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I've not seen Mortarion and Magnus that often because - brutally - most people just don't seem to play chaos round here. Its sort of why I never really know what Chaos is "doing" in the meta.

But when Wraith Knights were the most broken thing, you saw them on every other table (sometimes on both sides.) When Castellan were the hotness for a year or so they too appeared on every table. (Or at least a regular Knight if someone had bought one of them in 7th.)

9th is less soup friendly, so some of the same issues may not travel across. But "buy big thing, glue big thing, play big thing and win more games" is an attractive and relatively easily met proposition.

Necron players for example are not that common compared to Space Marines - but I do think there is the growing realisation that if you are serious you are running the Silent King - learn him, love him, the end. Probably with a C'Tan too - even if the Nightbringer got a slight nerf.

I remember coming to 40K from Lotr, opened my first CSM Codex and was like: Why are there only 6 named guys in there, only one for the Legion I'm interested in? Where's the profile for the guy in that short story on page 47? It took me a while to realize that 40K is not tied to its background in a very strong way like Lotr and you are expected to create your own Heroes and missions. I have no problem with characters from the background actually appearing as models with their own rules. Especially as a Chaos player, who wouldn't want to see their Primarch in model form, even just for the shelf to sit on?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:


Directly, 2E games of 40K against a force-field protected Ghaz (and unkillable) and WHFB (couldn't tell you the edition) invincible heroes. The latter left such an unsavory taste in my mouth, I sold off my WHFB elf army and quit the game. At least through 7E 40K, there's been a slew of 40K character cheese I've observed that reminded me of what I hated about those experiences that I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. I do not like games of Herohammer, and GW's games are poster children for this sort of play.

I remember the days of named character bans, but out of curiosity have you played 8th/9th at all? It's a totally different beast.

I've played 8th, but not 9th. I've also watched others or watched battle reports of 8E, and it hasn't changed my opinion of not wanting to play with named characters.

I like centerpiece / big models a lot.

I don't like named characters very much.

I've destroyed Mortarion (pre-new-DG codex) at least four times. When does my regiment in their lore get the medal for besting a Daemon Primarch?

I mean it sounds like children on the playground. "The heroic Trynzendian 7th destroyed Mortarion in their last battle!" "Oh, yea? Well my Your'Dudes Sept Tau have killed him EIGHT TIMES!" "Oh yea? Well my Hive Fleet Mydudes has killed him ELEVEN!"

Like really? Mortarion is a "regular unit" now whose destruction is even possible by unupgraded generic goons? Angron and his bloodthirster bodyguard took out I think a hundred Grey Knight terminators.

I hate to see what he looks like on the tabletop if that's possible - or, rather, I hate to see what he looks like on the tabletop because he'll probably die to like, 5 paladins or a fair few Russes.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I've destroyed Mortarion (pre-new-DG codex) at least four times. When does my regiment in their lore get the medal for besting a Daemon Primarch?

literally any time you want.... its your regiment, you're in full control of their fluff. Just add a medal to the model that killed it.

They are really cool models and an awesome hobby project.

They are also a logistic nightmare.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I've destroyed Mortarion (pre-new-DG codex) at least four times. When does my regiment in their lore get the medal for besting a Daemon Primarch?

literally any time you want.... its your regiment, you're in full control of their fluff. Just add a medal to the model that killed it.

It gets a bit less special when every 2nd unit in the army has that medal by the end of the year.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I've destroyed Mortarion (pre-new-DG codex) at least four times. When does my regiment in their lore get the medal for besting a Daemon Primarch?

literally any time you want.... its your regiment, you're in full control of their fluff. Just add a medal to the model that killed it.

It gets a bit less special when every 2nd unit in the army has that medal by the end of the year.

I mean, i can say the same thing about your Russ that is in every list you build (idk if you actually bring russes, just making a point) getting repaired between every engagement. "Ive destroyed that Russ 10 times already! how is he back again"

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I've destroyed Mortarion (pre-new-DG codex) at least four times. When does my regiment in their lore get the medal for besting a Daemon Primarch?

literally any time you want.... its your regiment, you're in full control of their fluff. Just add a medal to the model that killed it.

It gets a bit less special when every 2nd unit in the army has that medal by the end of the year.

I mean, i can say the same thing about your Russ that is in every list you build (idk if you actually bring russes, just making a point) getting repaired between every engagement. "Ive destroyed that Russ 10 times already! how is he back again"

It's entirely plausible to get new Russes every engagement.

In fact, in older editions I had "wrecked" vehicles survive but "exploded" vehicles did not - though since I never painted their names on, I didn't have to repaint anything. The names were on the army list though, and I did indeed change them when one Exploded.

EDIT:
I even found one of my old 5th edition army lists from Armored Battlegroup recently on a crumpled up piece of paper. The list is printed from a computer, but the tank names are written in pencil, presumably because they changed so often

"That Mortarion got totally trashed by those eradicators! Oh well, order up a new one at the factory. Going to have to put those ten Ahrimans on hold for a while." - Dark Mechanicus Bob

yukishiro1 wrote:
"That Mortarion got totally trashed by those eradicators! Oh well, order up a new one at the factory. Overtime for everybody!" - Dark Mechanicus Bob

Yeah to say they're "the same as Leman Russes" is kinda silly tbf. Leman Russes are literally the example of a heavy asset that's wasted in huge numbers for marginal gains. To say "You could say the same about your Russes that you can about Mortarion" is literally the point I am trying to make (because that's such a silly, counterintuitive thing to say).

It's like saying that "You may've blown up Rommel, but I blew up three T-34s!"

I like centerpiece models. even if they never get used they make an awesome "capstone" to a collection.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
"That Mortarion got totally trashed by those eradicators! Oh well, order up a new one at the factory. Overtime for everybody!" - Dark Mechanicus Bob

Yeah to say they're "the same as Leman Russes" is kinda silly tbf. Leman Russes are literally the example of a heavy asset that's wasted in huge numbers for marginal gains. To say "You could say the same about your Russes that you can about Mortarion" is literally the point I am trying to make (because that's such a silly, counterintuitive thing to say).

It's like saying that "You may've blown up Rommel, but I blew up three T-34s!"

I think it's more accurate to compare Mortarian to Montgomery, who never passed up an opportunity to conduct a frontal assault*.

*This may be hyperbole.

given that morty is a deamon prince and thus killing him "doesn't really kill him" not sure it's the best comparison TBH

BrianDavion wrote:
given that morty is a deamon prince and thus killing him "doesn't really kill him" not sure it's the best comparison TBH

This is just a cop-out though, really. (Also anyone who knows his True Name can kill him, which is... well, certainly more than zero people in the Imperium. If I take one Ordo Malleus Inquisitor and mortarion dies against him, can I just ban mortarion from all future games at my store? Of course not.)

"He's a daemon prince, so the fact that he dies weekly at your FLGS (sometimes multiple times weekly if you have multiple DG players) is just fluffy?"

Yeah, right. There are as many Mortarian reincarnations as there are Leman Russes in the Imperium, apparently... (they just can't be around at the same time despite the warp being timey-wimey nonsense).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
"That Mortarion got totally trashed by those eradicators! Oh well, order up a new one at the factory. Overtime for everybody!" - Dark Mechanicus Bob

Yeah to say they're "the same as Leman Russes" is kinda silly tbf. Leman Russes are literally the example of a heavy asset that's wasted in huge numbers for marginal gains. To say "You could say the same about your Russes that you can about Mortarion" is literally the point I am trying to make (because that's such a silly, counterintuitive thing to say).

It's like saying that "You may've blown up Rommel, but I blew up three T-34s!"

I guess we have different view on our armies. My armies are always the same guys, even when they die, when i play them in the next game its still the same army. My dunecrawler isnt a new one being made in my mind, its litterally the same as the one i was playing before.

Yeah I think that is what it comes down to, a different view on the game and a different sense of immersion. For some, special characters increase immersion or are neutral. For others, they break immersion outside of special games.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


I guess we have different view on our armies. My armies are always the same guys, even when they die, when i play them in the next game its still the same army. My dunecrawler isnt a new one being made in my mind, its litterally the same as the one i was playing before.

All of my vehicles are named. Most of my Sergeants are named. All of my Veterans are named. Some even have medals and kill marks.

Having run quite a few Necromunda campaigns I've had enough of my crew dying and needing replacing.

But I've killed Mortarion more times than Vulkan died.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
"That Mortarion got totally trashed by those eradicators! Oh well, order up a new one at the factory. Overtime for everybody!" - Dark Mechanicus Bob

Yeah to say they're "the same as Leman Russes" is kinda silly tbf. Leman Russes are literally the example of a heavy asset that's wasted in huge numbers for marginal gains. To say "You could say the same about your Russes that you can about Mortarion" is literally the point I am trying to make (because that's such a silly, counterintuitive thing to say).

It's like saying that "You may've blown up Rommel, but I blew up three T-34s!"

I guess we have different view on our armies. My armies are always the same guys, even when they die, when i play them in the next game its still the same army. My dunecrawler isnt a new one being made in my mind, its litterally the same as the one i was playing before.

Yeah, that doesn't make logical sense to me. At the risk of veering off topic, this is why I dislike 9th's Crusade; progression is not the same thing as narrative.

If my Fire Prism explodes and everyone inside of it dies, how the hell does it have a "battle scar" next round? It should just be outright gone... and I've even done this in our Crusade once, paying the RP to delete a fireprism from the list and then re-adding a new fire prism, because the old one exploded in a game. I actively hurt myself to follow the narrative inside GW's narrative system...

I have found that they seem to be some of the most difficult units to balance in 40k for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
"That Mortarion got totally trashed by those eradicators! Oh well, order up a new one at the factory. Overtime for everybody!" - Dark Mechanicus Bob

Yeah to say they're "the same as Leman Russes" is kinda silly tbf. Leman Russes are literally the example of a heavy asset that's wasted in huge numbers for marginal gains. To say "You could say the same about your Russes that you can about Mortarion" is literally the point I am trying to make (because that's such a silly, counterintuitive thing to say).

It's like saying that "You may've blown up Rommel, but I blew up three T-34s!"

I guess we have different view on our armies. My armies are always the same guys, even when they die, when i play them in the next game its still the same army. My dunecrawler isnt a new one being made in my mind, its litterally the same as the one i was playing before.

Yeah, that doesn't make logical sense to me. At the risk of veering off topic, this is why I dislike 9th's Crusade; progression is not the same thing as narrative.

If my Fire Prism explodes and everyone inside of it dies, how the hell does it have a "battle scar" next round? It should just be outright gone... and I've even done this in our Crusade once, paying the RP to delete a fireprism from the list and then re-adding a new fire prism, because the old one exploded in a game. I actively hurt myself to follow the narrative inside GW's narrative system...

Most people aren't you and would be entirely unhappy with not being able to play with models they own. This is why death is a rarity in almost every campaign system.

stratigo wrote:
Most people aren't you and would be entirely unhappy with not being able to play with models they own. This is why death is a rarity in almost every campaign system.

I used the same Fire Prism model, it's not like I ran out and bought a new one. I did rename it though and reset its experience.

Where did I say "the unit died = you cannot ever use that model again"?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Out of interest, and without looking to make a point, how often do peeps come up against them in a game?

Frequently enough to be annoyed by them.

stratigo wrote:


Most people aren't you and would be entirely unhappy with not being able to play with models they own. This is why death is a rarity in almost every campaign system.

Funny story... I got invited to this garage group when I was like 18. The guy who was hosting was an ex-NFL player who was loaded, he had this big shed that was his gaming cave. I put my orks on the table for a game against one of the guys and the host pulled out a hammer and an acetylene torch, plopped them down on the table, and said "Just so you now, we play for keeps here. If it gets destroyed, it gets destroyed." I balked, obviously, as there was no way I could afford to re-buy things on my retail salary. They cracked up because I fell for it at the start.

He did have a casting setup in his shed, though, and when one of his Rhinos or whatever got blown up he'd have a cast of them ready, go out and put a firecracker in it, then use the pieces as cover.

Hecaton wrote:
[
He did have a casting setup in his shed, though, and when one of his[i] Rhinos or whatever got blown up he'd have a cast of them ready, go out and put a firecracker in it, then use the pieces as cover. [u]

That is quite possibly the coolest thing ever

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I remember coming to 40K from Lotr, opened my first CSM Codex and was like: Why are there only 6 named guys in there, only one for the Legion I'm interested in? Where's the profile for the guy in that short story on page 47? It took me a while to realize that 40K is not tied to its background in a very strong way like Lotr and you are expected to create your own Heroes and missions. I have no problem with characters from the background actually appearing as models with their own rules. Especially as a Chaos player, who wouldn't want to see their Primarch in model form, even just for the shelf to sit on?

Yeah this is a funny point because in LOTR, something with an INCREDIBLY well-defined canon, you have people regularly running things like Aragorn King Elessar vs Witch King of Angmar and nobody bats an eye, or Saruman taking to the battlefield personally to fight Elrond.

Well sure, but that's kind-of the point of the setting. Nobody (well, almost nobody) plays LOTR to experience The Adventures of Bob the Orc. Whereas 40k has historically been a bit less focused on named character fanfic and more focused on creating your own characters.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well sure, but that's kind-of the point of the setting. Nobody (well, almost nobody) plays LOTR to experience The Adventures of Bob the Orc. Whereas 40k has historically been a bit less focused on named character fanfic and more focused on creating your own characters.

Very much this

In terms of “why does X appear in such a small scaled game”, I’m in two minds.

The first is that I do agree to an extent. Especially big boys like Ghaz and the Silent King. They’re leaders of their entire race, so seeing them on the field does feel a bit weird.

But on the other? Stuff like Guilliman, Abaddon and other explicitly martial characters? Why wouldn’t they take the field often? Same with C’Tan shards. They’re not legendarily rare, and now amount to little beyond very very angry, but powerful weapons to be directed as the Phaeron decides.

Now that’s not to be taken as a STFU to those bored of facing them, or who eschew named characters in their own list. I’ve neither business nor interest in telling you what to think or what opinion to hold (I get paid for that at work. So I’m not doing it for free).

But it is a rationale of sorts that yes, these folk can and do take to the field. Sure some feel a bit too important for 40k’s scale, even at 3,000 points. There you just need to assume the battle you’re enacting is a particularly important slice of a far larger Violence Pie.

But the characters of lesser note, especially Space and Chaos Marines one. Battle is their literal job. Of course they’d been seen on the field with shocking regularity.

With all you narrative guys here, I bet you don't even play it like I do, because I'm really a narrative player. Whenever a model I own gets killed, I smash it with a hammer and toss it away. My dude is dead and can therefore never be fielded again. If a tank gets exploded, I load it up with some black powder and blow it up. It blew up in the game, so it should be blown up! Get on my level, plebs!

 Kall3m0n wrote:
With all you narrative guys here, I bet you don't even play it like I do, because I'm really a narrative player. Whenever a model I own gets killed, I smash it with a hammer and toss it away. My dude is dead and can therefore never be fielded again. If a tank gets exploded, I load it up with some black powder and blow it up. It blew up in the game, so it should be blown up! Get on my level, plebs!

It might make people play a little smarter