranid Attack and Blood Bowl all offered low cost continuation. First proper game with armies of my choice? Epic. From there, when I hit 14 and started paid jobs ( paper rounds etc) I started on WHFB and 40k.

Yet....there was that period where it seemed GW lost their mind, and abandoned all but WHFB, LotR and 40k. Yes specialist games existed, but weren’t exactly well promoted or supported.

And it was around that time (again, my perspective only) that army size and price really started to ramp up. I was lucky, as I had a key time job with GW, so was insulated by that wonderful discount.

But for others? The price barrier just kept going up and up and up.

We then arrive at the modern age, in which GW have once again heavily varied their options. Want to get your game on, but on a limited budget? Underworlds and Aeronautica might be your thing. Both involve very low buy-in, and expansions are fairly pocket friendly p. Wanting to expand further? Well, there’s BSF, WarCry and Kill Team. Managed to rope others in and now have a stable gaming circle? Why not Necromunda or Blood Bowl for league type gaming.

And all without impinging on 40k and AoS’ own appeal.

Example of how that can benefit? Few months back, I was in my local GW, buying stuff (can’t remember what exactly). Manager (and my old boss) was having a chat with someone who’d come across a copy of the new Space Hulk, and had greatly enjoyed it. Dude was specifically looking for expansions, as he’d been involved when I first was, and hoped for Deathwing or Genestealer.

Manager explained ‘sadly not, only WD articles, I’ve got back issues though’. But because Old Skills Never Die, I suggested BSF. It’s broadly similar to Space Hulk, offers more variety, and is expandable.

Sure enough, Manager takes over after my suggestion, and a sale is made, including a few ancillaries.

Now, whether Dude ever came back for expansions I’ll simply never know. But because GW had diversified their offerings, a decent sale was made where it wouldn’t have been possible before.

And I think that’s why we’ve seen a serious resurgence in GW’s dominance. They offer more ways to play and get involved than ever before, and not all of them involve continuous spending.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
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Fair points Doc, also think Kickstarter success for CMON etc was also kick up bot that people would buy one and done boxed games (GW dabbled but i suspect Space Hulk and the HH boxes largely went to existing customers)

I been tempted a few times Bloodbowl got trumped by Guildball rocking up a few months earlier and being based on the one true football rather than the cosplay rugger they play out in the merkia, Underworlds likewise but felt theyd foob up with the deck building bit and no elf faction



"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Fair points Doc, also think Kickstarter success for CMON etc was also kick up bot that people would buy one and done boxed games (GW dabbled but i suspect Space Hulk and the HH boxes largely went to existing customers)

I been tempted a few times Bloodbowl got trumped by Guildball rocking up a few months earlier and being based on the one true football rather than the cosplay rugger they play out in the merkia, Underworlds likewise but felt theyd foob up with the deck building bit and no elf faction




HH in particular was more of discount box of HH marines to HH players yeah. You could get the game rules and parts for very cheap in ebay as everybody was just hoarding up the marines. Particularly the 1st one with MKIV marines was very good deal for HH players. Prospero suffered a bit from special characters and sisters of silence/custodians being force fed to you reducing value of multi purchace.

My interest to HH vaned with death of those boxes. Got too expensive without those.

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Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





At least where I am - the market force is a nuclear reaction. People play GW games here because people play GW games. They know that if they drop $800 on a new army that there will always be people to play it. Anywhere in the world. Even if they never go more than 15 miles from their home ever in their life.

They may hate the rules. They may complain about the balance. But in the end its that they know its the only game in town that will always be there, and any other game they try to promote has a limited shelf life that requires a lot of work and effort to maintain and keep going.

GW games drive themselves on auto pilot without any real work from the community to keep going.

And then there are the cottage industries that pop up around it. Painting services. Twitch streams. Guys trying to get paid to play 40k. All of that attracts more people, which in turn attracts more people.

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Myrtle Creek, OR

Auticus's experience mirrors mine (and I've seen it repeated in DC, VA, MD, PA, KY, AZ, NM and now in OR). Unless you have a buddy or three willing to play alternative stuff, major GW games are pretty much what people will play and buy stuff for.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I think you also need to look at the size of the market. There really can't be two big players because, as previously with PP, as someone gains steam there's not enough people in the hobby to support both even mid term and the larger one shrinks as it has the highest amount (numerical) of the people that aren't hardcore dedicated to a game and willing to shift.

Smaller companies tend to have larger percent of the players being very dedicated to it.

Also since the size of the market is small and doesn't have the ability for high margins/earnings the chance of anyone really investing a lot of money to "disrupt it" is pretty low (I think the Kirby era showed this as people just left as GW tried to earn as much as possible off of each kit). KSer's probably the closest thing and I think the only wargame/company that started 100% there that ever got any traction is Guildball (which seams to be dyeing off).

The RPG market is very similar. You could easy title this thread "why does D&D have such market force?" and there'd be a good amount of overlap of factors as again. Small sized market overall, low margin from sales, one system been the top dog most of the life of the market and a brand has been able to develop slowly over time and it's entered pop culture which earns it more then probably sales of it's actual products.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/21 07:13:33


 
   
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UK

If GW is making millions a year in profit and kickstarters within a year are also able to turn million (as a collective) then I'd argue that there is ample room for several competing brands within the market.

Sure its not the size of vast markets like for, say, suncreams and the like, but there is room. PP rising up showed that. PP's issue is more that they started making unpopular choices at the same time GW started making very popular choices.


The big issue for wargames, and similar to DnD, is that not only is the market leader a major force within the market, but that most of the firms that have come after it to compete rely heavily on poaching the existing major brand's customer base. That's the real issue, every time you get major competition its thriving off poaching customers.
This creates an issue because unless the new competing brand throws a lot of money into the system (like EPIC is for getting a slice of the PC game market pie); or provides something desired and not provided by others (eg like how GOG works); then the main brand is always there able to draw lost customers back.


I think a new firm trying to push in and wanting to make it big would really need to push into the new customer market; penetrating the young market like GW does and securing their own consumer base as that first/early time experience. Or at least once the firm gets its feet under it they have to go after that market. That was, in my view, PP's failing in that even with their PG system it was focused over recruiting existing gamers.



Also I'd argue that whilst visually the RPG market is dominated by DnD, the LARPing market (which is broadly related) has grown and uses different systems entirely. In fact over the last 10-20 years I'd say LARPing has gone from an underground movement of extreme DnD geeks into historical re-enactment, into its own major force.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
If GW is making millions a year in profit and kickstarters within a year are also able to turn million (as a collective) then I'd argue that there is ample room for several competing brands within the market.

Sure its not the size of vast markets like for, say, suncreams and the like, but there is room. PP rising up showed that. PP's issue is more that they started making unpopular choices at the same time GW started making very popular choices.


I disagree slightly though I see where you are coming from.

My feelings on kickstarter, especially when it first came around wasn't that it was 'new' people more than it was existing players spending more. In my mind, It was a combination of existing players, burned out from the big games, and all of a sudden, you had what amounted to boutique specialised products coming out which appealed.

I don't think it's fair to say there is room for multiple competing brands. There is room for multiple competing brands but only at the expense and detriment of the others.

Pp's rise wasn't an expansion of the market. It was a cannibalisation of the market, on the whole. A good analogy is the tide coming in and out. Pp rose during gw's 'summer of discontent' around 2011-14, when gw couldn't piss off its players fast enough and seemingly did everything they could to turn their players against them. Most pp players came from the 40k competitive scene, and I do think some of the baggage came with them (rather than being creative, and exploring the fame it became about 'take this list and win' etc). As you say, Pp started making some seriously boneheaded decisions right at the time gw started to turn it around, and the playerbase haemmorhaged.

 Overread wrote:

The big issue for wargames, and similar to DnD, is that not only is the market leader a major force within the market, but that most of the firms that have come after it to compete rely heavily on poaching the existing major brand's customer base. That's the real issue, every time you get major competition its thriving off poaching customers.
This creates an issue because unless the new competing brand throws a lot of money into the system (like EPIC is for getting a slice of the PC game market pie); or provides something desired and not provided by others (eg like how GOG works); then the main brand is always there able to draw lost customers back.


Agreed.

 Overread wrote:

I think a new firm trying to push in and wanting to make it big would really need to push into the new customer market; penetrating the young market like GW does and securing their own consumer base as that first/early time experience. Or at least once the firm gets its feet under it they have to go after that market. That was, in my view, PP's failing in that even with their PG system it was focused over recruiting existing gamers.
.


Agreed. Getting new players in is something gw does well, while others seem to 'leach' off of what gw does. That said, there are other avenues of exposurewhen I played WMH seriously, I was out of the gw ecosphere, and came in contact with a lot of historicals etc and their players and came across a not insigniificant amount of people who had never played gw games who were wargaming, especially the historical scene, which I think. A lot of gw players are unaware of.

 Overread wrote:
I
Also I'd argue that whilst visually the RPG market is dominated by DnD, the LARPing market (which is broadly related) has grown and uses different systems entirely. In fact over the last 10-20 years I'd say LARPing has gone from an underground movement of extreme DnD geeks into historical re-enactment, into its own major force.


In my experience larping was always the red headed stepchild, or the 'third Murray son' of geek culture. I struggle to view larping as a major force but then again, I've not been exposed much to it, or to people into it. It's interesting that you present it like this. Thanks,

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I think for Larping the University scene is what kicked it off. I think there was a core generation or two going through Uni that got it going and managed to keep with it after Uni which let it gain traction that it lacked before.


I do agree that PP and KS both rose from former GW customers; that GW could bleed those customers to a tune of millions suggests to me that there is room for a competing brand. I do agree with you that if that is the way a competing brand arose then GW would have to take some losses, but as I see it they do have healthy income enough to soak such a change. It might mean that if such a situation arose we might see GW's rapid release rate slow a bit.


I think GW also realises this "risk" which might be in part why they've put new energy into the specialist games. I think they've seen that there's a market and interest for more than 40K and AoS and that if they don't tap into it, someone else will. If that someone else starts bleeding off GW customers then that means GW is making less from the customers they've invested in to attracting in the first place.



Overall I think there is room and potential; just not potential profits for big brands to push into the market. Furthermore I think that many geek start-up firms lack the experience, finances and organisation to really allow themselves to push for fast expansion or to really market heavily to new gamers. It's an issue and something that I hope a firm like PP or others can start to address. I'd love to see other firms push in and market to new gamers and get more people into the hobby in general.

   
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A couple of my extended nerdherd are fairly hardcore Larpers and the envy inducing pics they post to facey-gram or wotnot are stunning but arguably they border on custom themed holidays, heck one even had a midsized pirate ship, rather than the general perception of larp

But back on topic I think where a lot of other gaming companies struggle is being one trick ponies only having one or two games which even if its really good, like wmh or guildball, eventually gamers gonna gamer and look for the new hotness, even GW fell into that but had the resourses to start addressing that

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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 Overread wrote:
I think for Larping the University scene is what kicked it off. I think there was a core generation or two going through Uni that got it going and managed to keep with it after Uni which let it gain traction that it lacked before.


Ah, fair. College was a long time ago for me! Damn kids with their skateboards and loud music!

 Overread wrote:

I do agree that PP and KS both rose from former GW customers; that GW could bleed those customers to a tune of millions suggests to me that there is room for a competing brand. I do agree with you that if that is the way a competing brand arose then GW would have to take some losses, but as I see it they do have healthy income enough to soak such a change. It might mean that if such a situation arose we might see GW's rapid release rate slow a bit.


I agree there is room for other games- that is the case now, I disagree that there is room for a competing brand at 'something of the scale of gw'. Pp was the closest in over a decade and they ran out of steam awfully quick. More importantly, some of the 'boneheaded' decisions they were making at the time were the exact same decisions gw made twenty years ago or more, and have annoyed players ever since. I think these are the types of decisions made when a small company becomes a big company.

 Overread wrote:

I think GW also realises this "risk" which might be in part why they've put new energy into the specialist games. I think they've seen that there's a market and interest for more than 40K and AoS and that if they don't tap into it, someone else will. If that someone else starts bleeding off GW customers then that means GW is making less from the customers they've invested in to attracting in the first place.


I agree totally. Gw in some ways made these markets years ago with specialist games, and when they retreated to focus on the big 3 (lotr, wfb and 40k) under the mistaken belief that sg's cannibslised sales from the proper purchases,other companies stepped in and grabbed their share of the niche - Corvus belli with infinity etc. Gw had to fight back and there is only so many ways to 'grow' mass model 28mm battles, they ultimately had to go back into sg territory. From their POV it's been a success. Some of their biggest hits these last few years have been the likes of shadespire and necromunda and got people back into the gw ecosphere that simply wouldn't be interested in the big battle games. I am one of those people. I am far more interested in these games (seriously tempted by titanicus too).

 Overread wrote:

Overall I think there is room and potential; just not potential profits for big brands to push into the market. Furthermore I think that many geek start-up firms lack the experience, finances and organisation to really allow themselves to push for fast expansion or to really market heavily to new gamers. It's an issue and something that I hope a firm like PP or others can start to address. I'd love to see other firms push in and market to new gamers and get more people into the hobby in general.


The thing is gw has a staff count that is bigger than the player base of some games. Gw probsbly have individual shops in backwaters with more staff than some companies have employees. Pp has something like thirty employees. I think Corvus belli is something smaller than this. I don't know about the likes of warlord. Then you have the boutiques like anvil industry, which are often 'one guy and his mate' type affairs. There is room for small companies (couple of dozen employees) to make decent smaller games, but I don't think they can ever get lore of new gamers in.

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Deadnight wrote:
Most pp players came from the 40k competitive scene, and I do think some of the baggage came with them (rather than being creative, and exploring the fame it became about 'take this list and win' etc)

No, they brought it on themselves.

Page 5.

I don't care how much they bleat it was 'ironic' and 'just a prank, bro!'; it was a titanic red flag that the games were written to attract the insecure types who'd tied their masculinity - and let's be honest, even in this hobby it was going to be lads - to how well they could CRUSH, KILL AND ANNHILATE the other person because NO FUN WAS ALLOWED and maybe then daddy would love them. As there was, and is, enough of that particular type clogging up internet forums, I had no desire to get anywhere near them in person., And I very much doubt I was alone in that.
   
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To use PP as an example, without singling them out for criticism in this regard.

There is nothing wrong with Warmahorde’s mission statement. At all. Just as GW have always been clear in the ‘treat this as a framework, then go just as nuts as you want’, and are also fairly vocal there’s no right or wrong way.

However, GW have a significant community advantage, due to their stores.

Consider me and Warmachine some years ago, not long after it’s first expansion book.

I was kinda into it. It’s background was still developmental, but the models and game seemed different enough to stand on their own two feet.

Yet I didn’t remain terribly long. My early experiences just weren’t to my taste, so I sold up and moved on. Why, I hear you probably not ask, let alone with much conviction?

The opponent I first played. Rather than being seen as a newcomer in need of education, seems i was just a NooB to be stomped. That game took place in an Edinburgh FLGS, and has been arranged as a ‘getting to grips’ game for me.

Opponent insisted on treating it as an opportunity not to teach me, but to ‘school me’.

Now, perhaps he was lured in by Page 5. Maybe he’s just gets off on NooB Stompong. But suffice to say, I didn’t enjoy it.

For a long, long time, I painted the entire system with that same brush. Yet, that’s not at all fair, is it? I’d played one of how many possible opponents, and has a sucky time.

That’s not really on PP, or their overall community. GW has similar inadequates playing their games. But? GW has its stores. In the U.K. at least, the provide many places where newcomers can be shown The Whole Of The Thing in a fairly comfortable environment.

It’s the stores. All down to the stores.

Remember. PP used as an example without specific criticism of them, their games, or their community.

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Pilum wrote:

No, they brought it on themselves.

Page 5.

I don't care how much they bleat it was 'ironic' and 'just a prank, bro!'; it was a titanic red flag that the games were written to attract the insecure types who'd tied their masculinity - and let's be honest, even in this hobby it was going to be lads - to how well they could CRUSH, KILL AND ANNHILATE the other person because NO FUN WAS ALLOWED and maybe then daddy would love them. As there was, and is, enough of that particular type clogging up internet forums, I had no desire to get anywhere near them in person., And I very much doubt I was alone in that.


I know ymmv, but I can't help but disagree..

I played the game since mk1. In several countries. mk1 p5 was seriously over the top but when it spoke about driving over your grandmas house it was pretty obviously being tongue in cheek. Mk2s was toned down seriously, but still had a very empowering message. Bring your best game, play hard, play fair, explore, don't crutch, dont stomp on the new guy, don't be an ass if you win and don't be all sour If you lose and treat everyone with respect. I distinctly remember the part about page 5 never being an excuse to belittle people. It was a competitive focused game, and didn't apologise (or need to apologise) formthis, but it had an honest message and it tried to promote a good attitude amongst its players.

Anyone using page 5 to do the things you claim was, ironically doing the exact opposite.

For,what it's worth, most of the people I played against were good lads. And some girls. Not the try-hard or,insecure lot with daddy issues looking to capslock CRUSH KILL ANNIHALATE and allow NO FUN. I played since mk1 and was never into these.

found it pretty diverse. I found the players themselves ranged from casual to competitive, with only a small amount of bad apples. I found, at least here in Scotland it tended to attract a more 'mature group' of post college and grown up twenty somethings and thirty somethings. There was probably one person who was into all the capital letters you describe. And he certainly was not appreciated. Most folks in my experience were fairly mature, fairly decent and just enjoyed a good game.

I don't disagree however that pp brought problems onto themselves, sadly, and I also don't disagree that what remains of the WMH community has a not insignificant amount of over-competitive players who are into the capital letters you listed, but I would argue this is less because everyone was like this and more they're what's left. Pp basically had to retrench around the more hardcore players. I will also point out players like this exist throughout nerddom and it's not just a WMH thing.

I do appreciate your perspective though.

Cheers.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:T
I was kinda into it. It’s background was still developmental, but the models and game seemed different enough to stand on their own two feet.
Yet I didn’t remain terribly long. My early experiences just weren’t to my taste, so I sold up and moved on. Why, I hear you probably not ask, let alone with much conviction?
The opponent I first played. Rather than being seen as a newcomer in need of education, seems i was just a NooB to be stomped. That game took place in an Edinburgh FLGS, and has been arranged as a ‘getting to grips’ game for me.
Opponent insisted on treating it as an opportunity not to teach me, but to ‘school me’.
Now, perhaps he was lured in by Page 5. Maybe he’s just gets off on NooB Stompong. But suffice to say, I didn’t enjoy it.
For a long, long time, I painted the entire system with that same brush. Yet, that’s not at all fair, is it? I’d played one of how many possible opponents, and has a sucky time.


Two things. Firstly, the background wasn't developmental at the time. It was actually pretty well developed and if you are interested I'd encourage you to check their old d20 material. It's pretty fantastic. The iron kingdoms was an excellent setting. My biggest disappointment with pp is not doing more with the ikrpg stuff.

Secondly, and more,leaning back towards the on topic, being in Edinburgh I probably know the guy you are talking about. If it's who I think it is, I have also had the misfortune to play him. he was known for being a humourless brick who can never 'tone it down' or 'play what's appropriate' and known for noob stomping, list,tailoring, terrain tailoring, scenario tailoring, banana charges and lots of rules tomfoolery and is generally not,well regarded. I'm not even sure if he still plays but I, and plenty others have warned people,away from him. for what it's worth, I do not take this as some commentary on the WMH community, but I think it's horrible this one guy and one experience soured you on it. I've had something of the same with malifaux. Not even a deliberate stomping but just such a poor learning experience that I had absolutely no interest in going back.

As you say, with gw, they tend to present a broad church of 'how' and seem to be invested in bringing in new people. Ultimately, this is a good thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/21 17:02:09


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Overread wrote:


I think a new firm trying to push in and wanting to make it big would really need to push into the new customer market; penetrating the young market like GW does and securing their own consumer base as that first/early time experience. Or at least once the firm gets its feet under it they have to go after that market. That was, in my view, PP's failing in that even with their PG system it was focused over recruiting existing gamers.


This is something I forgot to add to my post and I agree with. Another reason GW is such a strong force is they're the only company that has the money for marketing towards attracting all new players to the hobby why everyone else is just marketing to attract players away from other games. And the only reason they can is due to their size and dominance and anyone wanting to play can find it pretty much anywhere and there's always new stuff available.

I live in an area with very high density of game stores vs population (Utah), there are about 10 game stores in a 30min drive (probably 15 in 45 min drive), of those that don't carry wargames (3 I think) all of them have GW stuff. If I was looking for Infinity (a trendy game rising in popularity) last I checked 4 had the game but all of the models were from N2 or early N3 and nothing from the past 2 years te stores don't sell enough to order newer stuff (as the only thing they stock is old stuff no one wants) or they order just enough for the people that play the game there.

I know GW gets flack for how much of their product you have to keep on stock at your store to be able to buy from them and other game store policies but it's for reasons like this. If a new player wants to find the current GW stuff and people playing it they easily can. Any other game it's pretty much a crap shoot if you'll be able to drive somewhere, pick it up, and start playing (well assembling) instead of ordering online or via a local store and having to wait 2-5 days.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Another bonus of GW's wobbly balance is that most GW models retain their use through the years. Your basic gaunt kit is old as heck, but still very valid today as it was the day it was released.


I think a lot of newer games, esp skirmish games, get hooked on releasing new models and, whilst not always dropping the old ones, at least pushing them back a bit so that they are less desirable. The result is that their range gets bigger and bigger and if stores fall behind they do end up with "old stock" of models that are not as suitable for the current meta and game.

It's an issue when a game developer is maximising profits on a per-existing customer basis and not maximising them on new customers. Of course I think its also an issue for skirmish games because once you've got one or two of a model you don't "need" (or in some cases are not allowed by the rules) more of that model. So if you want to keep your older fans happy you do have to keep releasing content and adding new things to their armies.

One trick GW does to get around this is semi-regular updates to old models. When you consider that generation 1 models are still valid in 40K and yet few people use them. Even those who have extensive collections of them often replace with newer, better updated models; or they use them alongside modern equivalents.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
Another bonus of GW's wobbly balance is that most GW models retain their use through the years. Your basic gaunt kit is old as heck, but still very valid today as it was the day it was released.

I think a lot of newer games, esp skirmish games, get hooked on releasing new models and, whilst not always dropping the old ones, at least pushing them back a bit so that they are less desirable. The result is that their range gets bigger and bigger and if stores fall behind they do end up with "old stock" of models that are not as suitable for the current meta and game.


Actually its not about getting hooked on releasing new models, this is a business necessity. this is a common trend and isn't necessarily due to power creep et , it's due to the simple fact that new stuff 'sell' better, especially in the immediate time after it's release (most people who want it buy it quickly, rather than waiting three years) whilst older stuff tends to sit there. There is also the consideration of the second hand market. I remember Andy chambers saying that For years, gw considered the second hand market the greatest threat, not the other competitors in the industry. Once a company sells stuff, it then immediately competes with its own backlog. Without new stuff to encourage fresh purchases, a game dies. If a company released four sets in a year for their game and didn't release anything else, but rather just focused on balancing those four sets against each other, it won't actually matter - their game will die.

It's the reality behind the 'wave' nature of ttgs. Most of any company's profits in any given year is from the new stuff they've actually releases that year, not necessarily the 'backlog', hence how our ttgs ultimately get clogged with bloat after a few years. Pp's back catalogue (since they keep coming up) is huge and has some nice models, but it's more or less worthless in terms of cash generation hence their promise a while back of a new faction every year. It's what they need to do to keep mining cash out of the ip.

Gw is probably one of the few that can rely on any appreciable income from the backlog (i.e. The holy trinity of tactical marine, assault marine and devestator marine), but even then, their release schedule is astonishing, and frankly, has a lot to do with their fantastic numbers. If they halved what they released, watch their profits drop.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/21 20:32:03


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





[quote=Overread 789060 10838167 1628bc470e0cbbd1ce537d119082130d.jpg

One trick GW does to get around this is semi-regular updates to old models. When you consider that generation 1 models are still valid in 40K and yet few people use them. Even those who have extensive collections of them often replace with newer, better updated models; or they use them alongside modern equivalents.


ahhh hell no, metal eldars 4 life for me as the only ones ive replaced are jetbikes and wraithguard as models that fall over if a die lands on the same table half is just silly

but the long live span is a thing as whilst i dont play at the mo my 30+ year old infanty could see table time if i dived back in

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Forgot to add a proper conclusion to my last post.

GW’s Stores give them as a company far more control over First Impressions.

Generally speaking, their stores are well laid out, well lit and clean. The staff are, again generally speaking, knowledgeable and enthusiastic. They’ll spend time doing a gaming intro and a painting intro (with a model you can take home)

Their intro games are either Staff taking one side, or playing coach to two people. They make them descriptive and cinematic, helping people buy in to the head canon visuals.

FLGS can and do do this. Of course they do. But, once it’s a FLGS, a manufacturer has no control over that First Impression. Not just of the overall wargaming hobby, but your specific game. A bad first impression and you’ve probably lost that customer.

It’s a pretty major marketing tool which only GW has in its field.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Another benefit is that GW can enforce staff behaviour and monitor it. Customers who have bad experiences are more likely to provide complaints to the company.

Meanwhile if Dave if the local "Press Ganger" or other company "fan rep" then the company has somewhat less influence. They can still get reports about Dave and cut him out of the system, but people turning up to the club are less likely to contact the parent company regarding a random fan introducing them to the game badly and the company hasn't got the same legal tools nor even infrastructure to monitor the community support in the same way as they can employees.

So yep GW can work some wonders with their own staff.


I think this system did break down a bit overseas, certainly I've heard more stories of bad GW staff from the USA and other overseas sites, but I think that in part was due to different regional manager attitudes taking on a more corporate attitude and less of a hobby one. Considering that many of the UK shop staff are basically long term geeks that just hung around long enough to get a job, it might be that in some overseas sites there just isn't that bed of GW indoctrinated geeks to pool suitable employees from. So you do end up with staff who are perhaps well trained, but who lack that extra edge of the fact that they also game when they go home and not just when "on the clock"

   
 
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