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So each individual "society" within the leagues has a super computer at its center making all its decisions but each is starting to go haywire.

I wonder if these things are related to the men of iron or the older men of stone.

I could see an overarching story point being the leagues efforts to find more data or new cores entirely.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
So, gw just dropped a little lore teaser :

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/22/the-leagues-of-votann-are-coming-but-what-actually-is-a-votann/


Some interesting tibits in their

See now that has me more excited than before. That artwork looks awesome and it really nails "Dwarves in Spaaaaaceee".

More importantly, sounds like they have AI in their midst. Which is bad ass.

I don't think it will be ubiquitous AI everywhere. Sounds more like the old science fiction trope of the gigantic supercomputer that one asks for answers like supplicating an oracle. If it takes decades or centuries to get an answer, I don't see them asking the Ancestor Core for anything other than the most important questions. Maybe they are aware too that the more they ask, the faster the degeneration.

Leagues of Votann M41

*yes I stole this joke, no I am not sorry*

In b4 the votann replies with 42

Maybe the degeneration for at least one core is because somebody long ago asked them the Last Question or to calculate out pi, and all these thousands of years it has been working on the task, using up more and more resources causing its slowdown.

Nah, the computers are actually just running with a bazillion tabs open on Chrome because the old dwarves keep telling the young ones to not close any of the tabs because they're working on stuff. Generations of never closing tabs has resulted in a total mess, plus some dunce also left a minecraft server running with unlimited chunk render and nobody has tabbed back in yet to shut it down.

Gert wrote:Leagues of Votann M41

Spoiler:

*yes I stole this joke, no I am not sorry*

That was my first thought to.

Iracundus wrote:
I don't think it will be ubiquitous AI everywhere. Sounds more like the old science fiction trope of the gigantic supercomputer that one asks for answers like supplicating an oracle. If it takes decades or centuries to get an answer, I don't see them asking the Ancestor Core for anything other than the most important questions. Maybe they are aware too that the more they ask, the faster the degeneration.

I mean I don't think that either? It seems like there's one ancestoputer in each League that they revere.

Apologies again for my frankly lack lustre efforts at sharing the info from Ork & Squat Warlords.

I’m in the middle of a house move, and working from home so sadly I’ve been distracted.

Hopefully I can do some more tomorrow. I’ll likely copy/pasta the Living Ancestor stuff post as there’s a bit more to come on that particular entry.

so, the necromunda reveals yesterday had a bunch of squat pioneers. Of note for this thread, these squads are explictly NOT Kin of the Leagues of Voltann, but a seperate squat linage that is settled on Necromunda.

exact wording:

Yes, they’re called Squats – the only ones in the galaxy who still use the name (that we know of). They are distant relatives to the Leagues of Votann – descendants of the explorers who left the home worlds and settled on Necromunda. While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin

SO, this opens up several possibilities, including that the Diemburg are in fact also squats of a seperate lineage al la the craftword/dark eldar. it also allows for imperial squats to be a future option in a future Imperial Guard codex.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, the necromunda reveals yesterday had a bunch of squat pioneers. Of note for this thread, these squads are explictly NOT Kin of the Leagues of Voltann, but a seperate squat linage that is settled on Necromunda.

exact wording:

Yes, they’re called Squats – the only ones in the galaxy who still use the name (that we know of). They are distant relatives to the Leagues of Votann – descendants of the explorers who left the home worlds and settled on Necromunda. While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin

SO, this opens up several possibilities, including that the Diemburg are in fact also squats of a seperate lineage al la the craftword/dark eldar. it also allows for imperial squats to be a future option in a future Imperial Guard codex.

It also suggests that the “squats” were eaten by the nids, this will be proper lore, and the the LOV were a totally different group of the same species that were not part of that oblivion.

In the original fluff their were many leagues, maybe only the votann one survives and squats and the rest are a divergence from now defunct leagues?

Had a quick scan, couldn't see one thing I'm sure I remember; a squat was not allowed to join one of the Brotherhoods until he had raised two sons to adulthood (about 60, 70 iirc).

Andykp wrote:
In the original fluff their were many leagues, maybe only the votann one survives and squats and the rest are a divergence from now defunct leagues?

nah, they keep referring to them as the LEAGUES of Voltann, plural. I believe that "league" will be their subfaction title, and each league is based around an ancestor core.

though that doesnt stop the squats on necromunda form being refugees form a destroyed league, of course. possibly even a league whoose homeworld was eaten by the nids.

mrFickle wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, the necromunda reveals yesterday had a bunch of squat pioneers. Of note for this thread, these squads are explictly NOT Kin of the Leagues of Voltann, but a seperate squat linage that is settled on Necromunda.

exact wording:

Yes, they’re called Squats – the only ones in the galaxy who still use the name (that we know of). They are distant relatives to the Leagues of Votann – descendants of the explorers who left the home worlds and settled on Necromunda. While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin

SO, this opens up several possibilities, including that the Diemburg are in fact also squats of a seperate lineage al la the craftword/dark eldar. it also allows for imperial squats to be a future option in a future Imperial Guard codex.

It also suggests that the “squats” were eaten by the nids, this will be proper lore, and the the LOV were a totally different group of the same species that were not part of that oblivion.

I’m not sure that really follows from what I’ve seen?

I see it more as galactic migration. Consider London, where I currently am. It’s wonderfully multicultural, with folk and communities from every corner of the world. 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation descendants meld their historical culture with British culture. Yes they may well be bilingual, or at least conversational in their ancestral tongue - but even then, they’d stick out as Similar, But Other when visiting their parents/grandparents/great grandparents country of origin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sod it, I can use myself as a peculiar example.

I’m Scottish by Birth and Heritage. Born and raised in Edinburgh to the age of 11, when we moved to South East England.

I’ve now been in England coming up 31 years. Culturally? I’m….not entirely sure how to define myself. I do consider myself largely Scottish, and certainly not English. British doesn’t quite cover it. This uncertainty comes from my already somewhat romanticised view of “Home”. And whilst I’ve still a noticeably Scottish accent, it’s not terribly Scottish, and people can struggle to place it unless I’m talking very fast, or I’ve been drinking or talking to another Scot. Almost the “Scots think I’m English, English think I’m Irish” type stuff.

If I’d had kids, they’d know about their Scots roots, because of course they would. But would they truly be Scottish? I say no. British sure, English by definition. But not Scottish, because it’s more than just your blood, it’s the culture and folk you’re brought up around and their collective outlook on life, informed by previous generations.

Squats on Necromunda could be akin to the US thing (which seems weird to me, but to each their own) of “my great grandad was X therefore I am X too”. Absolutely certain of it, but looked askance by people who happen to be X by birth.

I’m aware this is close to “No True Scotsman”. But it’s not meant to be!

Tragically missed opportunity to use “no true squatsman” there.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Tragically missed opportunity to use “no true squatsman” there.

No! Bad Mr_Rose! Dirty Mr_Rose! In your bed, on your rug!

Dirty boy!

I think you'd probably be right (in my head cannon at least), I could kind of imagine them as a sort of jewish community, where there's a lot of organization and celebration of their survival as a people, but maybe some deeper differences within that circle, where they have very different views regarding the emperor. (like; was their AI-core's last command to serve the emperor, worship the emperor, or seek to use the emperor until they could reestablish, etc)

My only thought is that maybe they'd be just a little too much genetic difference between a squat and a human whereby maybe they can't breed, or breeding is rare, or the offspring are infertile like mules, which leads to a lack of cross-pollination and stronger them/us divides.
(off topic: Honestly I've often half thought they should do similar with the eldar, they're a bit too human for something outside of star-trek to not be a strain of humanity, and I get there's explanations for that but it feels like 40k could have applied occam's razor and just had the imperium, dwarves and elves share roots, with the eldar diverging a little more so.)

The Demiurg personally always seemed to be xenos, I'll be maybe a little disappointed if that's no longer the case, as it kind of fills in more of the universe with human faces rather than alien ones, but then I guess GW would be hard to persuade into doing another xenos faction, even if it was a sub-faction of Tau. Best case for me might be if they were a species of mutants with a less human appearance.

Looks like the Leagues are also a cloned people. Not clones as in clones of each other or of a specific genetic template, but as in each individual is tailor made from a cloneskein (which looks like some kind of mutable template) and is more heavily GMO'd than the vegetables at the grocery store:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/10/the-lore-of-the-leagues-who-are-the-kin-and-where-do-they-come-from/

I rather like that. Eugenics by way of selective cloning.

Ok, so as someone who is quite possible the same age as Grotsnik (I know, I know I'm probably older), i gotta say, I really like the new approach. After all, being honest about it, It really was only the epic system in which squats were popular (due to their really really cool superheavies and gyrocopters).

When the GSC came out I thought "OOOOHHH, someones read an actual copy of "Heavy Metal"!!!, [even though its in french] BUT.. these new squats are very much what we in the early 80's thought sci-fi was gonna be.

Conclusion...GW finally decided they've had enough of ripping off the younger generation and is now going full on "aim at the Douglas Addams generation".

I like the new background, I like the new aesthetic.

I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.

More important, there’s the inherent implication that other Abhumans were, ahem, Intelligent Design to better suit colonists to planets.

The further implication is therefore the ancestors of the Felinids were just Space Weebs, possibly exiled from Earth for being a bit weird.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
More important, there’s the inherent implication that other Abhumans were, ahem, Intelligent Design to better suit colonists to planets.

The further implication is therefore the ancestors of the Felinids were just Space Weebs, possibly exiled from Earth for being a bit weird.

Not to mention that it lines up very much with what Abnett implied about Fenris, plus some of the weird and wonderful human civilisations encountered in the HH series.

mrFickle wrote:
I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.

A true Imperial would probably argue that the Kin are no longer human. But I agree with your point. The existence and life of humans on alternative paths, such as those that now follow the Greater Good of the Tau (several generations now since the Damocles Crusade), or the Kin, show that there were/are other paths to survival beyond just the Emperor's way. Different ways, with some tradeoffs perhaps (such as humans being junior partner or subservient to the Tau), whereas it seemed the Emperor wanted to have it all: a dominant humanity that had immense psychic power with none of the downsides.

mrFickle wrote:
I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.

Interesting point. But allow me to offer a soft counter if I may.

Whatever they did during The Long Night, since the Great Crusade kicked the ever loving snot out of multiple Xenos and other horrors, and The Imperium came to act as a lodestone of Xenos and Chaotic aggression, folk such as the Leagues of Votann have benefitted, at least second hand, from The Emperor’s plan, botched as it was.

Consider Ullanor, and what that meant for Orks. From what we’re told that was a Waaaagh! of, well, critical mass. Colossal Orks on a rampage, pretty much wiped out to the point there’s an argument we’re it not for the Heresy, Orks could’ve been largely prevented ever gathering in large numbers ever again.

I \lke the new look.

BUT!! What i like more is that we heve NEW stuff to talk about!!

THE only time i remember being this excited about 40k background, was when Dark Eldar turned into Drukhari!! Its great!!! (I'm not a cartoon tiger)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.

Interesting point. But allow me to offer a soft counter if I may.

Whatever they did during The Long Night, since the Great Crusade kicked the ever loving snot out of multiple Xenos and other horrors, and The Imperium came to act as a lodestone of Xenos and Chaotic aggression, folk such as the Leagues of Votann have benefitted, at least second hand, from The Emperor’s plan, botched as it was.

Consider Ullanor, and what that meant for Orks. From what we’re told that was a Waaaagh! of, well, critical mass. Colossal Orks on a rampage, pretty much wiped out to the point there’s an argument we’re it not for the Heresy, Orks could’ve been largely prevented ever gathering in large numbers ever again.

Good argument but the imperium went on an agressive campaign to eliminate or subjugate all xenos in the galaxy, regardless of wether or not they actually posed a threat. Many human civilisations were destroyed because they would not comply and the megarachnids, for example, weren’t going to hurt anyone but they were attacked becuase their existence was considered an abomination.

So if there is only war in 41st millennium, it’s becuase the imperium started all the wars. Maybe.

The ork waaaaaaagh might be an exception as Orks seeks out conflict.

But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.

There’s the argument that accepting Imperial Compliance didn’t equate to accepting Mechanicum Compliance - though I guess that is not exactly black and white.

From what we’ve seen there’s at least a suggestion the Leagues are kind of akin to Ultramar, in that they’re an organised coalition of planets and civilisations. Their exact level of internal unity is of course unknown right now.

Had they been discovered during the Great Crusade (and right now we don’t know either way for certain on that count), I think their expertise and tech level would’ve appealed enough for Special Treatment. After all, the Core Worlds are generally said to be super rich in resources, and the Leagues seemingly (presumably?) adept at exploiting and harnessing those resources. So an aggressive, rather than potentially negotiated, compliance might’ve done more harm than good.

Plus, given ongoing reliance on Navigator Houses? I’d strongly argue the option to simply genhance humans to match their League equivalent. Both are of course the result of genhancment in the past, but to be able to make them to order would break the power of the Guild Houses, which may have an appeal unto itself.