Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wyldhunt wrote:
This is maybe a bit off-topic, but I actually kind of like the idea of embracing the "NPC faction" thing in certain contexts. Like, it could be cool to see some asymmetrical narrative missions (like the Challenge missions from one of the Chapter Approveds) that have juicy, flavorful rules that would be too clunky or imbalanced for competitive games.

So maybe there's a mission where my opponent's marines get to wipe out wave after wave of my tyranids, and the mission is designed such that he'll probably win or at least kill a disproportionate number of point sworth of models. But my tyranids get rules that let me respawn endless gaunts or shut off character auras with my lictors or place reusable ravener/trygon tunnels halfway through the game.

But that's probably a topic for a different thread.

You are talking about some sort of "Tower Defense" scenario like in video games. I have done such scenarios where opponents attack wave after wave though you need a bit of fine tuning, if you want to play against another person because these missions tend to best suited for single-player games. The Space Hulk boardgame also comes to mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
So far lack of proper mentality and cost seem to be an obstacle. Though I don't believe the latter is a valid reason as no one forces you to collect a large 40K army.

Which armies due to fluff should be presented as underdogs? Imo Traitor Guard, GSC and to some extent Orks would fit in that category. I can still remember a couple of White Dwarf battle reports in which the greenskins were used to make the other factions look good.

Why should orks be underdogs? They are a threat to humanity on a level only tyranids and chaos as a whole exceed. They have multiple large empires across the galaxy, have wiped out or almost wiped out multiple chapters, including big shots like the crimson fists and imperial fists, killed a primarch and directly attacked terra. I also don't think anyone but orks has fought a hive fleet to a halt. And that's before you even start to take Thrakka's deeds into consideration.
The primary reason why orks haven't archived more is because the Imperium has actually learned from the War of the Beast and now invests large amount of resources into the Deathwatch and the Ordo Xenos to make sure that orks don't rise to the same level as the did then.

They are used a lot as punching bags all over the lore and battle reports, but orks as a whole are one of the most dire threats to everyone.

because imperium players still no matter how many specific examples you give them from books will clam a space marine should be able to face an entire horde of orks (likely because the only lore they know is the space marine video game) and that a imperial guardsman should somehow be able to fix bayonet and go toe to toe with an ork. They don't even read the parts in the big rulebook that always tend to basically say "if orks banded together they could and would take over the galaxy, fortunately for all involved they are too busy fighting among themselves"

No to both of you. Orks have been presented in such a way because GW decided to put them in such a role. And labeling posts that you don't like as being sent by a "SM player" is poor form. Just take a look at those old battle reports for yourselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Guard is a designated loser faction as well, there's absolutely nobody I've ever met who's claimed that guardsmen vs orks in melee should be anywhere close to parity.

Then you won't like the novel "Straken" written by Toby Frost.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
This is maybe a bit off-topic, but I actually kind of like the idea of embracing the "NPC faction" thing in certain contexts. Like, it could be cool to see some asymmetrical narrative missions (like the Challenge missions from one of the Chapter Approveds) that have juicy, flavorful rules that would be too clunky or imbalanced for competitive games.

So maybe there's a mission where my opponent's marines get to wipe out wave after wave of my tyranids, and the mission is designed such that he'll probably win or at least kill a disproportionate number of point sworth of models. But my tyranids get rules that let me respawn endless gaunts or shut off character auras with my lictors or place reusable ravener/trygon tunnels halfway through the game.

But that's probably a topic for a different thread.

You are talking about some sort of "Tower Defense" scenario like in video games. I have done such scenarios where opponents attack wave after wave though you need a bit of fine tuning, if you want to play against another person because these missions tend to best suited for single-player games. The Space Hulk boardgame also comes to mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
So far lack of proper mentality and cost seem to be an obstacle. Though I don't believe the latter is a valid reason as no one forces you to collect a large 40K army.

Which armies due to fluff should be presented as underdogs? Imo Traitor Guard, GSC and to some extent Orks would fit in that category. I can still remember a couple of White Dwarf battle reports in which the greenskins were used to make the other factions look good.

Why should orks be underdogs? They are a threat to humanity on a level only tyranids and chaos as a whole exceed. They have multiple large empires across the galaxy, have wiped out or almost wiped out multiple chapters, including big shots like the crimson fists and imperial fists, killed a primarch and directly attacked terra. I also don't think anyone but orks has fought a hive fleet to a halt. And that's before you even start to take Thrakka's deeds into consideration.
The primary reason why orks haven't archived more is because the Imperium has actually learned from the War of the Beast and now invests large amount of resources into the Deathwatch and the Ordo Xenos to make sure that orks don't rise to the same level as the did then.

They are used a lot as punching bags all over the lore and battle reports, but orks as a whole are one of the most dire threats to everyone.

because imperium players still no matter how many specific examples you give them from books will clam a space marine should be able to face an entire horde of orks (likely because the only lore they know is the space marine video game) and that a imperial guardsman should somehow be able to fix bayonet and go toe to toe with an ork. They don't even read the parts in the big rulebook that always tend to basically say "if orks banded together they could and would take over the galaxy, fortunately for all involved they are too busy fighting among themselves"

No to both of you. Orks have been presented in such a way because GW decided to put them in such a role. And labeling posts that you don't like as being sent by a "SM player" is poor form. Just take a look at those old battle reports for yourselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Guard is a designated loser faction as well, there's absolutely nobody I've ever met who's claimed that guardsmen vs orks in melee should be anywhere close to parity.

Then you won't like the novel "Straken" written by Toby Frost.

"look at all these old battlereports"

again Citation needed, what battle report, what issue or white dwarf or are we talking third party things like miniwargaming on youtube? to try and prove your position do i need to watch every official gw report ever and order every issue of white dwarf i can find to prove your point for you? you make a claim then you need to have a source to defend it. I am happy to look at any source you provide but I do not accept "orks should be underpowered because i say it has always been that way"

Catachans have been referred to as "Baby Ogryn" for as long as I've been involved with 40k.

They're the exception, not the rule. It's why whenever these goofy "WHO WOULD WIN!!!1!!" threads come up, Catachans are generally considered to be their own thing.

@Goofy Smiley:

"Citation needed"

We are talking about battle reports from the late 90s to early 2000s published in WD. Good luck recovering the issue numbers.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

except space marines are not superior to ork boys

Anyone reasonable would have stopped reading your post here my friend. There's no point talking with people who think that a solitary ork boy is equal, let alone superior, to a space marine. Just look at how you preclude your assertion by trying to ignore a piece of lore that effortlessly disproves your assertion (namely three marines killing orks by the score in Space Marine). That lore doesn't count but yours does? Stop being biased and bluntly get over your marine envy my friend.

But sure, if you want an actual example, Saul Tarvitz outright states that the majority of the time a marine will kill an ork one on one, but ork strength is so variable that it depends.

Boys are mass-produced cannon fodder my friend. They're tougher and stronger than the mass-produced cannon fodder of some armies but that's still what they are.

2ed ork codex on page 28 it says, that ogryns are strong enough for ork warlords to often consider employing them in their armies. Unless the lore was changed later on, this seems to mean that orks respect the size and strenght of Ogryns well enough.

I have a weirder take on this in that I think any army that doesn't work the way it does in the fluff is 'sub-par'. So, for example, during the time when Nidzilla was dominant, I would consider them a 'sub-par' army despite their inherent power because they weren't acting the way 'Nids act in the fluff. That Codex was written cynically to sell a new Carnifex kit, and the rules reflected that through and through.

So if you army is powerful, but in order to make it powerful it has to look nothing like the way that army operates in fluff and artwork, then your army is sub-par because it doesn't function the way it should.

I realise that seems to put me at odds with scotsman, whose Grot army would fall under the heading of 'an army non-representative of the fluff' in that it's all Grots, but I would argue that:

1. From what he's said, he's using a lot of 'Counts As', so he has Stormboyz and Beastbosses or whatever, but with different models.
2. They did work prior to the new book, where GW made some really strange decisions regarding the Orks (reducing their shooting mobility... which makes zero sense).
3. The morale system us utterly fething broken, but it hits Orks (and grot units like Kanz and Guns) really hard.

 Gert wrote:
It wouldn't work with 40k.

I completely agree with this statement.

On a game this scale you can't just up and tell people "Sorry! Your army is a joke army. You're going to lose pretty much all the time, but remember to always have fun and forge that narrative!". No. That doesn't work.

Dudeface wrote:
The 40k Community has a large vocal group of people who love winning and are utterly obsessed with efficiency and power levels. An intentionally poor army would be viewed as a pointless wasted release and there'd be vocal backlash at GW for an army not being competitive.

Whilst I disagree with the first pat of that statement, I have to admit, such a vocal backlash would be in the right. And it would cause those 'joke' armies to languish with terrible sales.

There's a sizeable difference between a box of Snotlings for Blood Bowl, or a whole 'joke' army for 40k.

Karol wrote:
2ed ork codex on page 28 it says, that ogryns are strong enough for ork warlords to often consider employing them in their armies. Unless the lore was changed later on, this seems to mean that orks respect the size and strenght of Ogryns well enough.

They should do. Ogryn are massive. They're bigger than most Orks.

Vatsetis wrote:
WAAC metachasser rules layer ... Munchkin

I think you're just mashing words together in a vague attempt to assemble a point.

 Gert wrote:
You don't have Space Marines and T'au playing tennis as the primary mode of conflict.

Yet!!!





And were there any room in my sig, I'd put this quote there:

 vipoid wrote:
... seriously, it's crazy how every unit now has bespoke rules, yet at the same time there's so little actual variety.

The game has become too tournament focused for that. Back in the old days Orks were really flavorful to play......but also very very random, playing Orks was more about having fun and wondering what wonderfully crazy thing they were going to do....they could be super powerful.....but you just couldn't really count on anything. It didnt work well at all if you wanted to count on a win, but you could always count on having a fun and colorful game. If your mad boys ever actually did anything constructive....it was like getting a victory anyway. If Orks could get spectacle points in stead of victory points....or maybe when one of the really rare hilarious things happened ig gave some kind of army wide bonus....I don't know. I think there was a way to make that army work.....but instead GW just went lazy and pretty much made them just work like every other army because that is easier.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Goofy Smiley:

"Citation needed"

We are talking about battle reports from the late 90s to early 2000s published in WD. Good luck recovering the issue numbers.

So, essentially he is right. You think orks should be underpowered because you say so, despite entire novel series saying otherwise.

Not providing proof when asked is the same as admitting that you are wrong, except for also displaying a notable lack of integrity.

Just for the record, my sources are:
Codex: Orks in 4th, 8th and 9th
The fluff part of the supplement that shall not be named
Prophecy of the Wolf booklet
"The Beast Arises" novel series
"Helsreach" novel
"Rynn's World" novel
"The Saga of the Beast" audio book

You might also notice that most of those have been released later than those alleged battle reports published "late 90s to early 2000s". So even if those do exist, it's fairly safe to assume that they are no longer of any relevance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
2ed ork codex on page 28 it says, that ogryns are strong enough for ork warlords to often consider employing them in their armies. Unless the lore was changed later on, this seems to mean that orks respect the size and strenght of Ogryns well enough.

Sounds about right. From a pure gut feeling an ogryn should be slightly more powerful than a nob, but be crushed easily by an actual warboss. I think the stats reflect that well.

IIRC there should be a quote somewhere about an ork boss mourning that ogryns aren't properly green as they should be.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

except space marines are not superior to ork boys

Anyone reasonable would have stopped reading your post here my friend. There's no point talking with people who think that a solitary ork boy is equal, let alone superior, to a space marine. Just look at how you preclude your assertion by trying to ignore a piece of lore that effortlessly disproves your assertion (namely three marines killing orks by the score in Space Marine). That lore doesn't count but yours does? Stop being biased and bluntly get over your marine envy my friend.

But sure, if you want an actual example, Saul Tarvitz outright states that the majority of the time a marine will kill an ork one on one, but ork strength is so variable that it depends.

Boys are mass-produced cannon fodder my friend. They're tougher and stronger than the mass-produced cannon fodder of some armies but that's still what they are.

Just my 2 cents:
While not having all the little extras like acid saliva or the ability to learn your enemies secrets by eating their brain, I always felt the regular Ork boy - as depicted on the tabletop - is physically as able as, or even stronger than, your run of the mill Tactical Marine. So in a melee brawl without any equipment, chances are the Ork would win.

In a typical battle situation though, the Marine will outgear and outmaneuver the Ork boy. But there isn't just 1 Boy for 1 Marine...

 Jidmah wrote:
They have multiple large empires across the galaxy, have wiped out or almost wiped out multiple chapters, including big shots like the crimson fists and imperial fists, killed a primarch and directly attacked terra.

...which Primarch? Only 4.5 named Primarchs are conclusively/definitively dead, to my knowledge, all either during or shortly after the HH (Ferrus Manus, Alpharius (or Omegon, I lose track), Sanguinius, Horus, Konrad Curze).

Everyone else is either a Daemon Primarch or "passed into myth and legend", though Rogal Dorn does seem to have lost a hand along the way.

Didn't they kill

a_typical_hero wrote:
Didn't they kill

Spoiler:

Vulkan during the Beast Arises novel series?

they also killed him, repeatedly, in Vulkan lives, his whole sctich is he keeps coming back.I think Vulkan's died more often then Superman, Jean Grey and Optimus Prime Combined.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Anyone reasonable would have stopped reading your post here my friend. There's no point talking with people who think that a solitary ork boy is equal, let alone superior, to a space marine.

In 3rd edition (and most of 4th) an Ork Boy could regularly overpower a Marine in combat.

Also Space Marine the video game is a fairly lousy source, and the player character is a Captain, not your run-of-the-mill Tac Marine. In addition, I rather doubt Space Marines actually heal wounds by slaying opponents in close combat . . .

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
They have multiple large empires across the galaxy, have wiped out or almost wiped out multiple chapters, including big shots like the crimson fists and imperial fists, killed a primarch and directly attacked terra.

...which Primarch? Only 4.5 named Primarchs are conclusively/definitively dead, to my knowledge, all either during or shortly after the HH (Ferrus Manus, Alpharius (or Omegon, I lose track), Sanguinius, Horus, Konrad Curze).

Everyone else is either a Daemon Primarch or "passed into myth and legend", though Rogal Dorn does seem to have lost a hand along the way.

Yep, it is as a_typical_hero said. To be fair though, it was one of those scenes where two combatants tumble down a bottomless chasm with only one emerging and the other one disappearing to never be seen again.

Considering the "no one killed off-screen is actually dead"-trope, there is a good chance that GW might have him pop up again anyways with some BS reason why one of the most adamant defenders of humanity didn't bother helping them for multiple centuries.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
They have multiple large empires across the galaxy, have wiped out or almost wiped out multiple chapters, including big shots like the crimson fists and imperial fists, killed a primarch and directly attacked terra.

...which Primarch? Only 4.5 named Primarchs are conclusively/definitively dead, to my knowledge, all either during or shortly after the HH (Ferrus Manus, Alpharius (or Omegon, I lose track), Sanguinius, Horus, Konrad Curze).

Everyone else is either a Daemon Primarch or "passed into myth and legend", though Rogal Dorn does seem to have lost a hand along the way.

Yep, it is as a_typical_hero said. To be fair though, it was one of those scenes where two combatants tumble down a bottomless chasm with only one emerging and the other one disappearing to never be seen again.

Considering the "no one killed off-screen is actually dead"-trope, there is a good chance that GW might have him pop up again anyways with some BS reason why one of the most adamant defenders of humanity didn't bother helping them for multiple centuries.

it's also Vulkan, death doesn't take with him

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have a weirder take on this in that I think any army that doesn't work the way it does in the fluff is 'sub-par'. So, for example, during the time when Nidzilla was dominant, I would consider them a 'sub-par' army despite their inherent power because they weren't acting the way 'Nids act in the fluff. That Codex was written cynically to sell a new Carnifex kit, and the rules reflected that through and through.

So if you army is powerful, but in order to make it powerful it has to look nothing like the way that army operates in fluff and artwork, then your army is sub-par because it doesn't function the way it should.

I realise that seems to put me at odds with scotsman, whose Grot army would fall under the heading of 'an army non-representative of the fluff' in that it's all Grots, but I would argue that:

1. From what he's said, he's using a lot of 'Counts As', so he has Stormboyz and Beastbosses or whatever, but with different models.
2. They did work prior to the new book, where GW made some really strange decisions regarding the Orks (reducing their shooting mobility... which makes zero sense).
3. The morale system us utterly fething broken, but it hits Orks (and grot units like Kanz and Guns) really hard.

 Gert wrote:
It wouldn't work with 40k.

I completely agree with this statement.

On a game this scale you can't just up and tell people "Sorry! Your army is a joke army. You're going to lose pretty much all the time, but remember to always have fun and forge that narrative!". No. That doesn't work.

Nah, it doesn't. Codex: Orks is intended to let you run armies of Orks, I get that, my grot army is based on the gorkamorka gretchin revolooshunary kommittee fluff which I love, and so I built it with generous counts-as to run it as that and I get that.

You actually could make a joke army that's aim is to have fun and forge the narrative, it'd be fairly easy tbh. Maybe not 'you're going to lose all the time' but 'you're going to die all the time' definitely works and, honestly, probably allows you to play what feels like a 'horde' army much much better than what 40k does right now.

Give armies a 'horde allowance' that allows them to bring back a (relatively small) number of units with a particular keyword per turn (which incentivizes you to bring them in big, maximum-sized units and to play them aggressively to ensure they get killed and recycled). Tie the horde allowance number to some particular models - let's say Warbosses and Runtherds to let you bring back boyz and gretchin mobs respectively, Tervigons and Tyrants to bring back 'Gant mobs, Patriarchs and Primuses to bring back Neophytes, Dark Apostles to bring back Cultists, Commissars to bring back Conscripts, heralds to bring back the troop Daemons.

Then give those units some kind of special action you can use to insta-splat the unit to keep your opponent from being able to strategically not kill 1-2 guys and prevent the resurrection from working.

That helps to solve the problem of

-hordes just getting to win by default because they fething cover the entire board all at once and you can't do anything
-hordes requiring someone to buy 1,234,521 models just to play
-hordes getting utterly screwed by blast and morale and coherency and various other mechanics that make you ask why you'd ever field more than a min size unit
-hordes needing to reach a point of parity with elites to feel effective, which makes them not feel like cheap chaff (see conscripts in 8th)

units in AOS resurrect all the time, it's honestly the go-to mechanic it seems like to convey a super light super expendable infantry unit, I have no idea why gw is so committed to the mechanic not existing in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

except space marines are not superior to ork boys

Anyone reasonable would have stopped reading your post here my friend. There's no point talking with people who think that a solitary ork boy is equal, let alone superior, to a space marine. Just look at how you preclude your assertion by trying to ignore a piece of lore that effortlessly disproves your assertion (namely three marines killing orks by the score in Space Marine). That lore doesn't count but yours does? Stop being biased and bluntly get over your marine envy my friend.

But sure, if you want an actual example, Saul Tarvitz outright states that the majority of the time a marine will kill an ork one on one, but ork strength is so variable that it depends.

Boys are mass-produced cannon fodder my friend. They're tougher and stronger than the mass-produced cannon fodder of some armies but that's still what they are.

boy, if only the lore for this universe came with some kind of system of statistics, letting us know what the physical capabilities of the various combatants talked about in the lore realistically would be, so we can run these 'who would win' scenarios - oh look! It does!

Looks like in terms of base stats, a naked weaponless marine has a 44% chance of outright killing an ork with his initial attack, while the ork has a 66% chance of hurting the marine but thanks to the marine's redundant organs and such the ork is basically never going to be able to deal a decisive deathblow. Things aren't all rosy for the marine though, because he's going to have a harder time scoring that one-shot kill after his initial attack and the ork becomes more and more likely to be able to wear the marine down as the fight goes on. Which makes sense, in-universe - a marine isnt going to try and armwrestle an ork into submission, he's probably got some special technique to try and jump over his reach and get behind him to snap his neck or break his back in one go rather than relying on their roughly equivalent brute strength.

Anatomically, orks have all the advantages physically that the other semi-upright apes have over us, while marines are still shaped generally like humans albeit super-jacked mega-bodybuilders. But they are built upright like we are, which loses you a ton of mechanical advantage, and physically Orks just have bigger arms, bigger torsos, bigger jaws and lower centers of gravity. Old-timey traveling carnivals back when people didn't use to give a gak about animal welfare would often do a show where they'd challenge whoever the biggest strongest looking person in the town was to come into the ring and fight a chimpanzee, and they'd take bets between this little waist-height monkey and usually this pretty strapping young farmhand, usually after the chimp had just gotten finished with a goofy clown routine. The amount of extra power you get from having your limbs and back shaped like an ape is absolutely tremendous - after all, this is an animal that can pretty lazily lift its entire body mass up into a tree with any one of its four limbs - and the chimp would basically always win the fight.

As it has always been, the marine's superior equipment (power armor) is what provides the great majority of his edge over the ork boy. A shoota is inferior to a bolter at anything but the most extreme close range (and even then the bolter is slightly better) but the ork's brute strength makes a choppa and a chainsword roughly equivalent.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
The game has become too tournament focused for that. Back in the old days Orks were really flavorful to play......but also very very random, playing Orks was more about having fun and wondering what wonderfully crazy thing they were going to do....they could be super powerful.....but you just couldn't really count on anything. It didnt work well at all if you wanted to count on a win, but you could always count on having a fun and colorful game. If your mad boys ever actually did anything constructive....it was like getting a victory anyway. If Orks could get spectacle points in stead of victory points....or maybe when one of the really rare hilarious things happened ig gave some kind of army wide bonus....I don't know. I think there was a way to make that army work.....but instead GW just went lazy and pretty much made them just work like every other army because that is easier.

Correct assessment. Same goes for the WHFB version. A bunch of green, aggressive goofs romping around the battlefield was a delight to play. Even Chaos Dreadnoughts were unhinged back in the day and would either follow commands or blow up your own troops. Good fun! Sadly they have nowadays sucked all joy out of the armies.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

except space marines are not superior to ork boys

Anyone reasonable would have stopped reading your post here my friend. There's no point talking with people who think that a solitary ork boy is equal, let alone superior, to a space marine. Just look at how you preclude your assertion by trying to ignore a piece of lore that effortlessly disproves your assertion (namely three marines killing orks by the score in Space Marine). That lore doesn't count but yours does? Stop being biased and bluntly get over your marine envy my friend.

But sure, if you want an actual example, Saul Tarvitz outright states that the majority of the time a marine will kill an ork one on one, but ork strength is so variable that it depends.

Boys are mass-produced cannon fodder my friend. They're tougher and stronger than the mass-produced cannon fodder of some armies but that's still what they are.

There are many references in the horus heresey novels to orks, there is definatly variance in thier power. an ork boy in a large waagh might be able to krump a nob on a small planet of feral orks just developing. Those smallerweaker developing ork societies are more along the lines of things you will unlikely see on the 40k tabletop though, if the made some planetary defense game of hive city defense thing you might. hack a imperial guardsman might be able to take a youngling boy hand to hand (but no need as a lasgun would do the work from afar so why risk it) when we are talkign orks landing rocks (literally rocks, they shoot and put engines on asteroids and crash them into planets while aboard) on planets to invade though we have reached waagh territory. (source see the Armageddon series, war of the beast, Gulliman Lord of Ultrimar, and references to Ullanor etc). Humans shoudl be very glad that the orks find it rather unorky to wear armor (except meganobz because they are blessed by gork and mork ... also they carry a big power claw and an krump ya , source 4th edition ork codex on ork kultur)

In power armor and with a bolter and chansword a space marine can place shots that will take out plenty of orks, not arguing that at all. a space marines armor will also ignore a lot of the poorly placed ork shots. The issue i have is the space marine vs the kind of boy that GW is portraying on the tabletop in close combat (the part you cut out of the quote) being equal to a marine in power armor. the marine might be saved by said armor or may be able to prevail without being hit but its not a case of one being clearly superior to the other more along the lines of one genetically modified human in power armor vs a genetically created super warrior created by the gods in a tshirt who is tough enough that when you cut off their head a paindoc might get there in time to sew it back on and get them back in the fight.

On using space marine as a source btw that is not a GW product, it is Relic Games product published by THQ under a license to use the IP by GW. It is a fun game (have played through it several times) but not representative of relative power levels of units. GW sells a license to use their IP but what follows is not considered canon to the universe until and if GW decides to make an exemption (see dawn of war and the blood ravens references). The irony here is me pointing out that the space marine video game is all most imperial players can reference and the responce being "in the space marine game look what 3 marines can do" should not be lost here. Unless you think when a space marine does an impressive kill they spontaniously regenerate lost wounds/close up slugga wounds, and their ceramite somehow heals with the impressive finishing move then its just game mechanics and using the orks as a foil and chaff to fit a story, which is fine for a video game, just not canon (I must have missed reading about that in the novels and codexes including space marines as i have a rather large marine army with multiple chapters)

Of note I do actually like space marines, i have several space marine armies, blood angels at this point probably 5-6k points, probably 10k or more ultramarines, dark angels another 3-4k and some space wolf and iron hands models mixed in there. I also have a large ork army and I enjoy reading the novels and codexes to both (mostly listening to the audiobooks while painting and modeling) Most book references to orks show the best way t deal with them is from afar with ordinance becuase they are often not subtle and artilary / orbital bombarrdment is a greta option, but once they are in choppa range its usually a loss or a very costly victory.

But spontanous regeneration isn't something unheard for space marines. Anval Thawn for example was able to fully regenerate from wounds that were mortal to space marines many times over. To a point where he was able to even return from the state where the apothecaries declared him for dead, and he was sloted for enthronemend in the vaults on Titan. In general anyone who can be blessed with a vision of the light of the astronomicon can performed such feats. Don't even have to be a marine.

The Crimson Fist cpt Cortez was able to regenerate a severed spine in mid battle. And some of the 13th founding marines are able to both shrug off and function with damage far extending over that what regular marines can survive. And regular marines can survive and function with rib cage open, half head blown off, primary heart punctured in multiple places. Haggar was able to fight and travel long distance refusing help from others, while his insides were turned in to litteral mush and his liver having fist sized holes in it from a psychic attack.

Karol wrote:
But spontanous regeneration isn't something unheard for space marines. Anval Thawn for example was able to fully regenerate from wounds that were mortal to space marines many times over. To a point where he was able to even return from the state where the apothecaries declared him for dead, and he was sloted for enthronemend in the vaults on Titan. In general anyone who can be blessed with a vision of the light of the astronomicon can performed such feats. Don't even have to be a marine.

The Crimson Fist cpt Cortez was able to regenerate a severed spine in mid battle. And some of the 13th founding marines are able to both shrug off and function with damage far extending over that what regular marines can survive. And regular marines can survive and function with rib cage open, half head blown off, primary heart punctured in multiple places. Haggar was able to fight and travel long distance refusing help from others, while his insides were turned in to litteral mush and his liver having fist sized holes in it from a psychic attack.

It is strongly implied that Anval Thawn is a perpetual, or at least a space marine equivalent of a saint. And yes tehre are cases where marines, often through thier faith in the emperor do recover or fight through things that should have killed them. That said it is often implied that faith in the emperor saved them, IE much liek a saint we have the warp entity that may or may not be the emperor funneling power into them.

Also I am not implying that a space marine captain or even Veteran of many campaigns is going to struggle one V one against an ork boy. I are talking space marine tactical or interceptor equivalent who has not had hundred or thousands of year experience where their faith and developed skills are able to bring them to another level vs the type of ork who would be part of a waagh invading a planet. Also of note these types of injuries being survived in a space marine is not particularly common whereas with orks its more a case of if the doc gets there fast enough to patch them up (and is in the right mood to not experiment on them if they do not have enough teef to pay.. or even if they do they might choose questionable upgrades like a squigg brain transplant)

Put another way not sure how much you know about US special forces but we'll use the most commonly known one, the Navy Seal. now compare thier "stats" to a normal Army Infantryman and its going to be similar. but one has experience, training and ability beyond the other one (also better equipment but even without that I am fairly certain all the extra training to sort out only the best and hone said skills is going to put the seal well ahead)

I have to say it feels wrong to imagine ork boyz being superior even in meele 1vs1 agaisnt a marine when normal ork boyz are the size of a human even if double the wide.

I mean, meele wise, Orks boyz and Kroot are equivalent going by fluff (Actually Kroot are slender and more fragile than boyz but stronger because their muscle mass is much more dense), and I doubt anyone would put a Kroot at the same level as a space marine, even naked.

THAT doesnt mean a ork boy cannot kill a marine in meele, thats not how stuff works. Battlefields are chaotic and combats are not a 100% sure thing. If a gretchin shots a sleeping Roboute Guilliman in the head with a pistol it would kill him.

But it would pretty dire if you make an super elite and expensive advanced soldier that most of the time is specialliced in meele combat that cannot win agaisnt a fething fungus that grows in 2 months, specially when in great wars, Imperial Guards would carry the burden of facing the ork hordes and space marines would be deployed in the most important parts. If tacticals cannot fight in fluff agaisnt boyz when things reach meele, how would fight any meele based space marine chapter agaisnt orks? Not even nobles or warbossess.

In most fluff, Space Marines are superior to ork boyz by a wide margin in literally every aspect. But a couple ork boyz ganging agaisnt a space marine could very easely kill it of he becomes issolated. And 3-4 ork boyz are much "cheaper" logistical wise than a space marine.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Nah, it doesn't.

I genuinely don't know which part of my post this statement refers to. You quoted the entire thing, so it could apply to any statement I made, varying in meaning quite considerably.

 Galas wrote:
I have to say it feels wrong to imagine ork boyz being superior even in meele 1vs1 agaisnt a marine when normal ork boyz are the size of a human even if double the wide.

I mean, meele wise, Orks boyz and Kroot are equivalent going by fluff (Actually Kroot are slender and more fragile than boyz but stronger because their muscle mass is much more dense), and I doubt anyone would put a Kroot at the same level as a space marine, even naked.

Almost like making something taller doesn't generally make it better at fighting hand-to-hand. There's a reason when you tackle someone in american football you want to get underneath them, and what's known as a 'wrestler's build' is short with long arms.

THAT doesnt mean a ork boy cannot kill a marine in meele, thats not how stuff works. Battlefields are chaotic and combats are not a 100% sure thing. If a gretchin shots a sleeping Roboute Guilliman in the head with a pistol it would kill him.

But it would pretty dire if you make an super elite and expensive advanced soldier that most of the time is specialliced in meele combat that cannot win agaisnt a fething fungus that grows in 2 months, specially when in great wars, Imperial Guards would carry the burden of facing the ork hordes and space marines would be deployed in the most important parts. If tacticals cannot fight in fluff agaisnt boyz when things reach meele, how would fight any meele based space marine chapter agaisnt orks? Not even nobles or warbossess.

Right, they're 'specialized in melee' which is why most space marines are armed with primarily melee equip-wait, no, that's not right, i remember something about 'boltguns'....

In most fluff, Space Marines are superior to ork boyz by a wide margin in literally every aspect. But a couple ork boyz ganging agaisnt a space marine could very easely kill it of he becomes issolated. And 3-4 ork boyz are much "cheaper" logistical wise than a space marine.

Yeah it's almost like 'humanity is in deep gak' is kind of "the theme of 40k" and theyre supposedly facing a whole bunch of crazy superhuman intergalactic space horrors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Nah, it doesn't.

I genuinely don't know which part of my post this statement refers to. You quoted the entire thing, so it could apply to any statement I made, varying in meaning quite considerably.

sorry - nah it doesn't "put you in conflict with me". I'm fully aware that the desired army style that I want to pursue is something gw has been actively discouraging for many many editions, which is why I have a tendency to purposefully use my proxy units as the more competitive elements within the codex to offset what I know will be woefully underpowered units like grots killa kanz and grot tanks.

my mangler squig used to be a barebones Bonebreaka with the forktress upgrade, my squigs used to be a 30-block of boyz with the mushroom shaman from gobbapalooza as a da jump/warpath warpehead, and I used to have a whole bunch of big gunz proxying as mek gunz to give the list teeth.

Now, the mangler squig is gonna be a squigboss, the squigs are gonna be beastboyz, I dont think I can *quite* get away with boingrot bounderz being squighog boyz because of the massive size difference which makes the stats feel pretty silly, so they'll stay Stormboyz and the Fanatics are now going to be kommandos with a snot pump wagon as a klaw nob.

The whole point of having flexible units and flexible subfactions that I dont commit to is so I can try to bring competitive units to compensate for how bad I know the core of my army is going to be.

Running the numbers, a Tac Marine without gear has a 39.51% chance of doing a wound to an Ork on the charge. Each turn after that, it's down to a 22.22% chance.

An Ork Boy without gear has a 55.56% chance of doing at least one wound, and an 11.11% chance of doing two in a single fight.

If we assume they strike simultaneously, that means you're looking at...

Round One
39.51% chance of Ork Death
11.11% chance of Marine Death

Round Two
52.95% chance of Ork Death
40.74% chance of Marine Death

Round Three
63.40% chance of Ork Death
64.88% chance of Marine Death

So it's really only round one where the Marine has a significant advantage, due to having two wounds.

Kind of cool how math works out to display the fluff perfectly.

Marines shoot until the orks get close enough, then switch to combat and try to land a decisive strike. In many situations, this will leave the marines victorious. However, if they fail to kill the orks or there are too many of them, it's a brawl where marines die just as easy as orks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Kind of cool how math works out to display the fluff perfectly.

Marines shoot until the orks get close enough, then switch to combat and try to land a decisive strike. In many situations, this will leave the marines victorious. However, if they fail to kill the orks or there are too many of them, it's a brawl where marines die just as easy as orks.

Well, this was without any gear-including armor.

That's a HUGE advantage Marines have over Orks-they have good armor, whereas Orks do not. But yeah, in my opinion, a naked Ork Boy should be a match for a naked Marine.

 Galas wrote:
I have to say it feels wrong to imagine ork boyz being superior even in meele 1vs1 agaisnt a marine when normal ork boyz are the size of a human even if double the wide.

I mean, meele wise, Orks boyz and Kroot are equivalent going by fluff (Actually Kroot are slender and more fragile than boyz but stronger because their muscle mass is much more dense), and I doubt anyone would put a Kroot at the same level as a space marine, even naked.

THAT doesnt mean a ork boy cannot kill a marine in meele, thats not how stuff works. Battlefields are chaotic and combats are not a 100% sure thing. If a gretchin shots a sleeping Roboute Guilliman in the head with a pistol it would kill him.

But it would pretty dire if you make an super elite and expensive advanced soldier that most of the time is specialliced in meele combat that cannot win agaisnt a fething fungus that grows in 2 months, specially when in great wars, Imperial Guards would carry the burden of facing the ork hordes and space marines would be deployed in the most important parts. If tacticals cannot fight in fluff agaisnt boyz when things reach meele, how would fight any meele based space marine chapter agaisnt orks? Not even nobles or warbossess.

In most fluff, Space Marines are superior to ork boyz by a wide margin in literally every aspect. But a couple ork boyz ganging agaisnt a space marine could very easely kill it of he becomes issolated. And 3-4 ork boyz are much "cheaper" logistical wise than a space marine.

i welcome sourced data, but according to multiple ork codexes, and the book xenology the typical ork boy is over 2-2.5 meters tall, in freedom units (the inferior system by far) this translates to over 6 and a half feet to 8 feet. Also of note that is as the ork stands very slouched and with more a gorilla build than a human one so hunched and stocky.

There are certain human cultures in the 41st melinum that do attain this height. In the primarchs Alpharius head of the hydra (one of the best 40k books to dat btw, highly recommend) it is noted that alpharius and his marines are on a world where the populice is abnormally tall and so they can without armor pass for members of the not yet imperial society as well built but not abnormal height citizens I would need the book at hand but i recall it saying 2.5 meters tall. different authors have varied the sized but it is noted this is an abnormal size for humans due to the planets makeup so it would seem that an average ork would actually be tallet than a human (models also show this), and larger waagh boys would be closer to the size of a space marine out of power armor.

as for space marines vs orks in combat scenes, again see war of the beast, roboute gulliman : lord of ultrimar, Armageddon series, and references to Ullanor in heresey novels. they have no problem dealing with orks in mass at range. a well placed bolter shell or 3 does the job to at least incapacitate and disable an ork. once its metal to metal though that is nto the case.

Also of note you don't seem to have a good grasp of ork maturity. an ork boy is not ready to fight in 2 months. They seem to, from the very few mentions in books featuring the lifecycle to take 7-9 ish years after being born from spores (hatched or blossomed depending how you look at it) younglings living a feral lifestyle of hunting and trying to just survive based on thier preprogramed genetics to be ready to join an ork tribe. Faster development than a human for sure but orks are not Tyranid fast (of note this is probably one of the scariest thing abotu Tyranids). There is a reason it takes around 50 years from a world putting down an ork invasion before the orks are back to a ork society ready to take to the stars again. Also of note the genetic preprogramming is significant. with a human or even a space marine a lot of their training is done over years, the ork does not have years of training but they have genetic (memories might not be the word but maybe programing?) knowledge of how to fight as if they were. As an example a Mek did not go to school or study under another mek, they just know how to make trukks, battlewagons, and if called upon and given the resources even Stompas. a youngling mek might be trading thier services making crude but servicable choppas and slug throwers in exchange for scrap to make more and food.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Kind of cool how math works out to display the fluff perfectly.

Marines shoot until the orks get close enough, then switch to combat and try to land a decisive strike. In many situations, this will leave the marines victorious. However, if they fail to kill the orks or there are too many of them, it's a brawl where marines die just as easy as orks.

Well, this was without any gear-including armor.

That's a HUGE advantage Marines have over Orks-they have good armor, whereas Orks do not. But yeah, in my opinion, a naked Ork Boy should be a match for a naked Marine.

I'm fairly sure there are multiple arenas scattered across various factions where this theory is put to a test

 the_scotsman wrote:
sorry - nah it doesn't "put you in conflict with me". I'm fully aware that the desired army style that I want to pursue is something gw has been actively discouraging for many many editions, which is why I have a tendency to purposefully use my proxy units as the more competitive elements within the codex to offset what I know will be woefully underpowered units like grots killa kanz and grot tanks.

It sounds cool. I'm sure opponent's get a kick out of seeing all Grot armies. Do you have The Red Gobbo in there some where?

 the_scotsman wrote:
my mangler squig used to be a barebones Bonebreaka with the forktress upgrade, my squigs used to be a 30-block of boyz with the mushroom shaman from gobbapalooza as a da jump/warpath warpehead, and I used to have a whole bunch of big gunz proxying as mek gunz to give the list teeth.

I always wanted to do a Tyranid army using Guard minis. Guardsmen running forward with twin daggers as Hormagaunts, various converted Sentinels as the big bugs. Things like that. Doubt it would ever work, but it sounds fun.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Now, the mangler squig is gonna be a squigboss, the squigs are gonna be beastboyz, I dont think I can *quite* get away with boingrot bounderz being squighog boyz because of the massive size difference which makes the stats feel pretty silly, so they'll stay Stormboyz and the Fanatics are now going to be kommandos with a snot pump wagon as a klaw nob.

At least you've found a lot of workable 'counts as' solutions.

 the_scotsman wrote:
The whole point of having flexible units and flexible subfactions that I dont commit to is so I can try to bring competitive units to compensate for how bad I know the core of my army is going to be.

I took the opposite tack with my Primaris army.

When I eventually got a Primaris force I decided that I didn't just want more Ultramarines, and didn't want to mix them with my Deathwatch. I could have them be whatever I want them to be, but in the end I chose White Scars for the same reason I chose Red Corsairs for my Chaos: Advance and charge is really easy to remember.