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Made in fi
Focused Fire Warrior






I've seen some people on this board claiming that Rogue Trader era 40K is pretty much a ripoff from 2000 A.D. comics of the 80's, from stuff like Rogue Trooper, Judge Dredd and Nemesis The Warlock.

As I've aged, I seem to be looking backwards in time more and more towards the years of my youth, namely 80's and 90's, and have been rediscovering a lot of the things I felt deeply inspiring in my formative years. Something about studying that stuff that is psychologically very rewarding, it feels like going through that stuff when you're older deepens your understanding about yourself.. hard to explain in words. Anyways!

As I got into 40K almost from the start and feel like Rogue Trader-2nd edition 40K is "my jam", I want to learn more about the mindset and the prevailing culture that birthed these things. And since now all these 2000 A.D. classic comics originals from the era are available to buy digitally, would you recommend looking into these comics? Right now, I'm thinking of nabbing at least all the Nemesis the Warlock books, its a nice tidy bundle of only a few volumes in total. Rogue Trooper interests me also, I seem to recall enjoying playing a game with that name on my friends Amiga back in the day LOL - but does Rogue Trooper have any relation to 40K's origins?

Now Judge Dredd, that is a tough one.. I am having difficulties identifying the original volumes that were made in the 80's. There's so much Dredd stuff now! Dredd has undoubtedly been a big influence, as the aquila and idea of hive cities are clearly inspired by it, among other things, like the "Dredd Land Raider" in a RT rulebook diagram and so on. Many of the illustrators who worked with GW at the time were also involved with 2000 AD, and surely that fact has also something to do with the influences showing..

You are probably wondering "This is offtopic! 2000 AD is totally separate IP from GW's?!" And on one hand you'd be right. Cosider this as a meta-level 40K background discussion thread, where I'm mainly interested in learning more about the influences leading into the 40K background. And within that topic, the influence of 80's 2000 A.D. content especially.

[Thumb - 09886282-2557-455B-AC28-7E07FFA80201.jpeg]
Does any of this sound familiar to you?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/01/02 08:13:39


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




United Kingdom

2000AD appeared in the 70's.It was a very controversial comic for its day hitting on subjects that no other children's publication would dare tackle. Amazing artwork as well. And compared to other comics did not take things easily or laying down.

I also think that Dredd first appeared in 2000ad very early in its print run possibly as early as issue 2 or 3 which I think would of been issued around 1977 or 1978.

It was the comic that opened my eyes towards sci fi. I am not sure when certain characters appeared but when you get things like Strontium dogs which has more then a passing feel to early 40k and artwork as you show Nemesis which easily could be based in the old 40K world you do start to wonder.

2000ad certainly seems like one of the influences that influenced my generation of the 1970's.

It's not surprising that company's like citadel sold 2000ad related games minis like Judge Dredd. But saying that they also sold Star Trek and Dr Who mini's as well.


Remember not to wash my brush out in coffee cup today. 
   
Made in fi
Focused Fire Warrior






Batty wrote:
2000AD appeared in the 70's.It was a very controversial comic for its day hitting on subjects that no other children's publication would dare tackle. Amazing artwork as well. And compared to other comics did not take things easily or laying down.

I also think that Dredd first appeared in 2000ad very early in its print run possibly as early as issue 2 or 3 which I think would of been issued around 1977 or 1978.

It was the comic that opened my eyes towards sci fi. I am not sure when certain characters appeared but when you get things like Strontium dogs which has more then a passing feel to early 40k and artwork as you show Nemesis which easily could be based in the old 40K world you do start to wonder.

2000ad certainly seems like one of the influences that influenced my generation of the 1970's.

It's not surprising that company's like citadel sold 2000ad related games minis like Judge Dredd. But saying that they also sold Star Trek and Dr Who mini's as well.



Ah yes, these were already out around the time I was born! hehehe. I stand corrected on that.

And I also remember GW selling plastic Dr Who miniatures, they were in my local stores around the same time as the first wave of 40K plastics (RTB01, IG, Squats). Didn't remember the Star Trek ones, but now that you mentioned it, I musta seen some metal blisters?

Strontium Dog? That's yet another piece of the puzzle I think. Quick cursory glance of it reminds me alot of how the Imperial Guard looks like in Rogue Trader..

I found a sample of the Nemesis the Warlock book and decided to buy them. Readin the first volume right now and I can definitely feel the influences! Looking forward on digesting all of these and seeing how many "seeds" I can find. I spotted one new reference already, Nemesis has a grandfather called Baal

Also, this screen wouldn't jump out of place in a grimdark comic dont you think?

Fascinating!

[Thumb - F1BD11C5-7A01-41DE-8EB2-30E2177C40E0.jpeg]
IoM anyone?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/01/02 11:33:49


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




United Kingdom

Ha, HA! Plastic Dr who minis. That was after my time. I can still see in my mind blister packs of pewter minis. Gosh, just wish I had enough money to buy them back then. They had all the doctors from Hartnell through to peter Davidson. I can only just remember them so they were probably released not long before warhammer 3rd edition. By then I was gradually moving away from the hobby. If only I could turn the clock back.

Nemesis was my favorite 2000ad character. Wonderful art work and a great idea for an antihero.

When did Rouge Trooper appear in 2000ad? Now he's definitely imperial guard in looks. Another superb character.

Going from a rusty memory here but there were other influences that may of influenced early 40K.

There were already sci-fi games like Traveller on the market, and I can also clearly remember old high age weapons starting to infiltrate the early warhammer fantasy games within possibly less then a couple of years after its initial release.

If you check out the first citadel compendium(Love that issue),there is an article called Warhammer & Science Fiction. It really shows how many of us thought about fantasy and sci-fi back then. Even tough they were situated on different ends of the stick often they could meet in the middle and often did in games.

Items mentioned may sound sort of familiar, Laser Pistol, Needler, Hand Flamer, Flame Lance, Bolt Guns, Grenades, Flight Packs. Those warhammer rules were made to be used and adapted to suit whatever was required in a game. They were never set in stone.

Later game supplements appeared that did include more sci-fi weapons as relics left over from the High age by the old ones. Think Slann and Amazons.

Moving warhammer to a Sci-fi setting was only really a matter of time and a natural progression.

Remember not to wash my brush out in coffee cup today. 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






It’s a hard one to pick the bones out of.

2000AD and GW both kicked off around the same period (though 40k came later of course). And both companies share influences, from social issues (post Industrial/post Imperial decline), music (Punk, New Wave etc) and politics.

The social issues definitely fed into both. And it’s worth noting both settings (particularly Dredd) evolved, and continue to evolve, their aesthetics.

It also helps, or doesn’t I suppose, that they shared artists, and continue to share artists.

Consider a relatively modern entry in the form of Dan Abentt’s “Insurrection”. It’s set in the Dreddiverse, but I don’t remember Dredd himself turning up in it. In the Hachette “Judge Dredd Mega Collection”, Mr Abnett clearly states his work on 40k heavily influenced things. And the art?



And it’s not at all uncommon in the history part included in most volumes that GW is mentioned, both as an influence, and the influenced. It’s not quite a symbiotic relationship, but there is a limited pool of talent within the U.K., and relatively few places an artist or writer can get published.

I’d say they’ve fed each other pretty equally over the years. A writer who did something for 2000AD might have an idea which fits 40k better, and vice versa.

An artist that gets their break from one, will likely come to the attention of the other. Again, as they share origin influences, said artist might try something on one, and then transplant that style to the other.

But both are quintessentially British. Neither has strict Good Guys in the way US comics do. Indeed, I’m currently reading the first volume of 2000AD’s “The Ten Seconders”. It’s similar in premise to The Boys, Marshall Law and other critiques of Super Hero’s, all notably from U.K. writers. In 40k of course, Nobody Is The Good Guy.

Even in Nemesis, it’s eventually made clear that Nemesis is no Angel. Dredd and Justice Department are nothing if not exceptionally brutal. But, like 40k, their actions are framed by an Argument Of Necessity (however thin it might be).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/02 13:49:50


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Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I got introduced to 2000AD when I was eight, because my mam was worried about my brother and I not reading enough. A teacher recommended comic books and she got us a bunch of 2000ADs without checking what was in it. My tiny mind was blown.

Over the next few years we tracked down various anthologies and old issues in second hand trading magazines.

Later, when I got into 40K and read the 2e rulebooks, loads of it seemed 2000AD inspired. The Arbites were DEFINITELY a take off on the judges, the design of the Chaplain on Bike with the big aquilla (and the aquilla everywhere generally) definitely reminded me of judge dredd, and the megacities of 40K and 2000AD are pretty similar. But more than just that, it was the whole dark ironic take on things, the way that Judge Dredd was the protagonist but also the bad guy in most of the stories, the way Mega City One was such an awful dystopia that resonated when reading about the Imperium.

2000AD was also my first introduction to "Psi" and the idea of Psychic powers, the Cursed Earth is reminiscent of Gorkamorka and the Ash Wastes...
I remember the Land Raiders really clearly as well, and seeing them again in 40K to me just seemed logical and cool. When I read about Baal in the old 2e Wargear book, the first thing I thought of was Nu Earth from Rogue Trooper, a setting I had always found extremely evocative.

Where can you get the back issues online? I would love to revisit some of them, and I never had much of Nemesis the Warlock so I would definitely appreciate reading the full thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/02 14:02:22


   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I’d recommend the 2000ad Ultimate Collection.

It’s currently on issue 86 out of 140 volumes - but it started at just 80 volumes, so it may increase again in future.

https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/2000-ad-ultimate-collection/

I first got into 2000ad as a nipper in the early to mid 80’s, as the hairdresser near my house always had copies for people waiting.

In fact, I can probably pinpoint on of the Prog’s, as it included a strip of The Dead Man, placing it around 1989. I remember because one of the Sisters of Death pokes out Yasser Povey’s eyes. I’d definitely been reading it before then though, that panel is just one that stuck in my mind (rather like the fingers in Yasser’s eyes).

There’s also the Judge Dredd Casefiles if you just want Dredd. And those are in chronological Prog release order.

https://shop.2000ad.com/catalogue/graphic-novels/dredd-case-files

I’d recommend reading them in order as well, as both Dreddand Megacity One have but a single timeline. Things that happened stay happened, and the writer’s are very happy to raid old strips to create new consequences, as well as creating entirely new problems. Reading them at least vaguely in order definitely helps, though there are some absolute standouts (America, Democracy Now, Necropolis are three I particularly enjoyed)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/02 14:10:57


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Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Thanks a million for that! I can't remember which issue of 2000AD I started with but it would have been some time in 1992. I do remember the first issue of the Judge Dredd Megazine I read though, because it had Dredd killing a man eating plant with his bootknife and I was like "HOW IS THIS ALLOWED IN A COMIC BOOK?", as my previous comic book exposure had been the Dandy and the Beano!

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Oh yeah....whilst I’m here....

The absolute best thing ever about 2000AD? Tharg’s Future Shocks. Typically one-shot filler strips of 2-3 pages.

Some have spun off into their own series, which are typically enjoyable and pretty mental.

But the concept of the strip, and unsolicited submissions have seen now established artists plucked from obscurity. Alan Moore in particular crested several (Ultimate Collection has a volume dedicated to his works).

So if you’re a budding comic artist, submit it to 2000AD. Because some day, sooner or later, the release schedule will require a Future Shock to round out a Prog. It may be a breather piece between serials. Or perhaps one serial is partway through, but the art is late.

And it’s one those days The Mighty Tharg will choose a Future Shock.....and perhaps he’ll choose yours!

Add in 2000AD having a pretty vocal fan community, if it’s positively received you may find yourself being asked to create more....maybe even Dredd....

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Nuremberg

I just went onto the 2000AD store and am now reading the first volume of Nemesis. Ah, man I love black and white line art so much.

Edit: Yeah, you can see a lot of 40K parallels here. Terminators organised into Chapters (I mean a common enough word for organisations of that sort, but still). The extreme Xenos-phobia of the human Empire. A Cabal of aliens trying to figure out what to do about the humans...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/02 15:52:38


   
Made in fi
Focused Fire Warrior






 Da Boss wrote:
I just went onto the 2000AD store and am now reading the first volume of Nemesis. Ah, man I love black and white line art so much.

Edit: Yeah, you can see a lot of 40K parallels here. Terminators organised into Chapters (I mean a common enough word for organisations of that sort, but still). The extreme Xenos-phobia of the human Empire. A Cabal of aliens trying to figure out what to do about the humans...


I've read a little bit past book four now, and there have been lots more parallels.. (dont want to spoil them for you hehehe) Brilliant stuff! I already am a big fan of this comic and love the way it opens up the imagination to be more in line with the whole Rogue Trader crazyness. Many of the things in Termight culture also remind me of the great "Descendant Degeneration" thread here on this board, the OP of that thread might find this stuff interesting as well?

Highly recommend perusing some dusty tomes in the 2000AD shop for any Rogue Trader fan! Since no new material in that flavour of the lore etc is ever going to be officially coming anymore, this is a great extension to it, even if it isn't made by GW.

[Thumb - 79096F19-A5DB-4671-B497-814740E55F5E.jpeg]
Im sure I

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/01/02 19:41:58


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






It’s also worth noting that Nemesis, and Termight have a shared History with....

Invasion!

Savage

Ro-Busters

ABC Warriors.

Invasion was the first strip in the first Prog, and detailed the Volgan invasion of Britain.

Fast forward to the early 2010’s (give or take), and we find Howard Quartz, chairman of Ro-Busters trialling Mk1 Hammersteins during an Irish-American attempt to kick the Volgans out of Britain in Savage.

The Ro-Busters and Hammerstein of course show up in several Nemesis strips (or rather, Nemesis shows up in various ABC Warrior strips).



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Made in fi
Focused Fire Warrior






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also worth noting that Nemesis, and Termight have a shared History with....

Invasion!

Savage

Ro-Busters

ABC Warriors.

Invasion was the first strip in the first Prog, and detailed the Volgan invasion of Britain.

Fast forward to the early 2010’s (give or take), and we find Howard Quartz, chairman of Ro-Busters trialling Mk1 Hammersteins during an Irish-American attempt to kick the Volgans out of Britain in Savage.

The Ro-Busters and Hammerstein of course show up in several Nemesis strips (or rather, Nemesis shows up in various ABC Warrior strips).




I have a feeling some cultural historians are going to love sifting through all these cross references one day!
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I was fascinated by the ABC Warriors as a kid. Because it seemed like maybe they were baddies?! The art was amazing for those strips.

Savage is another one I remember pretty well.

Man, there is so much there. Really drives home as well how diverse 2000AD's stuff is. You've got Celtic Warriors, far future robots, space operas, dystopian crime fiction, magic weirdness...

Way into University I was still picking up my weekly prog, but I somehow fell out of it in my mid twenties. I am friends with lots of die hard comic geeks, but I was the only one (apart from my brother) who was into 2000AD for whatever reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/02 16:41:13


   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






It’s a pretty unique entity so far as I’m aware.

Not only for its longevity, but being a weekly anthology. I’ve currently got an annual subscription going (which renews soon), and the great benefit of the anthology structure is even if I’m not enjoying one strip (Caballistics Inc for instance. The art is offputting, as it’s hard to tell who is who), there’ll still be others I will enjoy.

It’s also still really quite experimental. Dredd and friends remain staples, but most years see entirely new strips included. Some are strict arcs, with no intention to revisit. Others become firm favourites.

I suspect that’s the secret to its longevity. Different art styles, different types of stories. They can chase trends, whilst leaving the likes of Dredd alone. Compare to say, Batman, where the Bats from the 60’s is very different to the 90’s. Having at least a string of Standard helps maintain familiarity over the decades.


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Nuremberg

You also get some incredible art for strips. What was the Undercover Judge story with the insanely detailed line art? I loved just staring at the panels in that one. They really aren't afraid to try stuff out.

And yeah, it being an anthology is really something that sets it apart. It means each strip has to be written in a really punchy way to keep you hooked from issue to issue. There are always a couple of duds in any particular run of progs, but the Dredd stuff tends to be pretty enjoyable no matter what and there is always something really good as well. And even the duds sometimes have really interesting ideas or one off strips.

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Wally Squad one would be either The Simping Detective, or Dirty Frank?


Please note that Simping in this context predated the context peeps might be more familiar with.

Got to say, I couldn’t really get on with Dirty Frank. Was just a bit too out there for my sensibilities. The art was definitely impressive though.

Oh, and whilst I remember. Dredd is on Netflix in the U.K. at the moment. Yay! Though the descriptor of “A morally deranged lawman” irks me somewhat.

Dredd is not deranged. Dredd is a study in sheer self control.

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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Stick Judge Dredd on a random hive world, and he wouldn't know that he was not on Earth until someone told him.
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Dredd is probably the most restrained person in the universe.
   
Made in fi
Focused Fire Warrior






Just finished reading the first book of the compilation. Lets see, there were battle sisters of sorts, mention of Mechanicus, Automata, Dark Age Of Science, robots being centuries old and the knowledge on how to make them had been lost, Khaos was mentioned, Nemesis's child using mind tricks similar to what genestealers use to fool humans into believing their offspring are humans too.. Ah and the mention that the ABC warrior who looks the most like a beakie marine had "very sensitive sensors" hehe. It doesnt translate 1:1 of course but many, many little things feel instantly familiar.

And check this screen and compare it with 1st edition IG plastics


[Thumb - 618B37ED-C7A0-40A2-AB59-ED781901FCA6.jpeg]
Gothic soldier? using a heat weapon

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/01/02 19:39:14


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





The adeptus arbites are very dred like

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/300813-ARBITE%20Reference%20art.html
   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

The society Dredd inhabits is deranged. Dredd is the result, and he's as unyielding as an iron bar.

(On the outside, at least. There's a lot more going on under the surface with Joe)
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

I know I've mentioned this before in another thread, but Pat Mills, who co-created 2000AD and wrote Nemesis the Warlock, also wrote the Redeemer series for Black Library and explicitly made the eponymous character an expy of Torquemada from Nemesis. You can't get much closer than that for 2000AD influence on 40K.

Accusing people of whining is just a particularly lazy way of admitting you have no counter-arguments.

Compromising with evil doesn't make you better than them. It makes you a collaborator. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I love these kinds of topics. Going to have to pick up a few issues of 2000 AD now.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




United Kingdom

I have most copies released on a set of discs somewhere. Good to have and make a fascinating read.

However I can kick myself. I used to have the first 50 copies of the comic which I purchased religiously with my pocket money until I left school. When I moved out parents thought they were junk and threw them all out.

I look back now and shudder at the loss.

Remember not to wash my brush out in coffee cup today. 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






In terms of the influence, I think it’s also hard to ignore just how influential each property is in terms of U.K. talent, especially for people on the younger end of the spectrum.

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Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

I'd recommend watching the documentary "Future shock! The story of 2000AD" as well.

It also explains how so many 2000AD writers and artists became more famous in the USA for the big two comic chain's stuff.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in ca
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




No idea what yall are talking about, but I'm pretty intrigued


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Stick Judge Dredd on a random hive world, and he wouldn't know that he was not on Earth until someone told him.


Even then, he probably wouldnt believe it right away

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/03 01:28:28


123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
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Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

In answer to the original question, as much as Tolkien and Dune.
   
Made in fi
Focused Fire Warrior






Andykp wrote:
In answer to the original question, as much as Tolkien and Dune.


I understand what you mean in that pretty much everything in scifi/fantasy fiction which was released after those two have been influenced. However in 2000AD, I think the influences are more in the small details and now that I've read a fair bit of Nemesis, the 40K Rogue Trader book is just screaming the obvious influence of the whole 2000 AD universe. The bonkers techno-barbarism and anarchy, witty texts written in armour and weapons, the whole underlying vibe of dark humour and nihilism.. After some Nemesis, it all makes so much more sense to me than before.

I'm just very happy I found out about this connection. It's very inspiring to me and gives me a lot of ideas for Rogue Trader -era fluff I can come up with. Modern 40K is trodding a complete different path, and this stuff is completely unhinged in comparison. Its obvious to me now why Rogue Trader was kind of an open-ended roleplaying game - It bloody well had to be if anyone would have tried to keep up with all this weirdness!

It also makes me speculate how current 40K could be interpreted if Nemesis was one of the chaos gods and Torquemada was a high Lord of Terra, or even Emperor himself.. that would make all the existing lore a conspiracy theorist's wet dream! (It'd also make me start a Chaos army hehe)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Duskweaver wrote:
I know I've mentioned this before in another thread, but Pat Mills, who co-created 2000AD and wrote Nemesis the Warlock, also wrote the Redeemer series for Black Library and explicitly made the eponymous character an expy of Torquemada from Nemesis. You can't get much closer than that for 2000AD influence on 40K.


Interesting! I'll have a look at it as well, thanks for pointing it out.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/01/03 13:47:46


 
   
 
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