Walking away from a game on turn 2 to deny your opponent victory points?

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**Leo_the_Rat**

I'm just throwing this out here without much forethought. Wouldn't it be interesting to use opponents total battle score as the tie breaker?That would mean that the person whose opponents had the highest scores would win the tie.

For example A & B went 3-0. Player A's opponents had 25, 50 and 50 battle points so his total would be 125. Player B's opponents scored 45, 0 (he conceded the game) and 60 points so his total would be 105. Player A wins the tie due to higher opponent score. You could be more complex by making it their opponent's total scores but that might lead to too much paperwork.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

The problem with "Scores" is they can be HEAVILY manipulated. The video I mentioned literally talked about how a tournament player basically STOPPED playing after the 3rd turn, because he knew he had won, but wanted to stay under 80 points. (Ended up getting 79). Therefor he advanced, but was paired with the weakest of the other winners, thus basically giving him a much stronger advantage in making it to finals.

This happens in professional sports a lot. The best way I have seen it is the NFL playoff method. Strongest team faces weakest teams, until the two strongest are paired, and that's the final game, or Superbowl.

You can't do that in 40k as there is no set "player ranking" system in existence. The individual events use scores, and that, as I have said, causes issues. What would fix this is a player data base, like how the FGC goes about it. Each players wins, loses, and matchups are tracked, and put into an algorithm that determines their "ranking". Granted that is a multi-million dollar industry in just ad revenue alone, and 40k tournaments rarely crack of 1000 people.

Just for clarification, in the last EVO tournament (2019) the matches alone cracked over 5 million hours of watched content.

https://archive.esportsobserver.com/evo2019-twitch-viewership/

40k will never adapt, as it's not in their interest to put in the work for a tiny hobby like this.

**Karol**

yeah. why finish at the top of your group, when then it means you end up in a death group with four other top basket picks, suddenly getting to enjoy a premature final in round two. People don't want to see top contenders get kicked out before the semi finals. So you play in a such a way to enter from spot 2, and get opponents from the weaker baskets. Unless you are some kazakh mad man, who just manhandles people in their own class. Probably by using shamanic magic to cancel a second set of arms

As soon as w40k gets players or teams people are a fan of, they will have to do something about it. Because no one wants to see 3-4 best teams play round one against each other and give people a premature championship fight. Because this means people aren't watching the rest of the games and sponsors don't like that.

**Vatsetis**

Sponsors??? So the possibility someone in the future might turn 40K into a"ESport"(Tsport?) somehow justify beingva jerk today in a friendly enviroment.

This is a pathological level of insanity.

BTW is hard for 40k turn into a TSPORT because its very boring to watch... To much down time between actions.

**Karol**

How is having sponsors bad? People make a good living and are able to help their families, finish school etc because sponsors and scholarship programs exist. Why shouldn't there be one for w40k. If starcraft can have them and a big industry related to them, why not w40k?

And if it is insanity, well then you have to explain it not to me but to organisations like FIFA or IOC or any sports league. Go tell all people who went to collage thanks to companies sponsoring sports teams, that what they and the companies did was insanity. Or that it was somehow pathological.

**BrianDavion**

Karol wrote:
How is having sponsors bad? People make a good living and are able to help their families, finish school etc because sponsors and scholarship programs exist. Why shouldn't there be one for w40k. If starcraft can have them and a big industry related to them, why not w40k?

And if it is insanity, well then you have to explain it not to me but to organisations like FIFA or IOC or any sports league. Go tell all people who went to collage thanks to companies sponsoring sports teams, that what they and the companies did was insanity. Or that it was somehow pathological.

40k isn't some big sports event (thanks fething god) and it never will be, despite all the compeitive try-hards who think it could be.... yeah no it won't ever be.

**Karol**

But it could be. There is a large market for it, ton of people playing it. Why shouldn't it have teams, media coverage and sponsors. It would only help everyone. The rules would have to be updated faster, there could be more sesons and sesonal tournament packs. Just because there are sponors it wouldn't mean it is illegal to play w40k without out.

From what I understand in the US the ITC format is very popular, and a lot of rules implemented for events there made it in to 8th and 9th ed. Plus people who play in the ITC events and win a lot, also managed to get in to playtesters teams. Of course a professional league at the time of covid is not going to happen. Establish events were called off because of it. It would be beneficial for GW too. They need material for their little media empire, and streaming know and liked players in big events could be a part ot it. And if there is a strong median presence there is always people willing to sponsor stuff.
It costs next to nothing for people durning an event to drink only G-Fuel.

**Cyel**

40k is too random, imprecise, unbalanced and boring to become a sport.

**BrianDavion**

Cyel wrote:
40k is too random, imprecise, unbalanced and boring to become a sport.

that and I don't think ANY table top wargame has ever become a big sport. there's proably just not sufficant intreast in it

**endlesswaltz123**

Karol wrote:
But it could be. There is a large market for it, ton of people playing it. Why shouldn't it have teams, media coverage and sponsors. It would only help everyone. The rules would have to be updated faster, there could be more sesons and sesonal tournament packs. Just because there are sponors it wouldn't mean it is illegal to play w40k without out.

From what I understand in the US the ITC format is very popular, and a lot of rules implemented for events there made it in to 8th and 9th ed. Plus people who play in the ITC events and win a lot, also managed to get in to playtesters teams. Of course a professional league at the time of covid is not going to happen. Establish events were called off because of it. It would be beneficial for GW too. They need material for their little media empire, and streaming know and liked players in big events could be a part ot it. And if there is a strong median presence there is always people willing to sponsor stuff.
It costs next to nothing for people durning an event to drink only G-Fuel.

You do not understand actually how expensive it is to run events that are recorded/streamed for every game which would be required at the E-sport side. The only way to make it cost viable is if a tourney had their own video production company (which is an outlay of capital in itself). You need to have a massive fan base paying to make it worthwhile. Then in addition to this, whilst the hobby is large, and the viewership is high, the appetite for such rigid competitive play is only a niche within that. I watch loads of batrep videos, but I'd never watch a tournament. I've stated this before and I'll state it again, the channels that do well with bat rep videos, it's just as much the player personality/charisma that is the draw for watching - this is crucial as there is a lot of down time and inactivity in games, whereas personality of players is fairly irrelevant in video games/actual sports during competition as they are usually bar the most niche sports (bowls etc) quite fast or constant in terms of action. Cagey tournament players, not saying a lot other than declaring actions is not going to be good viewership, not to mention how long the games are.

If 40k ever becomes an E-Sport, it won't last long as operators will realise the profitability for effort is far too low, if it is profitable at that and they will channel their efforts into other areas.

**Strg Alt**

BrianDavion wrote:
Karol wrote:
How is having sponsors bad? People make a good living and are able to help their families, finish school etc because sponsors and scholarship programs exist. Why shouldn't there be one for w40k. If starcraft can have them and a big industry related to them, why not w40k?

And if it is insanity, well then you have to explain it not to me but to organisations like FIFA or IOC or any sports league. Go tell all people who went to collage thanks to companies sponsoring sports teams, that what they and the companies did was insanity. Or that it was somehow pathological.

40k isn't some big sports event (thanks fething god) and it never will be, despite all the compeitive try-hards who think it could be.... yeah no it won't ever be.

However, you might get women to watch those matches, if you tell them that Ronaldo plays 40K and that he takes off his shirt after round one...
As long as nasty neckbeards are on camera no one will want to watch this mess.

**Gert**

The most competitive thing I've done with 40k is local GW tournaments where people competed for a GW voucher. Top notch competitive lists like all tank Guard with a random Tyranid Prime. Legit the only people who tryharded were a rich kid who actively cheated and then lost anyway and a kid who tried to cheat, then lost all their games and chucked their dice at the wall. Cheaters never prosper kids.

**Spoletta**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Not sure exactly what a "technical document" means. The post I linked is a very thorough and balanced explanation of why it works better, while acknowledging its limitations. Magic went through this years ago, there might be some stuff out there from their experience I guess.

40k's just behind the times here, there's not a whole lot more to it. The fact that pretty much everyone uses SoS now isn't some big conspiracy where everyone except GW is doing it wrong, it's that GW is still stuck in the stone age and TOs have been reluctant to strike out on their own, especially with GW having reasserted control over the competitive game with the release of 9th.

I cannot believe Brandt hasn't already been bombarded with SoS-based proposals. That GW hasn't yet embraced it is presumably due to resistance from within the company; I have no idea whether that resistance is Brandt himself, or someone higher up the chain.

Actually, TOs don't have that excuse here.
VPs decide the winner of that match and only that.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that they are to be used as a tiebreaker. Events that use them as tiebreakers are just applying an house rule, and they are doing it out of habit since it was the way that ITC did things in 8th.
The Orlando Open which was an official GW event, didn't use it as first tiebreaker. The first tiebreaker was the W/L score of the first 2 days. The player that arrived 4th, had lower total VPs than the one that arrived 5th.

**Arachnofiend**

Cyel wrote:
40k is too random, imprecise, unbalanced and boring to become a sport.

To be fair, people make a lot of money playing Hearthstone.

**Slipspace**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Cyel wrote:
40k is too random, imprecise, unbalanced and boring to become a sport.

To be fair, people make a lot of money playing Hearthstone.

Fair point. Blizzard put up a lot of the money for that. Also, Hearthstone games are quick, it's relatively easy to understand the rules and follow what's happening.

**Blackie**

Karol wrote:
BrianDavion 800448 11202521 wrote:

yeah and the principal english word for describing it is Being an donkey-cave. don't try to justify your sociopathy kid

It is a regular behaviour durning sports. It is a sociopathic as breathing. Go ask someone who played professional or semi professional sports or even played at school or any trainer. It is not being an donkey-cave. Being an donkey-cave in sports is something like. You win or are winning 5 to 1, and then just before the match ends you kick the other dude in the throat. Because you really don't like him, for what ever reason. And guess what happens then? The KO does with the damage throat becomes the olympic champion and the guy with the more points gets disqualified. And now has problem with any organisation that does beting .

No, it's not, we're talking about abandoning a game as a tactic. In a sport a team/athelte who walks aways auto loses with a high result (0-3 in football for example) and in many cases also gets a penalty to deduct from the upcoming game or the points which have already been scored from previous games.

**Gert**

"Why was I disqualified and arrested? All I did was shatter my opponent's kneecaps with a steel bat."

**Deadnight**

Stuff like that is typical for toxic competitiveness.

Back in the day, it was expected that you give a sportsmanship score to your opponent and it was to encourage everyone to be nice. Well,plenty competitives would simply give a sportsmanship of 0 to their opponents and missing the point of the endeavour. Gw changed it in the end.

Also running the clock in a way to deny the other player the use of their turn was another doozy.

Also pro circuit 40k is a pipe dream. There's not the money, fan base or interest for this.

**Cyel**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Cyel wrote:
40k is too random, imprecise, unbalanced and boring to become a sport.

To be fair, people make a lot of money playing Hearthstone.

I have no first hand experience with Heartstone but my guess is it isn't:

-imprecise -no physical components that are placed precariously on other physical components and can be accidentally dropped, bumped, shoved etc

-boring- the subjective opinion on the game itself notwithstanding, games are quick with instantaneous resolution, direct opposite to 40k. A streamer may play dozens a day and choose the best ones for their viewers

**AndrewGPaul**

You don't need some really complicated set of rules with thousands of definitions of every possible infraction - you just need to let event judges use their judgement and kick people out. If that works for events with serious money on the line like professional football, it'll work for some games of toy soldiers.

As for the original problem, reminds me of Ayrton Senna running Alain Prost off the track at turn 1 of the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix. It worked, but that's something that sticks; Senna's one of the best drivers in the world, but there's that one time ...

**Blackie**

AndrewGPaul wrote:

As for the original problem, reminds me of Ayrton Senna running Alain Prost off the track at turn 1 of the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix. It worked, but that's something that sticks; Senna's one of the best drivers in the world, but there's that one time ...

It's definitely not the same. For a fair comparison imagine a Champions league game between Real Madrid and Manchester City, last game of the group stage. Real Madrid is already qualified to next stage, Manchester City needs to win with 4-0 or a better result otherwise it's eliminated. At halftime City leads 3-0, two spanish players have been sent off with a red card in the first half, but then Real Madrid players say: "Ok, we quit and you won, we can't win the game at this point or even get a draw. We have another important game soon and we don't want to waste time and energy playing a game that is lost already". Final result is 3-0 for City which is eliminated, not being able to score the 4th goal.

**Jidmah**

Gert wrote:
"Why was I disqualified and arrested? All I did was shatter my opponent's kneecaps with a steel bat."

I remember that there is a MTG player with a life-time ban from official events (which is almost all of them) for setting his opponent's deck on fire.

**Slipspace**

Blackie wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:

As for the original problem, reminds me of Ayrton Senna running Alain Prost off the track at turn 1 of the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix. It worked, but that's something that sticks; Senna's one of the best drivers in the world, but there's that one time ...

It's definitely not the same. For a fair comparison imagine a Champions league game between Real Madrid and Manchester City, last game of the group stage. Real Madrid is already qualified to next stage, Manchester City needs to win with 4-0 or a better result otherwise it's eliminated. At halftime City leads 3-0, two spanish players have been sent off with a red card in the first half, but then Real Madrid players say: "Ok, we quit and you won, we can't win the game at this point or even get a draw. We have another important game soon and we don't want to waste time and energy playing a game that is lost already". Final result is 3-0 for City which is eliminated, not being able to score the 4th goal.

That's not what would happen in that scenario. The footballing authorities have wide-ranging powers to protect the integrity of their competition. That would almost certainly be deemed a match-fixing/manipulation offence which would likely get Real Madrid ejected from the competition for failing to respect the integrity of said competition.

For 40k, this comes back to what AndrewGPaul said. For concessions some sort of pre-planned resolution would be good as they're a common enough occurrence. For the vast majority of other attempts at manipulation, bending the rules, cheating etc not already covered you just need a wide-ranging clause that allows the TO to decide suitable punishments for things they deem to be against the spirit or intent of the competition. You don't need to codify every last possible scenario to empower TOs.

**the_scotsman**

Karol wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Karol wrote:
Yep. Seen it done, often enough to consider it being a regular thing. It is like your trainer ask you to hurt a guy from another school, when they know you will not rank anyway. Some people don't like it, but playing the rules is as important as playing the game.

Its not playing the rules, its being a dick.

you gain nothing from preventing others from achieving better results.

Imagine thinking that voluntarily hurting someone should be normal, absolutely flying rodent gak insane opinion.

I think, the english language is full of terms of describing it. Take the knee, play the clock. For football fans there is the good old Italian cantenacio. It is a normal thing to do in sports, And you gain everything. First you make their chance to win lower. Second it maybe part of a bigger team tactic, if you came with other people from your area. It maybe part of trying to pre build opponent to specific people.

Ask someone playing american football or regular football, or basketball etc what a tactical foul is. And that is before any scholar ships, sponsorships etc get involved. If someone being out of the team means you get a good life as a professional and get scouted you definitly will think about it. And when the sport is big and involved milions, and on top of that betting, then sky is the limit to what people are willing to do.

If you think a gamey maneuver that wins the game by manipulating clock time is the moral equivalent of a gamey maneuver that injures an opposing sportsman potentially permanently destroying their ability to play, then I pity you and don't look forward to the consequences you'll face in life for being taught that.

No human pulls a punch less than one thrown in retribution.

**Catulle**

Gert wrote:
The most competitive thing I've done with 40k is local GW tournaments where people competed for a GW voucher. Top notch competitive lists like all tank Guard with a random Tyranid Prime. Legit the only people who tryharded were a rich kid who actively cheated and then lost anyway and a kid who tried to cheat, then lost all their games and chucked their dice at the wall. Cheaters never prosper kids.

I don't know, a couple of the names from a recent Goonhammer article have been caught cheating on camera before now, and yet seem to keep drifting back.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

In response to the argument that 40k will never have E-sports levels of televised matches:

What is GW trying to do then with 40kTV? Or their 40k Brackets league? Or any of their investment in the world of competitive 40k? Because it's easy to shove chibi SM commercials at the crowds in this type of instance. GW wants into the competitive gaming scene.

If MTG tournaments draw 5k-10k viewers on twitch every time they run, do you really think GW is sitting back and saying, we don't want that money. We just want to sell comics and chibis?

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I witnessed this happen twice last weekend, and was unsure about the legality or correct thing to do in this situation. Basically the first game was between DA and DE. The DE player did a REALLY great first turn, and basically won close to max points, the second player had a lot of his stuff in reserve, and dropped in in on his turn, mostly inceptors and Assault Marines. He did a lot of strong work, and got most of his points for that round, only losing points in objectives and killing the warlord. On the second turn, the DA player does the hand shake and says I quit, thus "ending the game". The DE player asks if they can keep playing it out because he needs the points for his standings. The DA player had already picked up some of his guys, and apologized, but said he didn't want to waste the time. This effectively killed the DE player's chances and cut him off at around 25% of his possible points.

The second game was Ad Mech vs Ultra Marines, and basically the same thing happened, except it was Admech instead of DE, and the Marines player cut him off at the knees on the 2nd turn.

Is this allowable? What is the recourse for a player who gets cut off before the end of the game, and is unable to score more points? Are they just screwed for the rest of the tournament? It feels like there has to be more of a fix out there for this, otherwise we'd see it a lot more in an attempt to fix the brackets.

Normally, a concession awards max points for the opponent, or permits the opponent to play out the remaining turns as if all enemy models had been destroyed.

**Slipspace**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In response to the argument that 40k will never have E-sports levels of televised matches:

What is GW trying to do then with 40kTV? Or their 40k Brackets league? Or any of their investment in the world of competitive 40k? Because it's easy to shove chibi SM commercials at the crowds in this type of instance. GW wants into the competitive gaming scene.

If MTG tournaments draw 5k-10k viewers on twitch every time they run, do you really think GW is sitting back and saying, we don't want that money. We just want to sell comics and chibis?

They can try whatever they want but they're not likely to succeed. MTG is vastly more popular than 40k, which gives it a big leg up in the streaming and competition stakes. Even if that weren't the case MTG lends itself better to streaming. You can see how slick the streaming is for MTG with the card overlays and knowledgeable commentators, which make it easier to follow the game.

40k has some huge barriers to becoming a successful streaming event. The main problem is it takes far too long. You're talking 3-4 hours for a single game. And during that time it's really difficult to follow what's happening because you either have a whole-board view that is too zoomed-out to be of any use, or a close-up that gives no context. Things like LoS and range are really important factors in 40k and you don't get to see any of that on stream. 40k is massively unbalanced as well, which leads to less interest in the ling run. It has far too many dice rolls to follow, which robs it of any drama. In a game like X-Wing or MTG you can see a single high-impact dice roll or play have an immediate effect but 40k doesn't really have that. Even if you get lucky in with one particular unit's shooting the process is so drawn out you don't get the same impact from it.

**Blackie**

Slipspace wrote:
Blackie wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:

As for the original problem, reminds me of Ayrton Senna running Alain Prost off the track at turn 1 of the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix. It worked, but that's something that sticks; Senna's one of the best drivers in the world, but there's that one time ...

It's definitely not the same. For a fair comparison imagine a Champions league game between Real Madrid and Manchester City, last game of the group stage. Real Madrid is already qualified to next stage, Manchester City needs to win with 4-0 or a better result otherwise it's eliminated. At halftime City leads 3-0, two spanish players have been sent off with a red card in the first half, but then Real Madrid players say: "Ok, we quit and you won, we can't win the game at this point or even get a draw. We have another important game soon and we don't want to waste time and energy playing a game that is lost already". Final result is 3-0 for City which is eliminated, not being able to score the 4th goal.

That's not what would happen in that scenario. The footballing authorities have wide-ranging powers to protect the integrity of their competition. That would almost certainly be deemed a match-fixing/manipulation offence which would likely get Real Madrid ejected from the competition for failing to respect the integrity of said competition.

For 40k, this comes back to what AndrewGPaul said. For concessions some sort of pre-planned resolution would be good as they're a common enough occurrence. For the vast majority of other attempts at manipulation, bending the rules, cheating etc not already covered you just need a wide-ranging clause that allows the TO to decide suitable punishments for things they deem to be against the spirit or intent of the competition. You don't need to codify every last possible scenario to empower TOs.

That's exactly what would happen IF UEFA didn't have the rules to prevent situations like this. In real life Real Madrid would be forced to play or gets disqualified from the competition, possibly from the next one as well and/or forced to pay a fine. Situations like the one described by the OP happen because the TOs haven't figured that scenario out and there is no rule that describes how to proceed if that happens.

Put a penalty on those who quit, even a monetary fine if necessary, and it won't happen. And if it does happen anyway, the other player would be refunded somehow. Monetary fine is actually quite easy as a solution: increase entering fees to partecipate the competition and give the players back the additional amount of money they paid at the end of the competition, like some sort of deposit. Unless situations like this one happens, in that case nothing is returned to that player.

**Racerguy180**

As long as there is dice involved, it can never be an actual sport. The entire game is built around randomness.