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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

One thing to keep in mind is that within any time period its possible for different people to come up with very similar ideas such as one might suspect they worked together or one influenced the other, when in actuality its simply happenstance. Because both of those creators were influenced by similar earlier creative works that shaped the ideas they made.

When you then look back on those times from the outside you can then make false connections because you see the direct similarities rather than the different smaller elements that contributed toward both creations.

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




United Kingdom

Its also possible for the creators of 2000ad and 40K to have been influenced heavily by the time they lived in. Anybody who lived through the 70's would agree most of it was a total mess. Strikes, the winter of discontent. A feeling of doom and gloom especially from around the mid 70's into the early 80's .A society that seemed friendly but could also be more violent then today. The IRA in Ireland and bombings. Then the constant threat of Nuclear annihilation. We even went through the odd nuclear drill at school by quickly making a bunker by using our tables. I could go on.

But the state of the country certainly played a part in what was to become 2000ad.That feeling of the era was certainly present in many programs.

Remember not to wash my brush out in coffee cup today. 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Do you guys feel it would be in some way bad if 40K was influenced by 2000AD? Justs comes off a bit defensive from some of the posts here? Could be my interpretation.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




United Kingdom

It would be interesting if some of the ideas for the fluff of 40k came from 2000ad. Not at all bad, but there would of been many other influences as well.

Its just a huge time gap between them. Rouge Trader appeared around 1987 and 2000ad as long ago as 1977. That is some 10 years for some ideas to seep from one to the other.

But there are just so many other influences that would of tainted either one or both of them.

A good example could be the book Starship Troopers released in the 1950's.

Remember not to wash my brush out in coffee cup today. 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 tauist wrote:
Andykp wrote:
In answer to the original question, as much as Tolkien and Dune.


I understand what you mean in that pretty much everything in scifi/fantasy fiction which was released after those two have been influenced. However in 2000AD, I think the influences are more in the small details and now that I've read a fair bit of Nemesis, the 40K Rogue Trader book is just screaming the obvious influence of the whole 2000 AD universe. The bonkers techno-barbarism and anarchy, witty texts written in armour and weapons, the whole underlying vibe of dark humour and nihilism.. After some Nemesis, it all makes so much more sense to me than before.

I'm just very happy I found out about this connection. It's very inspiring to me and gives me a lot of ideas for Rogue Trader -era fluff I can come up with. Modern 40K is trodding a complete different path, and this stuff is completely unhinged in comparison. Its obvious to me now why Rogue Trader was kind of an open-ended roleplaying game - It bloody well had to be if anyone would have tried to keep up with all this weirdness!

It also makes me speculate how current 40K could be interpreted if Nemesis was one of the chaos gods and Torquemada was a high Lord of Terra, or even Emperor himself.. that would make all the existing lore a conspiracy theorist's wet dream! (It'd also make me start a Chaos army hehe)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Duskweaver wrote:
I know I've mentioned this before in another thread, but Pat Mills, who co-created 2000AD and wrote Nemesis the Warlock, also wrote the Redeemer series for Black Library and explicitly made the eponymous character an expy of Torquemada from Nemesis. You can't get much closer than that for 2000AD influence on 40K.


Interesting! I'll have a look at it as well, thanks for pointing it out.


Glad you like it, there is a definite feel to the early 40K that has been lost over time but the influences are still there, hive cities, arbites obviously but the gangs of necromunda etc. Read between the lines and 2000AD is still there. Soak up that early law and let your imagination go wild. Make a chaos army that worships a lesser known god. Full of techno barbarians. I was always inspired to but never got round to developing a slaver army with walkers inspired by rogue trader and using the necromunda gangers.

In my answer to you I wasn’t trying to underplay the influence of 2000AD but to say it was as great as the more obvious influences.
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I think there is cross pollination in both directions. I definitely read stories in 2000AD that seemed to me to be 40K inspired (Glimmer Rats was about a group of future soldiers fighting horrors from an interdimensional breach for example).

And I think it is very much just the guys writing 40K being inpsired by stuff and paying homage to it rather than "ripping it off" because they had no idea the game would get to be so big so they just stuffed all the things they liked into it.

Certainly Dune and Tolkien play a big part in it, and also just trying to reuse stuff from Warhammer Fantasy but IN SPAAAACE, which is why the Holy Roman Empire is sort of the model for the Imperium. And then real world horrors like fascism, totalitarian communism and eugenics are mixed in to try to evoke the most dystopian future possible.

But you can't read Nemesis and not think "Yeah, the guys who made 40K read this!" The art style is similar and a lot of what we would consider typical 40Kisms are abundant.

   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

2000ad was definately an influence on 40k and that's definately a good thing.

I have been trying to get hold of foundry games 28mm Joe Pineapples to use as a Vindicaire Assassin.

In fact it would be awesome to do an ABC Warriors themed ad-mech army but it's a little beyond my skill and finances right now.

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






 PaddyMick wrote:
2000ad was definately an influence on 40k and that's definately a good thing.

I have been trying to get hold of foundry games 28mm Joe Pineapples to use as a Vindicaire Assassin.

In fact it would be awesome to do an ABC Warriors themed ad-mech army but it's a little beyond my skill and finances right now.


I was just thinking about the same, trying to come up how one could represent those dudes in something like Kill Team for example. Would be rather hard to fit it into existing fluff unless they would be a merc outfit for something like a Rogue Trader; their machine spirits are too sophisticated to not be heretk in the current lore.. Mechanicus and the Inquisition would consider them abominations of the highest order.

I find a lot of the aesthetics of the comics really cool in a quirky retro way that isn't exactly represented in the modern miniatures anymore. They do that buck rogersesque thing for sure now, but the straight line-heavy cyber stuff seems to now be almost completely relegated to T'au faction models? It'd be super cool to see though! You'd probably have to kitbash and convert like crazy to get anywhere near something like that.

There's at least one M&P blog on this board which captures some of that 2000AD aesthetic superbly IIRC. Can't remember the exact thread but his army featured scratch built walker, a scratch built ship, some sort of big head on robotic walking legs and so on.. I need to check it out again! It was a really inspiring looking army.

EDIT: Here it is, weirdingway's Navigator Army! Its like straight out of the comics now that I look it with a "2000AD" lens (I dont mean to say he is ripping anything off here, just pointing out this guy has that elusive scifi style nailed down proper! Crazy good)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584689.page

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/01/03 20:09:00


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
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Leicester, UK

Thanks for the link, that is a very cool blog.

I hadn't got as far as fluff, was just thinking models, but you're right, the warriors are not a fit for ad-mech. hmmmmmm.....

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Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Joe Pineapples.
Vindicare assassin.
Make up your own mind.



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Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/04 05:07:25


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!





I know that there are aliens in the Dreddverse, but does it have anything akin to Chaos? The only thing that I can think of is Judge Death.
   
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Well, there’s Literal Satan, plus lots of interdimensional gribblies.


   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Many of the early Imperial army models were repurposed from 2000AD related figures. Rogue Trooper soldiers, Civ Def guys from Judge Dredd etc. There was even an early supplement co branded for 40k and the Dredd RPG. There's literally no mystery here.



Here's a missing link for you, early 40k Arbites prototypes literally made by re sculpting JD heads.



Still available from Foundry.

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/ex-citadel-games-workshop-models/products/ba001-empirical-absolution-and-liquidation-squad

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!



Still common themes in post-War Britain.

Mutants, just as with the X-Men, represent “Other”. The authoritarian regime is a critique and send up of Thatcherism and Reagan type politics.

Where 2000ad served as a British Mirror to Marvel and DC, 40k is a British Mirror on SciFi. They’re both largely satirical commentaries on a world becoming increasingly right wing. Both are of appeal to The Disaffected Yoof, growing up living with the consequences of the older generation.

The roughly shared aesthetic is the same. New, glittering structures amidst the ruin of times gone by. For an example based on historical photos? I’d recommend looking into London Docklands. During the height of the British Empire, it was a bustling hub. When that era ended, it entered serious urban decay. Now? Well, it’s where my office happens to be (not that I’ve been there since March!). And it’s where Canary Wharf sits (previously Europe’s financial capital. Unsure on that right now)...right in the middle of Tower Hamlets, one of the UK’s most deprived areas.

That’s just the one area I’m familiar with, but post-Industrial decline was across the U.K. And without getting into the politics of it, some areas are still in the resulting economic slump.

That’s the backdrop of 40k. That’s the backdrop of 2000ad. It’s also the backdrop of Punk, post-Punk and even the rave scene in the U.K.

   
Made in us
Stubborn Hammerer




Sweden

Wonderful thread in every way, folks.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where 2000ad served as a British Mirror to Marvel and DC, 40k is a British Mirror on SciFi.


This makes a lot of sense, from personal experience. I never understood the appeal of Marvel and DC at all, while I've always loved British humour and fiction from an early age. American stuff is usually so simplistic and disconnected from human history and real life with its glimmering power fantasies, while British creators (satirical or not) tends to lean into what's actually interesting with humanity.

Bless Britannia, with loving regards from Sweden.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/04 09:22:52


   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!





I know that there are aliens in the Dreddverse, but does it have anything akin to Chaos? The only thing that I can think of is Judge Death.


Yeah, satan, in an issue where the judged murdered a christian preacher and crushed a christian movement because they couldn't allow people to think jesus was more powerful than them. Also the dark judges are apparently avatars of some greater power represented by the weird sisters who created them and are apparently playing s0me sort of game across dimensions and realities.

In recent 40 stuff, like the fall of deadworld and the torture garden the dark judges really went all out chaos god level stuff.

The funny thing is batman can always kick dredd's ass pretty easily. So I guess he'd really whup up on the dark judges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/04 18:51:23


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Reading ABC warriors Mek tales 01 ATM which has the continuation of the Nemesis storyline. The monad in the comic is the craziest looking rendition of some chaotic manifestation I've seen in a while! However, according to the comic, the monad is pure evil, unlike khaos which is said to being a mystical "amoral" power, but is said that could change into being purely evil.. So the Nemesis interpretation of Khaos isn't same as 40K's, unless we consider that "Khaos" is just one aspect of 40K's Chaos (Tzeentch perhaps?)

This is just my personal speculation and conjecture, I'm not claiming these are anything more.. just thinking out loud

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 08:25:39


 
   
Made in in
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Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

It can be assumed that 40k happens in the far future of the Megacity 1/Rogue Trooper/ABC Warriors universe.

 
   
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It can be assumed that 40k happens in the far future of the Megacity 1/Rogue Trooper/ABC Warriors universe.


Dredd's universe is set in the near-future, and is not the same as that of Rogue Trooper. ABC Warriors I am not sure about but it seems to be further forward than Dredd although there have been some crossovers (it depends on the story I think).

My painting and modeling blog:

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Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






IIRC the pet "Satanus" in Nemesis was brought from Judge Dredd times into the story. I think they even fed one judge to the monster?

I got the feeling that many of the original 2000 AD storylines could interact whenever the writers deemed necessary. This suggests they were all connected somehow, but sure enough, many seem to occupy separate timelines.

Just finished reading all the Nemesis books. Overall I enjoyed the story although I must say I preferred the first volume of the three, things kinda stagnated from there on a bit. The illustration style was awesome though, some of the bigger pictures with technical stuff and the chaotic manifestations of the Monad were particular highlights.

I will be taking a look at Strontium Dogs next. The space pirates and mutants in 40K might find some roots in this stuff, judging from the first few stories I've skimmed through.. I think so far my 2000AD faves are definitely S.D. and Nemesis, Rogue Trooper book one and ABC Mek files 01 seem a bit monotonus and onedimensional "war stories" for the most part? But overall I'm loving it and my enthusiasm for Rogue Trader has been reinvigorated! Heck I might even have to get into Blackstone Fortress

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 16:47:09


 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Speaking of 2000AD did you know one of their short stories was later turned into a movie that was actually pretty good and successful?

Thing is the makers didn't credit or acknowledge 2000 AD leading to an ugly lawsuit and keeping the movie out of circulation for a while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_(film)

Despite the graphics looking like 80's video games hardware holds up fairly well ad is still worth a look if you're into 40k or 2000AD.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 tauist wrote:
IIRC the pet "Satanus" in Nemesis was brought from Judge Dredd times into the story. I think they even fed one judge to the monster?

I got the feeling that many of the original 2000 AD storylines could interact whenever the writers deemed necessary. This suggests they were all connected somehow, but sure enough, many seem to occupy separate timelines.

Just finished reading all the Nemesis books. Overall I enjoyed the story although I must say I preferred the first volume of the three, things kinda stagnated from there on a bit. The illustration style was awesome though, some of the bigger pictures with technical stuff and the chaotic manifestations of the Monad were particular highlights.

I will be taking a look at Strontium Dogs next. The space pirates and mutants in 40K might find some roots in this stuff, judging from the first few stories I've skimmed through.. I think so far my 2000AD faves are definitely S.D. and Nemesis, Rogue Trooper book one and ABC Mek files 01 seem a bit monotonus and onedimensional "war stories" for the most part? But overall I'm loving it and my enthusiasm for Rogue Trader has been reinvigorated! Heck I might even have to get into Blackstone Fortress


Fairly sure Satanus (or maybe his Mum?) first showed up in Flesh!, one of the strips in the first ever Prog

   
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Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

 tauist wrote:


I got the feeling that many of the original 2000 AD storylines could interact whenever the writers deemed necessary. This suggests they were all connected somehow, but sure enough, many seem to occupy separate timelines.



2000AD did an anniversary story called Helter Skelter (IIRC) where due to time-travel/multiverse shenanigans characters from just about every strip cameoed.

So um, yeah.

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






There’s also 2000ad’s shockingly wide impact on the wider world of comics and Sci-Fi.

Not only has it created absolutely iconic strips, but any Big Name in the industry that happens to be British has almost certainly been printed in 2000ad.

No. Seriously. If you’ve got one in mind, Google their name, adding 2000ad, and I’m confident you’ll get a match.

The same for British born comic book artists.

Some even got their start in Tharg’s most hallowed Progs. And regular Squaxx De Thargo know to look out for Big Names making a return every now and then.

It’s never a bad time to get into 2000ad, and discover some truly Zarjazz Thrill-Power!

Borag-Thung!

(No. I’ve not been drinking. Just frothing with sheer ghafflebette scrotnig enthusiasm!)

   
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

The Gothic and Eldritch a.k.a. Jes Goodwin's old sketchbook, had several liner notes pretty much calling out and referring to 2000AD as one of the biggest influences for some of the design aspects of early 40k: Arbites being based on Dredd, the early robot designs inspired by the ABC Warriors and so on.

Rogue Trader, way back when 40k was still a pretty wild concept, is also full of nods and references to 2000AD.

And yeah, 2000AD and GW's talent pool has over the years seen a great many crossovers. A lot of GW authors got their start / made their name with 2000AD as writers for their comics and even the great Pat Mills got in on the 40k fun by doing the Redeemer for GW.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Consider a relatively modern entry in the form of Dan Abentt’s “Insurrection”. It’s set in the Dreddiverse, but I don’t remember Dredd himself turning up in it. In the Hachette “Judge Dredd Mega Collection”, Mr Abnett clearly states his work on 40k heavily influenced things. And the art?
It's a great read and Dan has clearly stated that he wanted to do "40k in 2000AD" with those two books. Given that he's had a crapton of Ghost novels under his belt, reading these was a pleasant experience. As for Dredd not being there, he deliberately left the actual time it took place undefined, it was just something that took place sometime during the reign of the Department of Justice. Also, in Dan's words, if Dredd were to show up, there's be no Insurrection or its sequel Liberty, as Dredd would just stick to the law and see it through.



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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






 Matt Swain wrote:
Speaking of 2000AD did you know one of their short stories was later turned into a movie that was actually pretty good and successful?

Thing is the makers didn't credit or acknowledge 2000 AD leading to an ugly lawsuit and keeping the movie out of circulation for a while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_(film)

Despite the graphics looking like 80's video games hardware holds up fairly well ad is still worth a look if you're into 40k or 2000AD.


Ahh yes, this one! I believe the movie was called "Mark 13" in Finland (?) Think I've actually seen it once.. IIRC it was a proper B-movie title
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

I don't think there was as much influence as this thread suggests. Instead growing up in the 70's there was a lot less hand holding than today. 2000AD was remembered fondly by GW designers, and crossovers occured, but I think the seeds of the imagination were already there and have a deeper common root.

With regards to SF and fantasy culture the idea that heroes could be dark and truth could be nebulous were well established in the meta of the 70's fantasy culture.
If anything I think both 2000AD and GW drew inspiration from Moorcock and other 'grown up' fantasy writers of the time who did not shy away from moral dark greys, atrocity and expediency in dark times. GW at least has admitted such. While there ias a touch of 2000Ad in the imagery of GW's properties Moorcock is pretty much the foundation, and on looking back is the foundation for both.

Being a child in the early 70's we had a metas in the UK of ghost stories and ghoulish tales. We knew full well what an inquisition was like even as small children. They werent just black hat boogeymen either, but there was an understanding of why they were as they were.
Hammer Horror helped immensely as it gave personality to dark forces, but we should also add in holocaust remembrance and a clearer understanding of evil, but without the PC makeover of today, or the cotton wool blanket of the 90's.

The idea of a hero fighting an inquisition with the executions thrown in, as a comic for kids had a different reaction in the late 70's than it did today. D&D was growing popularity then, and didn't hold back on the content either. Early role playing was not like today, systems were lethal, life was cheap and the universe also backed this up.

When GW started they included a lot of tropes which are no longer part of the modern packaged tabletop experience. Evil was described as such, not faceless OPFOR wearing black or skullface, but factions that did nasty things with the nastiness methodology and reasoning explained. This was not unique to GW by any means, but they are one of a tiny handful of old guard who are still doing what they did then.

D&D moved on with death saves and tripled up chances to avoid consequence. Meanwhile Nurgles Rot is still an incurable hopeless death sentence and soul corruption.
It does help the not moving on for GW to primarily focus on tabletop wargames, not RPGs. There is no need to bolster survivability of tabletop wargaming miniatures to save players from hurt feelings. Marneus Calgar or Abaddon the Despoiler can die and die again. But modern RPG's require some sort of savegame, and quick replenishment for instant hero playtime.

2000AD still has its rough edges, because it is now part of the trope. Some media gets a pass. Judge Dredd will always be about police brutality and doesnt trigger snowflakes. The media with this exemption is fairly thin. Game of Thrones got a pass because it had cornered the gritty and harsh trope for itself, not quite fairly in my opinion as other media also had harsh writing and character death. But it was certainly noted by the press that the High Sparrow was persecuting gays in Pride Week and the people were not triggered because it was Game of Thrones. The public saw the entire show as being about harsh brutality, and loved it for it.
GW has the same sort of pass, and while there are people who complain about GW's content the company survives that because the religious zealots who commit mass murder and have zero racial tolerance are the protagonists. That in a nutshell is 40K, and the 'it's 40K' gives GW a whole lot of leeway enjoyed by GRR Martin, Judge Dredd and not a lot else.
As this PC pass is a major part of the company franchise, and it sells, it is likely to remain, and parallels to similar culture such as 2000AD will remain too, as they are standouts in modern pop culture for their lack of mollycoddling.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/06 15:36:57


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Ireland

Am I hallucinating or was Pat Mills at Games Day in Birmingham in 1996/7/8? (Year is I hazy)

I remember meeting him and telling him how much I loved 2000AD and he was all “Yeah, well whatever...”. Dan Abnett was lovely and signed my books.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

He only wrote the Redeemer as far as I can see in his bibliography, which was done around 2000, he hasn't done anything else for GW.

And yes, Dan's always lovely and polite when signing books.



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