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Made in de
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Nuremberg

Pat Mills is obviously a bit of an edgelord sort. I would have expected him to be a bit of a tosser.
Good comics though.

   
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Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

The Redeemer is fun, if a bit cringe at times.



<YOUR AD HERE>
 
   
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Nuremberg

I liked it, but like all of Mills stuff it had it's cringey moments.
He's a good writer though. But never struck me as being particularly interested in being nice.

   
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 Matt Swain wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!





I know that there are aliens in the Dreddverse, but does it have anything akin to Chaos? The only thing that I can think of is Judge Death.


Yeah, satan, in an issue where the judged murdered a christian preacher and crushed a christian movement because they couldn't allow people to think jesus was more powerful than them. Also the dark judges are apparently avatars of some greater power represented by the weird sisters who created them and are apparently playing s0me sort of game across dimensions and realities.

In recent 40 stuff, like the fall of deadworld and the torture garden the dark judges really went all out chaos god level stuff.

The funny thing is batman can always kick dredd's ass pretty easily. So I guess he'd really whup up on the dark judges.



I just looked up the torture garden. Wow, that is pretty Chaos-y and Lovecraftian, and the art is amazing. I love the idea of the Dark Judges.
   
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Yeah, you really get the cosmic horror feel from it. Dark Judges is probably my favorite storyline. Its one of the reasons 40k spoke to me when I was introduced to the lore side of things.

My own idea of chaos is mixed between the 2000AD stuff and early 40k. More horrific than honorific, more bleak than bright, etc...
   
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Yeah, it's easy to try linking the dark judges to chaos but really the only connection is judge mortis being an obvious nurgle follower. The other are hard to like to the chaos gods. I mean tzeentch is represented by fire but judge fire has no tzeentch feel, fear can't really be linked to slaanesh. Death is hard to link to khorne,

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I totally agree with Orlanth, it's 6 and two 3s. Both were written in their time and that was the scifi and fantasy of its time. It was dark and brutal because the time was particularly unpleasant for a lot of people in real life and so artists and writers took that into their settings. Yes 40k was written into being after 2000AD and as a result it definitely provides some inspiration. But then you can't just look at 40k out of context, look at how Warhammer fantasy was brought into being. Consider Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston's Fighting Fantasy, as brutal as they come. It's all tied up around the same period and ideas are pinging off everyone in a creative environment.

As we all do when you are writing something or putting it together, you nick bits from.other people you really like and add that into your own stuff just as other people do to yours. That's one of the most interesting and exciting things about being in a creative space like they were when mags like 2000AD and 40k were being brought to life.

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 Olthannon wrote:
I totally agree with Orlanth, it's 6 and two 3s. Both were written in their time and that was the scifi and fantasy of its time. It was dark and brutal because the time was particularly unpleasant for a lot of people in real life and so artists and writers took that into their settings. Yes 40k was written into being after 2000AD and as a result it definitely provides some inspiration. But then you can't just look at 40k out of context, look at how Warhammer fantasy was brought into being. Consider Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston's Fighting Fantasy, as brutal as they come. It's all tied up around the same period and ideas are pinging off everyone in a creative environment.

As we all do when you are writing something or putting it together, you nick bits from.other people you really like and add that into your own stuff just as other people do to yours. That's one of the most interesting and exciting things about being in a creative space like they were when mags like 2000AD and 40k were being brought to life.


Perhaps that's how it was back then... However, now, looking at Nemesis The Warlock, ABC Warriors, Strontium Dogs and 40K Rogue Trader side by side in 2020, there are too many things that aling for it to be insignificant and just as small piece of the overall cultural fondue as you make it to be.

Again, I am not saying the Tolkiens, Moorcocks, Herberts, Steve Jackson/Ian Livingstone stuff didnt also contribute to it all, but to me personally those influences are something I've been aware of throughout my years with the hobby and RPG's in general. To me, the 2000 AD comics were a "missing piece of the puzzle" that furthers my understanding on the origins. A bit like how finding out about the whole Macross/Robotech/Battletech IP wars of the 80s & 90s furthered my understanding of how those things relate to one another.

I wonder, have you read the old 2000 AD stuff lately? Not saying you haven't, just curious to know if you are only coming to this discussion based on your recollection of those times around 70s-80s..

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/07 14:08:34


 
   
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Forgive me, not dismissing the view that 2000AD didn't influence 40k, I meant in my post that indeed it did all of it burgeoning together. Just to me I don't think it was perhaps utterly direct, more osmosis?

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We need to also recognise that 2000AD is stuck in the late 70's early 80's. The comic may have moved on but our recollections have not, neither has the popular culture. A lot of the characters that tauist mentions were from the early progs. The classic stories and characters people remember are from then.
Some notable characters finished their story arcs in the 80's, including Nemesis the Warlock which ran from 80-89. Strontium Dog ended in 1990 though the character was resurrected later.
If you are comparing side by side in 2020/1 you are comparing now to then. 40K has actually moved on a lot, 2000AD is a shadow of itself.

What people remember from 2000AD are the early influences in the storyline, but the tempo of the comic was the metaculture of the 70's and 80's which a lot of media shared. Games Workshop had a lot of staff crossovers with 2000AD because it was a small workplace in the larger economy but both 2000AD and Games Workshop were both co-influenced by the times.

As Olthannon correctly points out early GW products were gritty, Fighting Fantasy racked up a body count of adventurers. Early D&D included a lot of save or die with poor save profiles. Runequest and later Rolemaster were popular at the time with their extreme brutal combat systems and GW was heavily invested in these via White Dwarf. In the early 80's White Dwarf and 2000AD were almost corunners, with White Dwarf characters and characterisations having a lot of similarities, though White Dwarf mainly included their characters as parody.

Cursed Earth? Polluted hiveworlds? Both stem from the post-apocalypse craze of the time. The turn of the 80's brought us Mad Max with the two early films showing both ends of the transition. This was an era of the tail end of the nuclear nightmare, which in the 50's and 60's had people thinking we are all about to die in nuclear fire, and people in the 70's and 80's thinking about what life would be like after the bomb. The 70's was an era of nihilism and depression, the economic collapse, social unrest, post-Vietnam and mass scale industrial action they all added to the zeitgeist. Add into the mix the dark fantasy from a more upbeat era of Moorcock that followed well into the times and the rise of interest in Lovecraftian themes and you will see that it would be more unusual if there were not a cultural cross pollenization of the gaming and comics media of the time.

Bottom line, Games Workshop were not copying 2000AD, they both drank from the same well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 09:11:44


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All may be true, but i still think that the nightmare imperium was at least partially based on the idea of mega gakky one in judge dredd.

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There was an interview I saw recently on U-tube with Rick Priestley where he mentions Slaine in passing as an influence on some miniatures he had painted or worked on. But this was in regards to fantasy and not sci-fi.


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 Matt Swain wrote:
All may be true, but i still think that the nightmare imperium was at least partially based on the idea of mega gakky one in judge dredd.


Orlanth has the right of it.

Both 2000ad and GW don’t exist in a cultural vacuum. The founders of both are in the same age range, meaning they’ll have grown up with much the same influences. This includes pop culture, and a particularly change in the face of Britain (post imperial, midst of a serious economic downturn, end of industrialisation, and eventually the impact of Thatcherism and the free market).

Both are also clearly anti-authoritarian, with distinct Punk influences. And at the risk of sounding overly, well, maybe dismissive? They’re both very, very British.

I really could spout on for hours about this, and some of it might even be entirely accurate!

But to boil it down? Without 2000ad, 40k would likely be much the same, because both are reactions to the same cultural stimulus. Would Arbites look the same? Probably not. But they’d likely act the same, as both Judges and Arbites are satires on paramilitary Police forces (all body armour and violence). And both were at least partially informed by shows such as Blake’s Seven



In terms of Necromunda/Confrontation gangs? Well, both have influences from the look of Sigue Sigue Sputnik. Who?



That’s Sigue Sigue Sputnik.

Then there’s Heavy Metal. Both the film and genre of music (my second favourite, behind Punk/Post Punk).

Going back to the political scene, without any commentary or judgement there on? Miner’s Strike, Brixton Riots, Cardboard City, general civil strife up and down the country as the UK’s economic system was shifted. Unions were demonised and shattered. Right Wing press barons started to exert serious influence on the political structure. Industries were forcibly closed in some areas, with nothing offered in replacement. Poll Tax Riots. 4 day weeks due to power shortages. The general decline and then privatisation of previously nationalised industries.

Suffice to say, again without any commentary, there was a lot of unhappiness in the U.K. at all ends of the country. That....doesn’t pass without influencing creative types. From urban decay left behind by closed industry, to the reaction of the general populace.

Neither 2000ad or 40k would’ve been where they are today if what they made of it hadn’t tapped into that zeitgeist.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/10 19:35:14


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I'd be interested to know if any of the early 40k writers (Rick Priestly et al) actually knew John Wagner, Alan Grant etc.) It's already been pointed out that a lot of the artists from that time did work for both, and that was quite literally painting the universes that we came to imagine.

Interesting post by MDG above about those awful haircuts Think it's undeniable there was a 'fashion' for SF and fantasy that both 2000AD and GW tapped into, even if there wasn't any direct collaboration.

I definitely think it's very likely that some elements (thinking of one ABC Warriors storyline in particular about Chaos vs. Order, as well as a lot of the Slaine stuff) either borrowed from Michael Moorcock and his idea of a pantheism of gods and 'chaos' or else one borrowed the idea from the other publication - would need to look at dates.

One thing that (I don't think) has been mentioned is the very dark sense of humour/satire that was present in 2000AD and early 40k, which I think (and I definitely remember thinking this at the time) really made them seem like birds of a feather. This has almost completely gone now from 40k and has been for some time, but still survives to an extent in 2000AD (although I don't think is on the same level as some of the earlier 80s/90s with Ro-Busters, ABC Warriors etc.)

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I just don't see how MDG and Orlanth, with full respect, can so confidently say that 40K was not influenced by 2000AD. I agree, they were coming from a common cultural place, but that does not preclude influence or really suggest that 40K would be the same without 2000AD.

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






The question is how much 2000ad influenced 40k, not whether it was influenced at all

Most of the earliest 2000ad strips lean on other media as their influence. From there, creativity is added and say, Dredd is born.

Remove 2000ad, and I think 40k would likely have still come to be. It may have been a different beast, but not radically so.

Let’s have a look at 2000ads early line up.

You’ve got Invasion!, Dan Dare, Harlem Heroes, Flesh and M.A.C.H.1.

None of those are anything like 40k. Judge Dredd debuted shortly after, and eventually became the poster boy everyone knows and loves - but his and MC-1’s evolution took time.

MC-1 is also quite different to a Hive City. In terms of Termight and Torquemada? Well, hen is the arch bigot - but no corpse on a throne commanding a galactic empire.

Nor has 2000ad ever really dabbled in the super soldier trope, barring Rogue Trooper who bears little design resemblance to anything in 40k.

So whilst the aesthetic of 2000ad likely influenced 40k, both were reactions to the same cultural stimuli, with overall far more differences than similarities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/11 12:07:38


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I'm not sure trying to look for direct comparisons between characters and archetypes (between 40k and 2000AD), and therefore saying there was little influence, is the right way to think of it.

For me it is about the 'feel' of the two universes and their inhabitants. And to me, that is an absolute no-brainer. Reading RT and 2000AD went absolutely hand in hand when I was a kid, and I think there were very few 40k fans at that time (and visa-versa, 2000AD readers) that weren't aware of the other material. That extremely dark, very British view of dystopia, that is in fact so depressive that it actually comes out the other side and becomes almost humerous.

I think that's the key difference nowadays - how that sense of humour and satirical view of dysoptia has diverged from modern 40k (whether you think that is good or not is subjective, but a good deal of it has gone).

This was a long time ago now, 30 years or more, so I struggle to give more evidence than a very anecdotal and qualitative statement about this kind of thing. But, to me it's an absolute triviality. If you read Rogue Trader, the supporting books and some of the other articles that were around that time, they were absolutely birds of a feather.

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it

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 Pacific wrote:
I'm not sure trying to look for direct comparisons between characters and archetypes (between 40k and 2000AD), and therefore saying there was little influence, is the right way to think of it.

For me it is about the 'feel' of the two universes and their inhabitants. And to me, that is an absolute no-brainer. Reading RT and 2000AD went absolutely hand in hand when I was a kid, and I think there were very few 40k fans at that time (and visa-versa, 2000AD readers) that weren't aware of the other material. That extremely dark, very British view of dystopia, that is in fact so depressive that it actually comes out the other side and becomes almost humerous.

I think that's the key difference nowadays - how that sense of humour and satirical view of dysoptia has diverged from modern 40k (whether you think that is good or not is subjective, but a good deal of it has gone).

This was a long time ago now, 30 years or more, so I struggle to give more evidence than a very anecdotal and qualitative statement about this kind of thing. But, to me it's an absolute triviality. If you read Rogue Trader, the supporting books and some of the other articles that were around that time, they were absolutely birds of a feather.

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it


Absolutely! The bonkers and very black humour laced narrative has that British thing going on in both. But it's also the little nods here and there, like the chainsword & chainaxe Torquemada uses, the Termight warrior ladies who sport an ultramarine symbol in their helmets etc.. I think many of the little things have hidden references like that in Rogue Trader.

In hindsight, I should have titled the thread "How much 2000AD has influenced Rogue Trader?", would have been a more precise and perhaps less controversial sounding topic, especially since that "tone of voice" has been absent from 40K proper for editions now, but oh well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/11 16:03:46


 
   
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Modern 40K is much more of a power fantasy like an American Superhero comic rather than the sort of thing that was in 2000AD, where you might have power but it is likely all for naught as you achieve nothing or only terrible things or stagnation with your power if you even have it.

Rogue Trooper is probably one of the biggest power fantasy protagonists in 2000AD but he achieves bugger all really. Nu Earth is still a hellscape riven by war no matter what he does.

   
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 Da Boss wrote:
Modern 40K is much more of a power fantasy like an American Superhero comic rather than the sort of thing that was in 2000AD, where you might have power but it is likely all for naught as you achieve nothing or only terrible things or stagnation with your power if you even have it.

Rogue Trooper is probably one of the biggest power fantasy protagonists in 2000AD but he achieves bugger all really. Nu Earth is still a hellscape riven by war no matter what he does.


Speaking of Rogue Trooper, it feels to me very similar to the many WW2 comics I read as a child. It has the same style of narrative and the same kind of tropes/narrative cliches. Although I like the way the space germans look (Nort army? do I remember that right), current 30K auxilian lasgunners have that same feel!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 11:09:42


 
   
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Given Foundry produced a large range of citadel derived Judge Dredd miniatures? https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/2000ad They were very much aware of it and many of the 40k original sculpts were resculpts of this range and directly influenced by it. This isn't however a bad thing but is how pop cuture works (so lonag as you ignore GW's lawyers and Chapterhouse......)

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 Pacific wrote:
I'm not sure trying to look for direct comparisons between characters and archetypes (between 40k and 2000AD), and therefore saying there was little influence, is the right way to think of it.

For me it is about the 'feel' of the two universes and their inhabitants. And to me, that is an absolute no-brainer. Reading RT and 2000AD went absolutely hand in hand when I was a kid, and I think there were very few 40k fans at that time (and visa-versa, 2000AD readers) that weren't aware of the other material. That extremely dark, very British view of dystopia, that is in fact so depressive that it actually comes out the other side and becomes almost humerous.

I think that's the key difference nowadays - how that sense of humour and satirical view of dysoptia has diverged from modern 40k (whether you think that is good or not is subjective, but a good deal of it has gone).

This was a long time ago now, 30 years or more, so I struggle to give more evidence than a very anecdotal and qualitative statement about this kind of thing. But, to me it's an absolute triviality. If you read Rogue Trader, the supporting books and some of the other articles that were around that time, they were absolutely birds of a feather.

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it

I totally agree with this post, looking for direct comparisons is more suitable for a thread called "How much exactly has 40K plagiarised 2000 AD?" rather than the influence on 40K. 40K started to drift much more into its own thing around 3rd edition but even things like Necromunda and Mordheim had strong 2000 AD vibes as regards to the humour, the style, etc. Yeah, GW and Tharg and his droids were all drawing from the same cultural pool but if you think that 2000 AD wasn't a major part of that cultural pool for GW then you're on the wrong track entirely.
   
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I have to say that a few other sources influenced 40k too. Asimov's foundation series made the idea of technology being a religion and ministerted to by priests a thing, and in one scene a 'tech priest" shuts down an old space battleship found adrift in space and revamped by 'cursing' it, which was a cover for what we'd call hacking today.

You can see how the church of science must have influenced the admech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Science



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 Da Boss wrote:
I just don't see how MDG and Orlanth, with full respect, can so confidently say that 40K was not influenced by 2000AD. I agree, they were coming from a common cultural place, but that does not preclude influence or really suggest that 40K would be the same without 2000AD.


They are siblings, not parent-child. GW grew up alongside 2000AD. Look at early White Dwarfs the mentality that led to 40K was already there, from the outset. The grit was integral to the culture. 40K is Morcockian fantasy in space, with added nihilism, early 40K was actually darker than it is now with very few positive tropes. 40K is way more grimdark than 2000Ad ever was. Mega City one has problems but the judges are how they are because society needs them to be. If you choose not to break the law the judges have your back, if you didn't commit the crime the judge will let you go etc etc. There is a lot of mitigation complete absent from 40K. A Mega City justice department actual does care about the citizenry and the city in a way an Imperial Governor seldom does, citizens have rights, welfare and prospects, all three overtaxed by overpopulation but they are there, and if a Mega City is attacked City Def will help the populace and the judges again will do what they can to defend the citizenry, they are not exploitable numbers.
Judge Dredd is about the consequences of environmental collapse and catastrophic overpopulation, 40K is about ultra expediency, inefficiency and greed resulting in a recurring holocaust.
I really am not seeing where 40K stems from 2000AD in any way that doesn't reflect other tropes of the time. Yes 40K themes occurred in Thargs Future Shocks, but most of those were nihilistic episodes based on pre-existing cultures, and nobody with an education should consider the excesses, mentality and moral philosophy of the Inquisition or Adeptus Terra based on any comic when there are horrible realm world equivalents from our history, or in the case of the times from their present in the form of the Soviet Union.

The closest to a crossover was Rogue Trooper as a super soldier, which is a central theme to 40K, but the even there are closer parallels. Lets go through the (clearly non exhaustive) list.

Rogue Trooper - eugenics program theory from 1930's
Judge Dredd/Mega City One/Halo Jones - fairly original but with no 40K connexion, basically a mess of many usually opposed cultural references
Strontium Dog - superhero comics, with radiation mutation being a common theme
Nemesis - Scarlet Pimpernel, maybe a bit of Blakes 7
Slaine - Conan

and for 40K

most aliens - their fantasy equivalent
Imperium of Man - Soviet Union, with Witchfinder General, neo-feudal capitalism, agressively policed religious dogma and Imperial Roman politics
Adeptus Astartes - Starship Troopers

Some artworks had similar authorship because the creative circle overlapped, but that wasn't one copying the other as much as both hiring the same guys with their own artistic vision.

Meanwhile I can see echoes of Sauron, Moriarty and the Mekon in both 40K/Warhammer and 2000AD not so much as in they are just the endbosses but in how they think. British fantasy villains tended to have well rounded thinking and philosophies, and were not moustache twirlers a la Ming the Merciless.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say that a few other sources influenced 40k too. Asimov's foundation series made the idea of technology being a religion and ministerted to by priests a thing, and in one scene a 'tech priest" shuts down an old space battleship found adrift in space and revamped by 'cursing' it, which was a cover for what we'd call hacking today.
You can see how the church of science must have influenced the admech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Science


This. Should have mentioned the Foundation trilogy as a clear influencer.



 Horla wrote:
 Pacific wrote:

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it

I totally agree with this post, looking for direct comparisons is more suitable for a thread called "How much exactly has 40K plagiarised 2000 AD?" rather than the influence on 40K. 40K started to drift much more into its own thing around 3rd edition but even things like Necromunda and Mordheim had strong 2000 AD vibes as regards to the humour, the style, etc. Yeah, GW and Tharg and his droids were all drawing from the same cultural pool but if you think that 2000 AD wasn't a major part of that cultural pool for GW then you're on the wrong track entirely.



The thing is Rick Priestly, Andy Chambers et al, were reading 2000Ad progs on a weekly basis, it was the thing people of our generation and cultural background did. However that influenced far less than they might themselves suspect. Take this as a point, Gw has been very clearly litigious about ;their' IP because they thought it was theirs. They read their 2000AD and wrote their own stuff.
But their actual influencers were Moorcock, Tolkien Asimov and Heinlein.
The best comparison to 2000AD is that it was the only media of its kind at the time, somewhere where you could get imnaginative SF and fantasy. But Doctor Who and Blakes 7 were also producing well throught through characters and plots at the time, with the 70's being the high water mark of Doctor Who.
Meanwhile some imagery from 2000AD influenced imagery of 40K because the artists were in the same room same mold or same body for both productions.......
while....
the Adeptus Mechanicus ARE the Tech-priests of Terminus
the Adeptus Astartes ARE the Mobile Infantry
the Inquisition ARE Hammer horror's Witchfinder General, plus some Monty Python and of course the real thing.
Chaos ARE Chaos (as depicted by Moorcock, and yes they admited that one while still trying to trademark the chaos star)

Other strong influences are Gloranthan Runequest, and its convoluted theology and spaghetti like moral threading, which GW published under licenced. Much of the paradox of Imperial morality stems from greg Staffords work on the same.

Saying 40K copies 2000AD is two dimensional at best, ignored the deep cultural well that existing in the 70's and 80's, which is largely forgotten today. I was active at the time and drank from the same well too, andc can see the origins of the tropes. 2000AD is what you see and is a shallow answer, Moorcock, Tolkien, Asimov and Heinlein, plus British Sf television of the time are what actually lurks beneath. Remember the true influencers are not the media you watch everyday but the media you grew up with and shaped your thinking. Most GW designers had already shaped thinking before 2000Ad was a thing bercvause they were the same generation as 2000AD writers and illustrators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/15 00:01:42


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
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San Jose, CA

 Orlanth wrote:

Nemesis - Scarlet Pimpernel, maybe a bit of Blakes 7
.

Hadn't thought about it but now that you said it, totally see Scarlet Pimpernel.
Bravo
I love Blakes 7
I love Nemesis
makes sense
   
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Ireland

 Orlanth wrote:
Saying 40K copies 2000AD is two dimensional at best, ignored the deep cultural well that existing in the 70's and 80's, which is largely forgotten today. I was active at the time and drank from the same well too, andc can see the origins of the tropes. 2000AD is what you see and is a shallow answer, Moorcock, Tolkien, Asimov and Heinlein, plus British Sf television of the time are what actually lurks beneath. Remember the true influencers are not the media you watch everyday but the media you grew up with and shaped your thinking. Most GW designers had already shaped thinking before 2000Ad was a thing bercvause they were the same generation as 2000AD writers and illustrators.

I'm certainly not trying to say that 40K copies 2000AD because, as I point out in my post, that amounts closer to plagiarism than to influence - like you can be influenced by Heironymous Bosch and never paint a picture of a demon playing a trumpet with its arse. Nor is anyone trying to say (or at least most are not) that 2000AD is 40K's sole influence, it's absolutely a mix of all those things you mention - and more. There's military and political history, mythology, weird fiction, Gothic horror, Hollywood and homegrown cinema, punk and heavy metal, contemporary news and events, and lots more than even just the various sci fi and fantasy we've largely discussed in this thread. I still think 2000AD is a major chunk of 40K's DNA precisely for the reason you mention: it was the major conduit in the UK for most of the sci fi and fantasy ideas (either original 2000AD ideas or older influences filtered through modern storytelling). Even in the 90s it was about the only thing you could reliably pick up in a local newsagent that covered these things, White Dwarf or other comics (that weren't Beano or The Dandy) only existed in the big newsagents in town.
   
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Nuremberg

Absolutely nobody in this thread at any point has said GW has copied 2000AD. We are talking about influence and cross pollination, in both directions! I really cannot understand the sensitivity and defensiveness to this point from several posters. Is it because GW are often accused of ripping things off and people have gotten used to defending them? It's just silly. GW obviously rip everything off, that's why they are great! They ripped off everything they were excited about and mixed it all together with their life experience to create something awesome.

It's no less awesome for not being totally original or whatever. Rather than trying to fruitlessly argue that there is no way that there is any 2000AD influence on 40K I reckon it would be useful to reflect on why you would feel the need to make such an argument at all. It is baffling to me.

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






There’s no sensitivity. Just deeper explanations, including the social and economic climate of Britain that both sets of creators grew up in.

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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s no sensitivity. Just deeper explanations, including the social and economic climate of Britain that both sets of creators grew up in.


Indeed, everything influences everything connected to it. Saying 2000AD influenced 40K is redundant because everything else in SF that was connected was an influencer, some as things to copy others as things to avoid.
but the find the key influencers, which is what people think by the concept of an influencer, means to go much deeper.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
 
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