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 Jidmah wrote:
Simple question, stemming from the discussion in the news thread.

Would YOU, personally, buy ork boyz if they get a new kit?

Depends. I wanna say yes cause I'd really love to see what they do with new boys, but I'm not a big fan of horde armies. It's one of the big draws of marines. You got 30 odd dudes, but for orks that's one unit and you need 3 of them.

Not gonna lie though if they give Orks nobs in the troop slot I'll probably get them

Depends--as in:

Depends on the sculpts. If I hate the sculpts, I won't be buying any. I suspect a third party would come out with an option for any new variant I 'needed' that was really unpopular from GW

Depends on the background. Is this a new sculpt for some new idea that I hate, like orks with wings, or flaming orks?
Not gonna buy it. If the concept is dumb enough (to me) and popular enough (to others) it could get me to abandon expanding my collection any further at all.

Depends on your definition of 'buy'. Would I buy monopose, unconvertable ork boys (so long as I liked the sculpt). Hell yes. Would I buy very many of them? No. I might buy one of each sculpt. I would not be buying a load of them to create a new unit of boyz. I can always add a new sculpt to the army, but a new unit of 10-30 boys? I have to have some reason to buy more than one of each sculpt, and if they can't be multipose or easily converted, my reason for buying more than one of each goes out the window.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
From the top of my head:
Acolyte Hybrids (10 per box)
Neophyte Hybrids (5 per box)
Poxwalkers (10 per box)
Necron Warriors (10 per box)
Battle Sisters (10 per box)

Whatever they are doing for AoS, they clearly aren't doing for 40k.

Unless the rules have changed drastically since I last played, Necrons and Battle Sisters are absolutely NOT horde units. I would never have expected them to be released in units of 20 any more than I would expect Space Marines to be released in units of 20.

Poxwalkers are only 10, but they're relatively cheap still so I wouldn't be crying if Boyz came out at a similar price.

And would you really consider them a horde unit anyway given that I've never seen an army built around a horde of Poxwalkers? They're not like Tyranid Gaunts or Goblins or Orcs or Orks where you genuinely and regularly see armies fielded with of 100+ of them.

I know people use GC as an example of GW pushing too far, that might be one example that's true, I've not seen a GC army in the flesh I don't know how much of a "horde army" they are.

So basically everything 40k doesn't count, because reasons, gotcha.

Doesn't change the fact, that 40k doesn't have 20 model kits.

 Jidmah wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
From the top of my head:
Acolyte Hybrids (10 per box)
Neophyte Hybrids (5 per box)
Poxwalkers (10 per box)
Necron Warriors (10 per box)
Battle Sisters (10 per box)

Whatever they are doing for AoS, they clearly aren't doing for 40k.

Unless the rules have changed drastically since I last played, Necrons and Battle Sisters are absolutely NOT horde units. I would never have expected them to be released in units of 20 any more than I would expect Space Marines to be released in units of 20.

Poxwalkers are only 10, but they're relatively cheap still so I wouldn't be crying if Boyz came out at a similar price.

And would you really consider them a horde unit anyway given that I've never seen an army built around a horde of Poxwalkers? They're not like Tyranid Gaunts or Goblins or Orcs or Orks where you genuinely and regularly see armies fielded with of 100+ of them.

I know people use GC as an example of GW pushing too far, that might be one example that's true, I've not seen a GC army in the flesh I don't know how much of a "horde army" they are.

So basically everything 40k doesn't count, because reasons, gotcha.

Doesn't change the fact, that 40k doesn't have 20 model kits.

I'll concede they haven't been doing 20 man kits for 40k, but also 40k hasn't seen a horde-style release for a long time either.

GW pricing and unit sizing is some amalgamation of sprue size, the amount of plastic, the number of points a model is worth, how physically large it is, and how many models you're typically going to take in an army, etc. Using examples like Primaris, Sisters and Necrons as your basis for what they're going to do with Orks is really not much of a base at all.

GW have fluctuated with their unit sizes and pricing over the years, and it's clearly depended on the type of unit. Orks Boyz are more comparable to Tyranid Gaunts or maybe Guardsmen, I'm struggling to think of anything similar to your basic Ork Boy released for 40k in recent times.



I'm not even entirely sure why I'm arguing with you. I'm not even saying that I think they will do a 20 model kit, I'm just saying it's a possibility and they need to keep the price down to not scare people away from Orks, whether that's a 20 man kit or a cheap-ish 10 man unit doesn't really matter. Maybe they'll screw it up and charge $70 for 10 Ork Boyz in which case they're not going to sell a hell of a lot of them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
GW have fluctuated with their unit sizes and pricing over the years, and it's clearly depended on the type of unit. Orks Boyz are more comparable to Tyranid Gaunts or maybe Guardsmen, I'm struggling to think of anything similar to your basic Ork Boy released for 40k in recent times.

Wait, guardsmen are a horde unit, but poxwalkers, GSC or sisters are not?

I'm not even entirely sure why I'm arguing with you. I'm not even saying that I think they will do a 20 model kit, I'm just saying it's a possibility and they need to keep the price down to not scare people away from Orks, whether that's a 20 man kit or a cheap-ish 10 man unit doesn't really matter. Maybe they'll screw it up and charge $70 for 10 Ork Boyz in which case they're not going to sell a hell of a lot of them.

Yes, and I'm saying that there is no evidence for this to happen and that I'd rather have no ork boyz than even more expensive ork boyz.

GSC, especially in regards to acolyte hybrides and Neophytes aswell as brood brothers, are , horde units.
They function as horde units.
Either as big mean melee blob in the case of Acolythes
or as MSU spam of annoyment in the case of all of the above.

Counting them not as hordes is a bit... ridicoulus.

Well, I wouldn't count SoB necessarily as they're Marines, basically. And you don't count CSM as horde units despite them being able to come in units of 20.
But there are Necron lists with 120 warriors, there were DG lists with 80 zombies so I'd say these are definitely comparable to Ork Boyz.

Depends.

At the moment, there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with the current kit.

It comes with pretty much all the options you need - barring the Nob. And the way it’s set out makes conversions nice and easy. And in terms of aesthetics within the range, they don’t particularly stand out as a venerable kit.

Any replacement kit would need to be at least that. Because even with crisper details, it’d be a step backward without them.

Consider when they were first released, around 2000 (maybe 1999?). 20 Boyz, two weapon options. Nobz and Heavy Weapons came from Blister Packs.

When they were repackaged, 10 Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw (granted not the best posed model), Big Shoota and Rokkit.

At the moment, as the box stands, it’s the best Boyz Box GW have ever done on options alone. There’s nothing the unit can take wargear wise that doesn’t come in that box.

Even the price isn’t too bad. The 20 box was £18 when first released. Adding in the two Nobz and Heavy Weapon options makes the content matching price closer than one might initially think.

So....what can GW do to make a hypothetical new box just as appealing?

Crisper sculpts, maybe additional options for the Nob (that way the spares from Blob Squad building can be used as a separate unit).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, I wouldn't count SoB necessarily as they're Marines, basically. And you don't count CSM as horde units despite them being able to come in units of 20.
But there are Necron lists with 120 warriors, there were DG lists with 80 zombies so I'd say these are definitely comparable to Ork Boyz.

* looks at CSM horde army

yeah, no. Atm CSM are very much capable and useable as a horde unit. Infact that's about one of the few ways they function as a unit worth it's pts....

 Jidmah wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
GW have fluctuated with their unit sizes and pricing over the years, and it's clearly depended on the type of unit. Orks Boyz are more comparable to Tyranid Gaunts or maybe Guardsmen, I'm struggling to think of anything similar to your basic Ork Boy released for 40k in recent times.

Wait, guardsmen are a horde unit, but poxwalkers, GSC or sisters are not?

Okay, maybe I've just not been playing the game for too long and things have changed, if that's the case I apologise and we'll all agree GW are the spawn of satan, but yeah, back when I was still playing it was common to see IG armies with 100+ models on the table, many of which were your basic guardsmen, whilst I haven't seen any armies with that many Sisters or Poxwalkers and I already said I know nothing about GC because I've not met anyone who plays them

I'm not talking about what some eccentric weirdo who collected a full company of Marines has in his closet, or some theoretical army of "well technically you could have 100 of X in an army" but realistically no one is insane enough to do it... I mean you walk into a games store / club and see 2 people playing a friendly and typical size game, if one of those people is playing Orks or Tyranids or Imperial Guard, there's a good chance there's a 100 or so of your bog standard troops on the table. Those armies lend themselves to hordes not only because the basic troops are cheap but because often the rest of the army is also cheap.

I haven't had that experience with other armies, and it is that "typical usage scenario". That determines whether it's worth GW trying to release a unit for $7 a model vs $3.5 a model.

If times have changed so much and my local stores are so far behind the times that people are rocking up to pick up games with 100 Battle Sisters or 100 Primaris or 100 <insert random unit that isn't a Boy/Guardsmen/Gaunt> then I apologise profusely and we'll agree that GW are the scum of the earth for charging $60 for 10 Battle Sisters

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Unless the rules have changed drastically since I last played, Necrons and Battle Sisters are absolutely NOT horde units. I would never have expected them to be released in units of 20 any more than I would expect Space Marines to be released in units of 20.

Sisters are not horde units in the sense that they can only field 5-10 man squads, and most of their kits already come with enough dudes to field the max squad or half the max squad. Most of ork infantry kits come with 33% or less (see Stormboyz) the models you need to field the max squad.

But at 11-12ppm they're pretty cheap and Adepta Sororitas armies with 100+ infantry models DO work, and work pretty well.

SoB units are not horde style, but the faction can easily play horde stile with lots of 10 man squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I don't mind the look of the current boyz, but I *HATE* painting them. So many fiddly bitz on models you functionally need 100 of to field?

If they stripped the details down, a lot, and go entirely against their current model paradigm which is to cram as many details on as possible... I'd consider it. Like, a Guardsman for example has boots and belt, armour, cloth, and skin. There are 3 additional details in an Aquila on the helmet, chest, and lasgun. Add teef for Orks, and if that was the degree of details to worry about, i'd probably be happy, and would consider buying some more to paint. As is, I built and painted a Kill Team and I hated it. The painting part only Assembly and playing? Not bad! But I'll never paint another Ork Boy of the current design.

New boyz would surely be extremely more detailed than the current models.

Well, I took the time to google army lists for the AoS units you mentioned despite me never having played that game and it took me like two seconds to find them...

Based on newer AoS and 40k ork models, I'd pass. The new sculpts are a bit too cartoony for me. Also a bit smooth? Not so scraggly and gnarly, more rounded and thick I guess. Wouldn't have so much issue with being less posable because the current boyz are basically all the same in terms of poses etc. That being said losing the current line for more a less customisable set that would be more difficult to kitbash would be a real shame.

Also I have enough boyz, and I avoid buying first hand where possible.

All depends on the sculpts.

The real question should be: would you buy a significant number of new ork boyz? I mean 30 at least.

Seems like getting a single box for conversions, or just to enjoy painting new releases, is something many players would be willing to do, including me, but in that case those models wouldn't be played as boyz.

I could be interesting to know how many players would like to get one or more full mobs of new ork boyz.

Honestly looking at the orks from the new vehicles, I'd really love new boys

In theory - yes I would. But looking at newer orkish (aos&40k) sculpts I believe there is an unsurmountable divide between my taste and GWs current crop of designers and what other fans want, sadly for me

 Blackie wrote:
The real question should be: would you buy a significant number of new ork boyz? I mean 30 at least.

Seems like getting a single box for conversions, or just to enjoy painting new releases, is something many players would be willing to do, including me, but in that case those models wouldn't be played as boyz.

I could be interesting to know how many players would like to get one or more full mobs of new ork boyz.

That could work, keep the classic sculpts for Boyz and use the newer versions as Big'Uns/Scarboyz.
The good thing about Orks is that they grow over time anyway so scalecreep wouldn't be such a big deal; the bigger ones are just the Armageddon strain!

Skarboyz and Ard Boyz could definitely be alternate builds for a hypothetical new box for sure.

Not sure if that would involve separate armour plate bits, or just alternative torsos?

'ard boyz can be built from the current boyz kit.

I would bet that this option would completely disappear from the kit once it is redone.

I'm quite happy with the models currently EXCEPT the Boss Nob is too small to be a proper Nob. More head selections would be nice but not necessary.

I really really really don't need the temptation to start an ork army. I have too many armies as it is.

I like the old (present) ork boyz kit. I want to see a new kit that actually improves on the old kit.

I wasn't thrilled with some of their ork designs once they started moving heavily into CAD - found the faces a bit blocky and I felt they had less personality. But they've released some tremendous kits with the buggies and particularly their recent throwback model. I'm confident that they have people on their team that can make a kit worthy of replacing the legacy ork boy kit.

I just have to see it first. Otherwise, I really wouldn't have any issues with just buying some more legacy boyz or at least mixing the new and old.

The reality is the sculpts from that era were just tone-setting and brilliant. The big choppa and kombi skorcha warboss are what really define the art style and mythos for me.

One thing they really must do is improve the ball joint and balance of the upper and lower halves. It's a big structural weakness on the existing boyz.

Price is another huge factor. If they up the cost to $50 for a box of 10 or something ridiculous like that, then stocking up is really going to injure the wallet and make it unrealistic for most people, even enthusiasts.

 Boris420 wrote:
I'm quite happy with the models currently EXCEPT the Boss Nob is too small to be a proper Nob. More head selections would be nice but not necessary.

True, it's awful compared to proper nobz. In fact I never built a nob from the boyz kit, always went for the 11 boyz.

Yeah, since GW tosses the nob spure in essentially every box set they do, I eventually replaced all of them with "real" nobz. The only two remaining are the original two I built, out of nostalgia reasons. Also the PK I kitbashed out of AOBR choppas ten years ago makes for a great killsaw today.

The reality is the sculpts from that era were just tone-setting and brilliant. The big choppa and kombi skorcha warboss are what really define the art style and mythos for me.

I wouldn't mind one bit if new ork boyz looked like that era of ork models, just done better with today's technology. Those warbosses are some of my favorite minis in the entire ork lines. Brian Nelson knew how to sculpt ork faces. (And the rest of the ork as well. Muscular torsos, longer arms with rangy but visible muscles, solid legs. I think the new orks often lean toward "BIG MUSCLES" in a way that doesn't necessarily say "knowledge of anatomy" to me. See: the new wolverine claw Savge Orruk they just previewed.)