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Made in us
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Les Etats Unis

 catbarf wrote:
Flipsiders wrote:Mitigating damages is an important moral consideration of IP law, but encouraging original work is almost as important.


Says who?

Seriously. IP protections are invoked by the rightsholder to defend ownership of their content against unlicensed use. Those rights are the maintenance of the rightsholder; not society as a whole over some nebulous principle of encouraging original work.

From a purely non-legal standpoint I see no intrinsic value in a mediocre but original work over a better but derivative improvement to an existing one.


From a non-legal standpoint, do you see an issue with a company releasing a broken or incomplete product under the assumption that people can just add in the extra components themselves afterward?

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
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West Lafayette, IN

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, GW told at least one animator that they had to take down their videos whether they were monetized or not.

Plus, GW would probably claim it owned the IP rights to the concept of a cat.


Why are you here? I mean, you obviously detest GW on a cellular level, so why participate in ANYTHING to do with their hobbies?

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United States

Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


and I can almost imagine when after a year none of this has come true the "anti-GW crusaders" will humbly admit that perhaps they over reacted.... ohh wait no they won't

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


Right, right. We'll wait and see if that happens and if that happens, you'll get a cookie. Happy ?

Now, back to facts...there is no evidence of GW doing that for now and so far, the people who have been "ruined" (like Sodaz) was actually more because of the youtube toxic community who considered that him removing his videos because he was engaged in negociations to work with GW as a betrayal / sell out or something and their harassment was so bad Sodaz decided to decline the job offer AND made him quit entirely from doing videos on Warhammer ever.

So we can say it's actually the "good defenders" here who are making more harm than good to those they think they are "defending".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 07:53:43


 
   
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United States

BrianDavion wrote:
 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


and I can almost imagine when after a year none of this has come true the "anti-GW crusaders" will humbly admit that perhaps they over reacted.... ohh wait no they won't



I guess we will see. However, the crap that's happened in the last few months ever since Warhammer + was announced doesn't bode well.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


and I can almost imagine when after a year none of this has come true the "anti-GW crusaders" will humbly admit that perhaps they over reacted.... ohh wait no they won't



I guess we will see. However, the crap that's happened in the last few months ever since Warhammer + was announced doesn't bode well.


Well basically only thing that has really happened is this one.

Or hopefully you don't refer to TTS where guy himself decided to stop it with zero contact from GW and with nothing actually having changed

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in gb
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Bristol

Catulle wrote:


" You may not post creations that infringe others’ intellectual property or proprietary rights. Patrons may not use creations posted by creators in any way not authorized by the creator."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literal breach of the Ts and Cs, innit?


Were the mods actually posted to Patreon, and only exclusively available on Patreon?

Also, it is possible for a mod to contain nothing that infringes on GWs IP. If I made a mod that changed a load of unit stats, then that mod only contains a table of variables and their assigned values. If I made a new skin for a unit, then the mod would contain my created textures, which are my own work and not infringing on GWs IP.

Furthermore, mods in no way can ever act as a substitute for the original work of the game they are mods for, as they literally do nothing without the original work. The only instance where it could be the case is with total conversion mods, such as someone making a mod which changes Warhammer into The Lord of the Rings, and it would only be so if there was a game currently being sold which the mod could act as a substitute for.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 08:53:22


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Were the mods actually posted to Patreon, and only exclusively available on Patreon?



Doesn't even have to be that. Any creation. For example, Radious gives custom pictures from units in his mods as rewards for some levels on his patreon. That's a creation using other IP, and he does offer it clearly for money.

No need to go any further.

And if you check his patreon right now and say "but there are no Warhammer named related reward on his patreon !" - that's because he already took care of it since his statement.

Even though right now, some rewards do say they give picture of any of their covered mods and since at least one of his mods is still up and active about Total War Warhammer and his custom units there are based on Warhammer IP...



Furthermore, mods in no way can ever act as a substitute for the original work of the game they are mods for, as they literally do nothing without the original work. The only instance where it could be the case is with total conversion mods, such as someone making a mod which changes Warhammer into The Lord of the Rings, and it would only be so if there was a game currently being sold which the mod could act as a substitute for.


Irrelevant. IP is IP, Rules are rules. You don't follow them or try to be smarter than them but you're not => you still can get the hammer in your face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Also, it is possible for a mod to contain nothing that infringes on GWs IP. If I made a mod that changed a load of unit stats, then that mod only contains a table of variables and their assigned values. If I made a new skin for a unit, then the mod would contain my created textures, which are my own work and not infringing on GWs IP.


That's not the case of Radious, and he's the only one concerned so far. So argueing about a hypothetical situation is nice and all, but still not applying to reality in this case.

Finally, and it's good to say it again : we don't know if that was GW who asked Radious to do that at all. As far as his statement is, could be very well his red fish or cat that whispered it in his ear at night, and the statement still won't need to be changed at all. Since he never named the person or group or whatever that contacted him.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 09:21:08


 
   
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 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.


While I'd not argue that that's impossible, there is a fundamental difference between filming yourself using the product as intended (painting, playing) versus creating original media derived from the product. Again - not saying you're totally wrong or it won't happen, just that they're really not the same thing.

In terms of video game mods, we are seeing Patreon turn the whole thing upside down which is quite a lot of fun. Make a good enough mod that people want to see developed and those people will chuck you a few dollars on Patreon every month. You only need a few thousand or so of those people to suddenly be earning more than developers at the company that made the game in the first place. That is fundamentally unsustainable for the games industry. That doesn't mean it's bad, I for one love it and all the take down notices in the world seem unlikely to put the cat back in the bag at this point.

But to act like it's not massively disruptive, or that it's just people making a few quid off a hobby and not modders turning their work into a full time job that pays better that most developer roles at game studios is being disingenuous.
   
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 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.

I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





So am I missing something here?

- We haven't been told who contacted the guy, but the blame has still been immediately placed on GW regardless of who it actually was.
- He doesn't appear to have been told to stop working on his mods - something that would completely defeat the point of there being a workshop for the game in the first place, anyway.
- Neither does he appear to have been told his patreon itself is not allowed.
- The result of what has happened here so far has been that he's removed the patreon/paid links from his workshop files, and taken the mentions of Warhammer off his Patreon. That implies what he appears to be have told, is he can't use the Warhammer IP in order to pretty much advertise his patreon.
- CA's workshop terms say you're not allowed to monetize your work in the first place, which he was apparently doing by having parts of things locked behind a paywall.
- Other modders don't seem to have had this happen to them
- This guy supposedly doesn't have too good a reputation within the modding community in the first place.

Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what. There always seems to be a lot of misrepresenting or using ridiculous arguments that take things to an absurd level in order to try and dismiss stuff regardless of what the facts of the situation are.

They don't appear to be "going after modders" because of anything at all to do with the mods themselves.

Not only that, but another modder has said that what has been said here is misleading.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 13:32:14


 
   
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Annandale, VA

 Flipsiders wrote:
From a non-legal standpoint, do you see an issue with a company releasing a broken or incomplete product under the assumption that people can just add in the extra components themselves afterward?


For one thing, that's de facto Bethesda, and modders have been dutifully fixing their games for two decades. The vast majority of that time there's been no monetization avenue available. So whether or not the modders can have a Patreon is really not the issue there.

But Bethesda's attitude isn't widespread, their games are rightfully panned on release for game-breaking bugs and incompleteness, and most importantly the majority of gamers don't deal with mods at all. The people who are willing to deal with downloading a mod manager and troubleshooting load orders- or even just going to the Steam workshop to sort the wheat from the chaff- represent a niche within gamers. Modding has brought new life to otherwise unsuccessful games, but deliberately half-baking a game and counting on modders has never seemed to be a viable business strategy.

Second, it's not like the idea of being able to take donations or direct payment for fixing/improving a product is a novel concept for which we have no precedent and cannot predict the effects; it's a common practice that's only sticky in the digital realm thanks to three decades of corporate litigation eroding competition and consumer rights. The fact that I can host a Youtube tech tips channel showing how to fix common problems does not appear to have resulted in a culture where household appliances and consumer electronics are regularly released broken or incomplete under the assumption that you can just fix it yourself. And if that were the case, why would the appropriate solution be to demonetize that Youtube channel, rather than holding the company accountable?

Modders having Patreons for their work is harmless. Mods only represent a threat to a company's profitability if the company develops paid DLC that overlaps with content already developed and offered for free by the community; but in that case whether the modder has a tip jar or not is irrelevant.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what.


And what about those who choose to interpret any sort of criticism of general industry practices as 'GW evil'?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 14:00:08


   
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Central Cimmeria

 Arbitrator wrote:
 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.

I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 catbarf wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what.


And what about those who choose to interpret any sort of criticism of general industry practices as 'GW evil'?


There's nothing wrong with criticism or disagreeing, but when it involves things like immediately portraying GW as unequivocally in the wrong regardless of the facts of it (like here, where we don't know who contacted him or what was said, yet some are saying they'll do things like go after battle reports next), then that's a different situation.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 14:12:46


 
   
Made in gb
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 Arbitrator wrote:
I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


 Gallahad wrote:
I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.


Yeah, I too really hope they go after the livelihoods of hobbyists doing nothing wrong and shut down some of the biggest pieces of free marketing GW could hope for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 14:15:12


 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

I genuinely don't think battle reports or the like are the "free marketing" you believe them to be.

They get exposure from it, certainly, but how many of these batreps are actually done in a way that new players can really understand? Most of the ones that I've had suggested to me via YouTube are tourney lists and loaded up with talk about "The Meta".
   
Made in gb
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 Gert wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


 Gallahad wrote:
I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.


Yeah, I too really hope they go after the livelihoods of hobbyists doing nothing wrong and shut down some of the biggest pieces of free marketing GW could hope for.


Theres a lesson to be learned about GW...when they shrink we see more of other companies products, when they grow we see less. ATM GW is quite popular and still growing and you dont hear much about what others are doing.

So I welcome people not supporting a company that has no interest in working with you and switch to other equally cool projects. Its actually a good thing if most drop covering or talking about GW. They clearly dont need any of our support to grow.

   
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North Carolina

 Kanluwen wrote:
I genuinely don't think battle reports or the like are the "free marketing" you believe them to be.

They get exposure from it, certainly, but how many of these batreps are actually done in a way that new players can really understand? Most of the ones that I've had suggested to me via YouTube are tourney lists and loaded up with talk about "The Meta".


Lolwut, the most ubiquitous ones (Tabletop Tactics, Winters SEO, Striking Scorpion, I guess MWG still kinda) are pretty accessible. And then you have things like Vanguard Tactics where there is a concerted effort to explain lists and in-game tactics. This is just off base.

GW 100% gets more money out of me because of the batrep ecosystem. I watch batreps with the factions I like while painting them, I see great/cool/interesting things happen, it makes me want more models and I impulse buy, it's a very good feedback loop for GW and I'm probably far from the only person who engages in it (even if I hate myself for it a little). The stuff GW puts out is definitely lacking in quality in comparison to Winters and TTT.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Kanluwen wrote:
I genuinely don't think battle reports or the like are the "free marketing" you believe them to be.

They were for me. Watching people play Apoc battles on YT is the number one reason I expanded most of my armies, Apoc was the endgame and all of us wanted to get there.

They get exposure from it, certainly, but how many of these batreps are actually done in a way that new players can really understand? Most of the ones that I've had suggested to me via YouTube are tourney lists and loaded up with talk about "The Meta".

Channels like MWG and StrikingScorpion82 pretty much filled my Warhammer content when I was first getting into the hobby, watching things like Apocalypticon and Narrative Campaigns.
Obviously, times have changed and clickbait title "news" channels get all the views.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Theres a lesson to be learned about GW...when they shrink we see more of other companies products, when they grow we see less. ATM GW is quite popular and still growing and you dont hear much about what others are doing.

So I welcome people not supporting a company that has no interest in working with you and switch to other equally cool projects. Its actually a good thing if most drop covering or talking about GW. They clearly dont need any of our support to grow.

You can support other companies without wanting people to lose their income. That's what I'm opposing here.
Play all the games you want but don't be a prat because a YouTuber isn't covering Bolt Action. I like other TTWG's that aren't GW games but they don't make for good viewing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 14:35:46


 
   
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Affton, MO. USA

 Gert wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


 Gallahad wrote:
I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.


Yeah, I too really hope they go after the livelihoods of hobbyists doing nothing wrong and shut down some of the biggest pieces of free marketing GW could hope for.


GW wants to handle their own marketing, which is their right. Some Youtubers I have seen are atrocious and I would not like to have them representing my brand. GW is not concerned about our livelihoods plain and simple. It is not their responsibility to support us. They are a business that is trying to control how they are perceived by the general public, not an online forum. If these battle reports are the only way people are coming into the game (Really stretching imagination with that ), then you want to make sure that the people making them are putting out quality material and not just making money off of your name and product.

I'd love to see some other systems covered as well. I have seen some great videos created by people here on DakkaDakka to promote games that don't ask for money in return.

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If that is done as an income then its a different ball game and I urge them to start covering other games for sure, I mean take all the risks you want but dont be surprised if you put all the eggs in just one basket that is not yours.


   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Right, so it's 100% clear. GW isn't going after BatRep Channels but posters here said they should.
I am saying these posters are being prats for wanting to remove people's incomes just because they play GW games on their channels.
Is that clear?
Play whatever games you want but don't wish harm on someone else just because they play GW games and make money off it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 14:50:50


 
   
Made in be
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 Gert wrote:
Right, so it's 100% clear. GW isn't going after BatRep Channels but posters here said they should.
I am saying these posters are being prats for wanting to remove people's incomes just because they play GW games on their channels.
Is that clear?
Play whatever games you want but don't wish harm on someone else just because they play GW games and make money off it.


No. They are rather reacting to the fearmongering / doom prophets saying that GW could go next after battle report channels.

Because, let's be honest ; if GW is giving free copies of their books in advance to some of these channels, that's already a sign that they have no interest to go after them.


Like someone said on Reddit : on brand protection, in comparison to others companies, GW is actually quite generous with the handling of their IP. They don't go as far as they could do like, say, Disney or Nintendo.

Youtubers making "outrage" videos about them and calling for boycott should be aware of that already. You don't want a GW handling things like Disney or Nintendo, watch my words. If that happens, boy you will wish we could go back to these current days...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 15:03:00


 
   
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GW is unpredictable and that should have been clear to everyone when several years ago the IP showed its ugly face on forums and community.

What Im saying is games mods, channels etc that do it for fun have nothing to lose but if these guys go all feet in for profits as a business then be prepared to act like one.

Some business win others lose some take calculated risks others dont... I really dont care.

Theres plenty of games and war-games to be involved in so yeah branch out if you want or need to ( seems like a good thing rather than the GW saturation we see today).

   
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 NAVARRO wrote:

Theres plenty of games and war-games to be involved in so yeah branch out if you want or need to ( seems like a good thing rather than the GW saturation we see today).


There is a simple reason for that : it's because it brings more viewers.

Like it or not, GW is the bigger market in miniature games. So, of course channels doing money out of it would want to use a license that already has a wide audience. It means more viewers for them, and potentially more backers too.

That's why the current argument used by Youtubers using Warhammer IP saying their channels give free advertisement to GW isn't entirely true..they conveniently forget to say that without GW, they wouldn't be where they are. They may not even exist at all in some cases. True, some of their viewers certainly came into the Hobby thanks to their channel, but I think the opposite is more than often true as well : Warhammer fans do enjoy Warhammer content, after all, and they are mostly the ones coming to watch channels using Warhammer IP.

Shifting to an obscure game won't mean they'll gain success. That's why Alfabusa was so afraid as well to say he stops doing Warhammer : he was afraid of losing his audience and, thus, money. For now, thanks to this buzz and sympathy brought to him, the opposite happened...but will it last after it stops getting in the news ? That's the real question here.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 15:48:25


 
   
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Richmond, VA

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So am I missing something here?

- We haven't been told who contacted the guy, but the blame has still been immediately placed on GW regardless of who it actually was.
- He doesn't appear to have been told to stop working on his mods - something that would completely defeat the point of there being a workshop for the game in the first place, anyway.
- Neither does he appear to have been told his patreon itself is not allowed.
- The result of what has happened here so far has been that he's removed the patreon/paid links from his workshop files, and taken the mentions of Warhammer off his Patreon. That implies what he appears to be have told, is he can't use the Warhammer IP in order to pretty much advertise his patreon.
- CA's workshop terms say you're not allowed to monetize your work in the first place, which he was apparently doing by having parts of things locked behind a paywall.
- Other modders don't seem to have had this happen to them
- This guy supposedly doesn't have too good a reputation within the modding community in the first place.

Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what. There always seems to be a lot of misrepresenting or using ridiculous arguments that take things to an absurd level in order to try and dismiss stuff regardless of what the facts of the situation are.

They don't appear to be "going after modders" because of anything at all to do with the mods themselves.

Not only that, but another modder has said that what has been said here is misleading.


Thank you for this summary. It was getting painful slogging through a bunch of back and forth from people inventing or guessing at what actually happened.

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 Just Tony wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
No, GW told at least one animator that they had to take down their videos whether they were monetized or not.

Plus, GW would probably claim it owned the IP rights to the concept of a cat.


Why are you here? I mean, you obviously detest GW on a cellular level, so why participate in ANYTHING to do with their hobbies?


I'm here to discuss topics related to tabletop gaming - you know, the purpose of these forums - not to personally insult people. Your motives appear to be different.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:


Well, uh, good thing this thread has nothing to do with TTS then, right?


Well, that was on me and my multi-multi-tab habit, wasn't it? Sorry!
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







@Sarouan

I'm aware of that and thats why a cat licking his bum on a YouTube video has 10 millions of views while an in-depth tutorial about drawing feline anatomy has 10 views.

But by that line of thought there should be no TTG videos either since they are such a small flick of YT interests.

Like I said on the Alfa thread I welcome him moving away from GW and that he should really try to find another Part time job, exactly for the same reasons here.

You choose to work/get an income from an unpredictable company, by your own choice, theres no agreements or negotiations or conversations etc. Its of no surprise that you may be closed down.

Similar to game mods I guess, not sure if there was pre agreements.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 16:06:14


   
 
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