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on the forum. Obviously

mrFickle wrote:


But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.

Ask the Eldar about how Chaos isn't a threat to them

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Yeah the Anti-Xenos thing was officially because aliens are a (direct military) threat but it was actually because aliens accept and even revere chaos which means they fuel it which makes them a threat to ultimate victory (over chaos). If they could have been persuaded to drop their millennia old religions and sincerely embrace the Imperial Truth things might have gone otherwise. But probably not because the emperor was kind of an ass and a colossal fool.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/11 11:24:19


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Well, the anti-Xeno is more because aliens cannot be trusted. You can't trust that an alien won't eventually turn on humanity because they're aliens.

It's really just common sense in the 40k setting. Humanity has learned over the last 40k years that aliens are not good. It's been burned into humanity's DNA at this point, just like how you can't trust AI.

The Emperor only ever cared about humanity, and even then only in the general "as a species" sense. Trying to get aliens on-board too was just out of the question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/12 04:18:38


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
mrFickle wrote:


But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.

Ask the Eldar about how Chaos isn't a threat to them


The eldar birthed slaneesh through their own excess and decadence, slaneesh did not corrupt the eldar
   
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mrFickle wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
mrFickle wrote:


But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.

Ask the Eldar about how Chaos isn't a threat to them


The eldar birthed slaneesh through their own excess and decadence, slaneesh did not corrupt the eldar


Feedback loop. As Slaanesh coalesced, it influenced its feeders. As it grew in strength toward ‘birth’, so did the strength of that influence. So the initial excess? Sure. And I’d accept it wasn’t an intentional influence. But I’d strongly argue it did influence their further corruption.

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Warp shenanegans. Once Slaanesh was birthed heshethey had always existed, guaranteeing hishertheir own birth by the fall of the Eldar

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Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas
   
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mrFickle wrote:
Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas


It also suggests they can go to being a psychic race if needs be. Remember, it’s not Psykers that are the problem as such. It’s emerging, untrained Psykers, unaware of their powers, and/or unable/unwilling to control them.

Depending how adept the Leagues are with that tech (the article is vague, but to me suggestive it’s something they can do, but don’t necessarily fully understand), they could examine the genome of successfully trained Sanctioned Psykers to find if there’s some difference between them and the sort of Psyker liable to explode, and if so programme that difference in as well, resulting in, theoretically, naturally more stable and therefore useful/trustworthy Psykers.

God I’m enjoying this. Never happier than when we’ve tidbits of background to speculate on!

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mrFickle wrote:
Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas


It does give them an excuse. You can't be sure that a new alien race won't contribute to chaos in some way, so the only way to be sure is to wipe them out.

Weather this is morally justified is different from it being logical. Anything can be logical depending on your point of view and what you view as important. Anything can be morally justified depending on your morals. The Imperium doesn't consider aliens as having any more rights than animals, and most aliens reciprocate that view. It's nothing different than wiping out mosquitoes because they spread malaria.

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/12 16:51:03


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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dorset

 Grey Templar wrote:

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.


so, mutants, barely worthy of continued existence, then?

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.


so, mutants, barely worthy of continued existence, then?


Ahhh….their background precludes them from being mutants entirely. At least, in rational terms.

In Crusade era terms, they’re genhanced, as were the Astartes, and a great many folk in what was The Imperial Army, to some degree or other.

What is truly delicious to my fluff embedded mind is that we can now argue all Abhumans (stable and unstable) are therefore the result of Genhancement, whether or not they’ve retained the same capacity for genetic tinkering. And by extension, the base template would you and I as modern day pure homosapien Sapien.

Of course we then have the franky mind boggling level of bigotry and ignorance within the Imperium, so all bets are off!

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xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.


so, mutants, barely worthy of continued existence, then?


Yes, but actually no.

Mutants generally refers to humans with unstable mutations. These are worth little more than to be chattel in the mines.

Abhumans are humans with stable mutations that provide advantages. Ogryn are valuable for their strength. Ratlings for their small size, stealth, and overall nimbleness. Squats are similar. A stable and useful branch of humanity. Weather these useful mutations occurred naturally or via deliberate genehancement is irrelevant, only the result matters.

At least that would be the official Imperial stance. Local authorities are free to persecute all mutants the same if they choose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/12 22:04:18


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Just a thought - GW recently described the Kin as "coming out of the Galactic Core" which I think has always been their home world locations. Looking it up on Lexicanum it has high grav/ion storms as well as being rich in minerals and isotopes- which is the established lore. Interesting to me was the note that this region has been greatly effected by the great rift and warp storms making the Imperium doubt anything could survive there [from the Avenging Son novel ].
So obviously its described as previously unmapped and largely unnavigable - so the Leagues could have been well hidden there. The Great Rift could then be what's forced their re-emergence. Perhaps they are going to be space borne after all with the recent art being one of their Stronghold type ships.
Fleeing/relocating would also be a strong driver for conflict with other factions as they see to establish new homelands/territory. Its also a bit of a dwarf -trope of an empire falling to outside forces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/14 11:18:07


 
   
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mrFickle wrote:
Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas


True. They could of course not do that. Results most likely dead humanity though. Unless you get rid of chaos eventually it wipes you.

Of course who says humanity deserves to survive? But wonder wonder emperor(being part of humans) prefers humanity to survive over being wiped out.

But as is it's moot point. Humanity(including squats) lost. It's slow fight to death and all doomed to extinction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 19:11:01


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dorset

so, a tiny tibbet of info here, but in the recent warcom article talking about the necromunda squats mech/walker thing, we have a squat/kin name, specifically "Valya Vartijan, of the Svardhol mining clan". That name, for me at least, has strong Scandinavian vibes, implying a more "Viking" take on the Kin that the now classic "scots/northern english" dwarves of Warhammer fantasy.



link to the orignal article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/16/the-squats-make-battlesuits-out-of-mining-equipment-and-corpses-out-of-other-gangs/

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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So it’s probably a given that we can expect mor walkers for the LOV. Hopefully they are done well.

I’d expect some big hammers somewhere
   
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dorset

New article, on weapons

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/20/lore-of-the-votann-ancient-quasi-divine-machine-intellects-make-for-decent-gunsmiths-it-turns-out/

Of note, they have multiple fully functional STCs, have some ability to progress technologically, and sold ion canon technology to the Tau.


On that latter point, I was under the impression that the it was canon that the tau traded their ion tech off the diemburg. So, confirmation they are a branch of squats? I will get back to you on that.

Also, release is several months away. I'd expect not before September


Edit: 40k wiki confirms that the tau bought the tech off the diemburg. So yes, either that's an official retcon, or the burg are a space based squat line.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 13:27:47


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1500 pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
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They will probably just say that Demiurg = Squats.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg

Honestly, the existing info on Demiurg really looks like they description for the Leagues of Votaan. Almost like they lifted it for the new fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 15:21:47


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Perhaps demiurg are some sort of merchant league or a bit like rogue traders.

What I find interesting is that squats are clearly going to be a heavy hitting army and probably that better level of tech will be the explanation of how they have survived as opposed to the imperiums numbers and brute force.
   
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Demiurge could be a divergent strain of Squats. Those who chose to prospect asteroid belts rather than planets.

Given Cloneskeins, it could help reconcile their not exactly human appearance.



Eyes and skin could be to help handle solar radiation when there’s no handy dandy planetary atmosphere to intercept it.

Concept sketch by Jes Goodwin,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 18:06:43


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I reckon MDG has the right of it. It's not a retcon just a way to tie up loose ends. The Demiurg were a potential squat lite that never gained traction. I like the idea of having some that look more inhuman and that could be allied to the Tau.

I still want more xenos from 40k and I'd like the Demiurg to have remained separate. But now that Squats are coming back it makes sense to fit them back together again.


EDIT: by the way that picture doesn't work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 09:51:17


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Yeah I think the Demiurg definitely look to be an offshoot of the Kin. I think its cool that they seem to have a variety of types of "space dwarf" in the universe, nothings been dropped and each are their own thing. It shapes the Kin as a race as diverse as Eldar, it roots them deeper into the setting. Plus I'm betting they had a range of options mocked up for the return of the squats and while they decided to go with LoV they also decided to do something with the"squat" and Demiurg concepts.
   
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Can’t get the pic to work :(

But I can definitely see Kin Society being restrictive for some. So Demiurg and Necromundan Squats needn’t be as culturally distinct as say, Dark from Craftworld Eldar.

If we’re right, and we’re seeing different societies within the same overall species, that’s quite the addition.

Wonder if we might see Demiurg join Tau now?

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The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.







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Deadnight wrote:
The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.








Given the implied relationship between Kin and the Imperium? Demiurg may simply be handy dandy go-betweens. A catspaw to sell tech to the Tau, without giving the Ad Mech an excuse to promote Imperial Aggresion.

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Its really interesting how the three strands might interact with each other, the Necromunda squats trade with the Demiurg for example. Going to be interesting as well to find out exactly what the relationship the Kin have with the Imperium - they aren't exactly xenos but they aren't looking imperial either..
   
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U.k

Deadnight wrote:
The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.








From the whc article discussing squat history.

“ Were these the Leagues sneaking back into the setting, or a new alien species filling a similar role? We’re still not sure,”

I imagine they will leave it that way. Not something really talked about at this time.
   
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Andykp wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.




From the whc article discussing squat history.

“ Were these the Leagues sneaking back into the setting, or a new alien species filling a similar role? We’re still not sure,”

I imagine they will leave it that way. Not something really talked about at this time.


Indeed theres that. Theres also the newest article article discussing weaponry:

From the Autoch-pattern bolter to the Etacarn plasma gun, many Kin weapons bear superficial similarities to Imperial weapons, but they’re superior in every respect. There’s a clear shared ancestry between the bolt revolver and bolt shotgun and the bolt weapons of the Adeptus Astartes, but Kin weapons simply work better and hit harder.

Then there are items like the volkanite disintegrators, which use technology since lost to the Imperium, or ion technology, which is proscribed by the Adeptus Mechanicus. That’s their loss – the T’au Empire certainly seemed to appreciate being taught how to harness it


Seems rather convincing to me. I'm open to ut being up-vague-ified again though.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 17:26:53


 
   
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To be fair, the Tau being taught it is not the same as the Leagues teaching it to the Tau. At face value, it’s only really telling us it’s the same tech tree as Tau Ion weaponry.

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U.k

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To be fair, the Tau being taught it is not the same as the Leagues teaching it to the Tau. At face value, it’s only really telling us it’s the same tech tree as Tau Ion weaponry.


That’s was my reading of it too, doesn’t say for sure that they are the same. If the demuirig didn’t exist tat statement still makes sense. They could be getting squatted??
   
 
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