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So I witnessed this happen twice last weekend, and was unsure about the legality or correct thing to do in this situation. Basically the first game was between DA and DE. The DE player did a REALLY great first turn, and basically won close to max points, the second player had a lot of his stuff in reserve, and dropped in in on his turn, mostly inceptors and Assault Marines. He did a lot of strong work, and got most of his points for that round, only losing points in objectives and killing the warlord. On the second turn, the DA player does the hand shake and says I quit, thus "ending the game". The DE player asks if they can keep playing it out because he needs the points for his standings. The DA player had already picked up some of his guys, and apologized, but said he didn't want to waste the time. This effectively killed the DE player's chances and cut him off at around 25% of his possible points.

The second game was Ad Mech vs Ultra Marines, and basically the same thing happened, except it was Admech instead of DE, and the Marines player cut him off at the knees on the 2nd turn.

Is this allowable? What is the recourse for a player who gets cut off before the end of the game, and is unable to score more points? Are they just screwed for the rest of the tournament? It feels like there has to be more of a fix out there for this, otherwise we'd see it a lot more in an attempt to fix the brackets.

Dick move

Ohh the delights of "competitive" 40k... They never get old

Yep. Seen it done, often enough to consider it being a regular thing. It is like your trainer ask you to hurt a guy from another school, when they know you will not rank anyway. Some people don't like it, but playing the rules is as important as playing the game.

If it's a tournament or league of some kind there should be rules for concessions. The reason is precisely because of situations like this, where a player concedes and denies their opponent the opportunity to score points that count towards their overall standings.

If it's just a pick-up game it's not great to just concede so quickly. I can understand it if the game has gone in such a way that there's no way to win and one player doesn't want to waste their time playing a lost game. If it's a pick-up game and it's that soon I'd probably just restart.

Don't they normally have rules giving bonuses to people whose opponents drop out?

Karol wrote:
Yep. Seen it done, often enough to consider it being a regular thing. It is like your trainer ask you to hurt a guy from another school, when they know you will not rank anyway. Some people don't like it, but playing the rules is as important as playing the game.

Its not playing the rules, its being a dick.

you gain nothing from preventing others from achieving better results.

Imagine thinking that voluntarily hurting someone should be normal, absolutely flying rodent gak insane opinion.

Karol wrote:
Yep. Seen it done, often enough to consider it being a regular thing. It is like your trainer ask you to hurt a guy from another school, when they know you will not rank anyway. Some people don't like it, but playing the rules is as important as playing the game.

Firstly, deliberately hurting someone else just makes you a terrible person. Secondly, we're talking about 40k here, not life and death. Having fun is why people do it and looking to game the rules specifically so your opponent doesn't get an advantage is the sort of behaviour that has no place in any hobby. That said, a good tournament pack should cover this situation so I think the problem here lies with the TO as much as it does the players.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Don't they normally have rules giving bonuses to people whose opponents drop out?

In my local tournaments, if someone surrenders, the other player gets to speedrun their turns to see how many points they can get. (Of course its not optimal but its better than getting gimped of pts)

From 'Ending the Battle Early or Conceding', page 282 of the Core Rulebook:

If only one player wants to end the battle early then that player must concede and remove all their models from the battlefield. A player who concedes scores 0 victory points for that battle and their opponent is automatically the victor (even if they scored 0 victory points during the battle). The other player may continue to play out their turns until the battle ends if they wish, perhaps to accrue a few more victory points, or they can choose to end the battle now.

Of course Tournament and League Organizers may use their own house rules to cover this situation.

Even if the opponent picks up his pieces the player can still claim all his primary objective points and claim any secondary points that he has coming to him. The rationale is simple. All he has to do is move his pieces into the proper position(s) and claim the points for that turn. He then gives his, now gone, opponent a chance to respond. The opponent. obviously, doesn't respond so the player then takes his next turn. Repeat until all turns are complete. In terms of removal of enemy pieces he can claim them all since none are on the table at the end of the game. So, while this looks like a dick move it really enables the player to claim max or near max points.

Honestly they should go to the TO and ask how many points they're entitled to gain. My guess will be just what I said above.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Even if the opponent picks up his pieces the player can still claim all his primary objective points and claim any secondary points that he has coming to him. The rationale is simple. All he has to do is move his pieces into the proper position(s) and claim the points for that turn. He then gives his, now gone, opponent a chance to respond. The opponent. obviously, doesn't respond so the player then takes his next turn. Repeat until all turns are complete. In terms of removal of enemy pieces he can claim them all since none are on the table at the end of the game. So, while this looks like a dick move it really enables the player to claim max or near max points.

Honestly they should go to the TO and ask how many points they're entitled to gain. My guess will be just what I said above.

Only issue is for "kill" secondaries, but i'd rule it that removed models count as killed

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Yep. Seen it done, often enough to consider it being a regular thing. It is like your trainer ask you to hurt a guy from another school, when they know you will not rank anyway. Some people don't like it, but playing the rules is as important as playing the game.

Its not playing the rules, its being a dick.

you gain nothing from preventing others from achieving better results.

Imagine thinking that voluntarily hurting someone should be normal, absolutely flying rodent gak insane opinion.

Ah, Karol with his warped views of the world. Never change...

So now that I know there is an actual RULE in the BRB to avoid this, how do you actually score points for "slay the warlord" or what ever, if the other player has taken their minis off the table. Nothing in a book is going to keep minis on a table if the player learns their partner is in the ER and needs to leave ASAP. Or, as a worse situation, if the other player is a dick, and just removes the models from the board and says F off.

That rule doesn't give any sort of bonus or actual help to the player who just got screwed over.

You call over a referee and ask him.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So now that I know there is an actual RULE in the BRB to avoid this, how do you actually score points for "slay the warlord" or what ever, if the other player has taken their minis off the table. Nothing in a book is going to keep minis on a table if the player learns their partner is in the ER and needs to leave ASAP. Or, as a worse situation, if the other player is a dick, and just removes the models from the board and says F off.

That rule doesn't give any sort of bonus or actual help to the player who just got screwed over.

Just count your opponent as being tabled.

If reserves past turn 3 count as being slain, surely models "removed from the game" also count.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Yep. Seen it done, often enough to consider it being a regular thing. It is like your trainer ask you to hurt a guy from another school, when they know you will not rank anyway. Some people don't like it, but playing the rules is as important as playing the game.

Its not playing the rules, its being a dick.

you gain nothing from preventing others from achieving better results.

Imagine thinking that voluntarily hurting someone should be normal, absolutely flying rodent gak insane opinion.

I think, the english language is full of terms of describing it. Take the knee, play the clock. For football fans there is the good old Italian cantenacio. It is a normal thing to do in sports, And you gain everything. First you make their chance to win lower. Second it maybe part of a bigger team tactic, if you came with other people from your area. It maybe part of trying to pre build opponent to specific people.

Ask someone playing american football or regular football, or basketball etc what a tactical foul is. And that is before any scholar ships, sponsorships etc get involved. If someone being out of the team means you get a good life as a professional and get scouted you definitly will think about it. And when the sport is big and involved milions, and on top of that betting, then sky is the limit to what people are willing to do.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So now that I know there is an actual RULE in the BRB to avoid this, how do you actually score points for "slay the warlord" or what ever, if the other player has taken their minis off the table. Nothing in a book is going to keep minis on a table if the player learns their partner is in the ER and needs to leave ASAP. Or, as a worse situation, if the other player is a dick, and just removes the models from the board and says F off.

That rule doesn't give any sort of bonus or actual help to the player who just got screwed over.

If it's a tournament of league game you ask the TO or a judge to decide assuming there's nothing in the tournament rules to cover it (there usually is). If it's a pick-up game who cares?

Did they have a genuine reason for bowing out?

For example, the player receiving an emergency call.

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Yep. Seen it done, often enough to consider it being a regular thing. It is like your trainer ask you to hurt a guy from another school, when they know you will not rank anyway. Some people don't like it, but playing the rules is as important as playing the game.

Its not playing the rules, its being a dick.

you gain nothing from preventing others from achieving better results.

Imagine thinking that voluntarily hurting someone should be normal, absolutely flying rodent gak insane opinion.

I think, the english language is full of terms of describing it. Take the knee, play the clock. For football fans there is the good old Italian cantenacio. It is a normal thing to do in sports, And you gain everything. First you make their chance to win lower. Second it maybe part of a bigger team tactic, if you came with other people from your area. It maybe part of trying to pre build opponent to specific people.

Ask someone playing american football or regular football, or basketball etc what a tactical foul is. And that is before any scholar ships, sponsorships etc get involved. If someone being out of the team means you get a good life as a professional and get scouted you definitly will think about it. And when the sport is big and involved milions, and on top of that betting, then sky is the limit to what people are willing to do.

It still makes you an donkey-cave/insane person if you do it.

And again, why are you inserting your insane worldviews in 40k? 40k isn't the playoffs for the superbowl, its a fething boardgame.

In Warmachine tournament play if you scoop your opponent automatically scores maximum points. I presume if this phenomenon becomes common 40k TOs will get wise to it and introduce a similar rule.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In Warmachine tournament play if you scoop your opponent automatically scores maximum points. I presume if this phenomenon becomes common 40k TOs will get wise to it and introduce a similar rule.

IIRC This used to be a thing, but then you had players intentionally conceding to their buddies to propel them up the ladder.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So now that I know there is an actual RULE in the BRB to avoid this, how do you actually score points for "slay the warlord" or what ever, if the other player has taken their minis off the table. Nothing in a book is going to keep minis on a table if the player learns their partner is in the ER and needs to leave ASAP. Or, as a worse situation, if the other player is a dick, and just removes the models from the board and says F off.

That rule doesn't give any sort of bonus or actual help to the player who just got screwed over.

I would think it's fairly obvious... that model is considered destroyed.

It's the same as if you held a unit in reserve but forgot to deploy it at the end of the game. The rule does say it's considered destroyed (don't have the book with me to cite).

Given the wording around standings in the OP, I'm assuming this was happening in a tournament or event of some kind?

This is absolutely a "call a judge/TO" situation, assuming there isn't clear guidance given in the tournament pack as to what happens as a result of a concession.

Off the top of my head? I'd be saying max primary, potentially max secondary (I haven't got them all memorised, so can't say for sure), along with the painting VPs if applicable. Note that this might not be 100VPs, depending on secondaries and opponent.

I'd say stick with the BRB for the person conceding, so 0VPs.

This is that 'submarining' thing that's getting talked about in the Tournament sub-forum, isn't it? It's cropped up on a few 40k websites as well.

It should be an easy fix. If you walk away from a game, you are conceding. If you are conceding, you net 0 points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This is that 'submarining' thing that's getting talked about in the Tournament sub-forum, isn't it? It's cropped up on a few 40k websites as well.

It should be an easy fix. If you walk away from a game, you are conceding. If you are conceding, you net 0 points.

No, submarining is purposefully underscoring to game the standings, this is more like torpedoing someone elses VP by being a donk

 oni wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In Warmachine tournament play if you scoop your opponent automatically scores maximum points. I presume if this phenomenon becomes common 40k TOs will get wise to it and introduce a similar rule.

IIRC This used to be a thing, but then you had players intentionally conceding to their buddies to propel them up the ladder.

Yep. Common sense solutions are unfortunately often ruined by bad actors.

This all comes down to the problem of using battle points as a determining factor. It's just a bad system, in all sorts of ways, and other competitive games use much better ones. Someone put a good post on 40k competitive reddit a while ago on a better way to do things, basically what they do in magic where tiebreakers isn't battle points but instead based on how your opponents did in the their other games (i.e. if you two players go 4-0, the winner is determined not by battle points but by whose opponents had better records). It sounds unintuitive initially, but it really works. It addresses most of the bad behavior you see in 40k tournaments - submarining, conceding to deny your opponent points, seal clubbing, etc. There are still areas for exploitation, but they are much, much smaller.

The 40k competitive scene really needs to just open its eyes and realize it doesn't need to try to reinvent the wheel. Other games have this figured out, and it's just better.

edit: Here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/p1cl8l/battle_points_tiebreakers_are_bad_and_should_be/

There's box on page 6 of the grand tourney book that addresses concessions. It doesn't address what to do about secondary requiring destruction of enemy models but I would think that most TOs would rule that the enemy model would be "destroyed" the same turn as the concession took place. (For example, If your opponent quit at the end of turn 2 then that is when the model is detroyed).

I saw it happening on some tournaments as well, not 40k related, and also on some online platforms to avoid adding the loss to personal records. Serious organizers should simply give max points to the other player and a penalty on the guy that quit, if he some does that.

If resigning to screw other players out of points is legal then people should abuse it until GW changes the rule. On a slightly different twist, collusion playing for points is as old as chess. Playing competitive 40K by bringing a Team to support the group's top player then profit sharing prize winnings is a great strategy for tournaments (especially if you are a Russian chess player in the 1970's). I would be shocked if this is not happening somewhere in the current 40k tournament scene.

We are not talking friendly, casual play; tournaments are arenas for cut-throat competition. Honestly, I think if more gamers played sports there would not be so much whining about players going to great lengths to maintain competitive edge. Just wait until someone calls a time-out after you line up to kick a field goal...