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Made in se
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 Amishprn86 wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's


Doesn't the tokens means X to hit autowounds and counts as a 6 to wound?
So 30 shots against a target with 3 tokens is on average at least 15 MW's on hits alone.

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 MinscS2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's


Doesn't the tokens means X to hit autowounds and counts as a 6 to wound?
So 30 shots against a target with 3 tokens is on average at least 15 MW's on hits alone.
The Volkite does Mortals on a 6 to-hit, not to-wound.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's


Doesn't the tokens means X to hit autowounds and counts as a 6 to wound?
So 30 shots against a target with 3 tokens is on average at least 15 MW's on hits alone.
The Volkite does Mortals on a 6 to-hit, not to-wound.


Ah, the Votann Volkite works differently I see, doing MW's on to-hit 6's and not to-wound 6's.

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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/29/leagues-of-votann-balance-update-a-word-from-james-workshop/

Annnnnd that didn't take very long, did it.
   
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Bonn

Now even Germany can play Votann again.

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Rough change to THA, Forge-Master's Ancestral Judgement, and Ion Storm. They get progressively worse the more tokens on the target.

30% increase to the Hekaton doesn't really make sense after this nerf, but I guess it's just okay now instead of must-have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 21:39:39


 
   
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GW simply removing the "auto-wounds count as 6's to wound" without replacing all the weaponry/rules that having triggers on 6's to wound to triggering on 6's to hit show how half-assed and rushed this errata is. "Gotta nerf quickly before more tournaments bann our shiny new product, sales are going down, nooo!"

A bunch of LoV rules and weapons now get progressively worse by their own army-rule - and they got more expensive to boot.
It's so stupid I can barely believe it.


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Denison, Iowa

Looks like my 2000 point list will now be a trio of buffing characters, 2 Sagitaurs, and 90-100 Herthkyn with upgrades. Horde city here I come.
   
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Overall everything is fine and understandable except Thunderkyn didn't need any points up and Hearthguard easily went up too much, but the rest is fine.

I really hope GW take points off Hearthguard and Thunderkyn bc now I see literally no reason to take them.

   
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Denison, Iowa

Hell, Thunderkyn needed a points drop BEFORE this balance, IMHO.
   
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 MinscS2 wrote:
GW simply removing the "auto-wounds count as 6's to wound" without replacing all the weaponry/rules that having triggers on 6's to wound to triggering on 6's to hit show how half-assed and rushed this errata is. "Gotta nerf quickly before more tournaments bann our shiny new product, sales are going down, nooo!"

A bunch of LoV rules and weapons now get progressively worse by their own army-rule - and they got more expensive to boot.
It's so stupid I can barely believe it.



You know they are laughing all the way to the bank. It's like buying a McDonald's burger half cooked - you know it's McDonald's but even by their standards it's pretty bad.
   
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UK

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Overall everything is fine and understandable except Thunderkyn didn't need any points up and Hearthguard easily went up too much, but the rest is fine.

I really hope GW take points off Hearthguard and Thunderkyn bc now I see literally no reason to take them.


Thunderkyn were a good unit previously, they were just completely overshadowed by everything else in the book. Lots of armies would have killed to have a Thunderkyn unit in their book. The beamer ones might be too expensive now, but we'll have to see.

Hearthguard probably did go up 5 points too many but I can still see them being taken as maybe a 2x5, or maybe in like a 1x7 formation. Their damage output and the crazy amount of defense they can have (which makes a 2W model kind of ridiculous to shift) still makes them viable, but I do doubt you'll see one or two big blobs of them. 40ppm definitely feels like the logical increase they should have gotten.

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 Amishprn86 wrote:
Overall everything is fine and understandable except Thunderkyn didn't need any points up and Hearthguard easily went up too much, but the rest is fine.

I really hope GW take points off Hearthguard and Thunderkyn bc now I see literally no reason to take them.


Berserks went up too much as well. Compare them to similar units with a similar pricetag and you can see how overpriced they currently are.
Land Fortress biggest issue was the Magma Rail-abuse, which is now gone. No way is it worth 300 points currently either.

I expect we'll see broad point reductions in LoVs next balace update - an update that GW might actually have put some thoughts behind, instead of just massively nerfing everything in a panic due to being scared of loosing out on sales.

 Bosskelot wrote:

Their damage output and the crazy amount of defense they can have (which makes a 2W model kind of ridiculous to shift) still makes them viable


You're giving Hearthguard too much credit. They are literally about as easy to kill as a Terminator: They do have +1T, and no wound-rerolls, but 2 wounds with -1 damage is worse than 3 wounds in every regard, and they don't have an invuln by default. They're also worse in close combat due to having fewer attacks. At least they out-shoot the terminators.

In a game with 38 ppm Terminators, 45 ppm Hearthguard makes no sense, so I agree that 40 (tops) sound about right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 09:35:29


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Colorado Springs, CO

Played my first small game with them on Wednesday, so pre-nerf.

I played:

Kahl w/ Concussion Gauntlet and Volkite
Einhyr Champ w/ relic hammer
one squad of HK w/ MRR, ML, Medic, Scanner, Radio.
one squad of KH w/ Ion, MRR, Beamer, Medic, Scanner, Radio

My opponent ran elder:

Maugan Ra
5x Rangers
10x Guardians w/ multi-laser platform
War Walker
5x Warp Spiders

He won pretty handily on points. I could've played it better for sure, but he was just so much faster than me. Battle Focus meant he was able to stay out of charge range for most of the game if he wanted plus he was able to snag objectives much easier.

Even with the automatically advancing 3" I was surprised at how limited I felt with mobility.

The hearthkyn dealt some paint and pretty much took care of the war walker and the squad of guardians. Maugan Ra put 4 wounds on the Einhyr champion and then did another in combat. I would've killed him but the capped at three wounds per phase is brutal.

Warp Spiders DS near the Ion Blaster HK squad and easily wiped them out. That unit is kind of bonkers strong. Their shooting is soooo good.

I think my take-aways are that bikes and/or transports are going to be mandatory to pressure objectives or keep fast enemies like Eldar from going where we don't want them to go.

I was also surprised at how fragile everything felt. T4 doesn't mean much when every weapon in the game seemed to be designed to take out Space Marines. Void armor helped, but it often didn't matter too much that they couldn't re-roll wounds. Stuff still dies easily enough.

I didn't like the beamer. It doesn't seem like an 18" range will often be able to hit multiple units which I feel is an ability you're definitely paying for.

I'm also not sold on the MRR, which was true even BEFORE they went up in points. One shot and now not auto-wounding on 6s to hit with judgment tokens means you're very unlikely to ever see the damage spill over, and so you're paying a huge premium for an ability you likely won't use.

All in all though, I think it is a fun army and I'm looking forward to playing more games with them!

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Michigan

So after the point changes what are the units to take to get the job done?
I know its hard to say since more than half the codex isn't out yet. But between theoryhammer, proxies and 3rd party models, we should be able to have a pretty decent guess.
First there are 3 units that seems to be mandatory and probably worth loading up on.
1. The troops. Still polyvalent, still pack a punch at short range. So I think more than the mandatory minimum is the way to go.
2. The big boss. Judgment tokens looks like they are still the way to do damage. I don't think a list is viable without.
3. Now the bikes im not 100% sure wether the sagitaur or the bikes are best at objective grabing. One of the 2 is mandatory in the "3 squads of bikes or 3 sagitaur" or a mix? I'd like some matchmaker on that...

The rest I really really don't know.
A. Both melee unit will delete anything it reaches. But the reaching is the problem.
Berserker need a transport, hearthkin cost almost as much than berzerker+transport.
So which of the two is best at grabbing an occupied objective. And which one (including transport for zerker) can hold it better?
B.The fortress... at 300pts you'll have just one on the table, is it able to survive without character support. Is it able to do something better than the equivalent in points of other model can't do. On the other hand, kinda the only long range option (appart from the 3-4 troop magna rail...).
Can one make a case for having 2?

C. Characters. Psyker, mechanic or hth killer? Or another khal to max out tokens?
While the hth guy seems to destroy characters or knight in melee, how often is that going to happen?
The mechanic seems only worth it if you have a fortress, but then is a 1d3+2 w regenerating, ignoring 1 meltawound each turn... worth 425pts?
The psyker seems more polyvalent (1cp per turn, negate inv).
An extra khal seems a better bet, but I have a feeling the enemy will be saturated with token pretty fast and by turn 3 a 2nd khal will turn useless.

So how is the list building theory hammer consensus?

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Denison, Iowa

What is everyone thinking is the most effective squad weapon upgrade for Herthkyn? Most people are saying the Magna Rail Rifle, but I'm leaning towards the L7 missile launchers. Hits hard early, and can switch to high volume of fire after enough grudge tokens are out to rely on that.
   
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Italy

I had decided to not buy the Votanns cos I'm already full of miniatures to paint and I've 4 army to follow but... My friends decided for me and gifted me the new box for my birthday so here I am.
Now, I haven't read anything about them, (you know, was tryng to not fall in temptation lol) I only know that they are considered OP by the community and GW decided to nerf them as faster as possibile .

Could someone give me an intro on the new Votanns?
How they play, what I should buy for enlarge the collection and when the other models will come out?
   
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 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/29/leagues-of-votann-balance-update-a-word-from-james-workshop/

Annnnnd that didn't take very long, did it.

Are these changes enough to make LoV less ''overpowered''?
Sorry have no codex yet.

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LoV will have good showings at a number of small competitive events, and then sweep a large event, at which time GW will convienently release a complete nerf of the faction, removing all that makes them good, and relegate them to another flavor of Primaris Marine faction. Then 10th will drop. And they won't see a codex update for another year+.

As the totally not a space Marine once said about GW: "This is the way".
   
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 wuestenfux wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/29/leagues-of-votann-balance-update-a-word-from-james-workshop/

Annnnnd that didn't take very long, did it.

Are these changes enough to make LoV less ''overpowered''?
Sorry have no codex yet.


I played the new nerfs twice and they are much weaker than before, no room for fun units in comp and out of comp the fun units (aka Thunderkyn, Hearthguard, Champion) all feel pretty weak, and hit or miss at times even. HLFs and Beserks are still 60% of the DPS that basically only can score Grind them down. The army is going to struggle gaining points and a good player will make sure they deny you points rather than try to out kill, with IMO something like 40% less damage than before many armies will be able to do this someone easily. Its going to come down to mission, match up, and secondaries if it is going to be a hard or easy match up against LoV.

   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
LoV will have good showings at a number of small competitive events, and then sweep a large event, at which time GW will convienently release a complete nerf of the faction, removing all that makes them good, and relegate them to another flavor of Primaris Marine faction. Then 10th will drop. And they won't see a codex update for another year+.

As the totally not a space Marine once said about GW: "This is the way".


I don't think that's likely. They look far easier to handle especially now that their strongest synergies no longer really work and they'll be running far fewer units than they would have before. They seem poised to be the scourges of the middle tables. A gatekeeper army that really punishes lower tier armies and less experienced or less practiced players. They'll then fail to podium reliably at large events and then some will begin talking about how the nerf might have actually gone too far.

To me, they look solid mid to high tier now, but won't really change much of the meta at the top.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/02 16:58:39


 
   
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 cuda1179 wrote:
What is everyone thinking is the most effective squad weapon upgrade for Herthkyn? Most people are saying the Magna Rail Rifle, but I'm leaning towards the L7 missile launchers. Hits hard early, and can switch to high volume of fire after enough grudge tokens are out to rely on that.


Planning on ending up with 60 Hearthkyn and initially I was gonna go full Rail/Beam, but I'm leaning more and more towards the L7 over the Beam.
As it currently looks. I'll probably end up with 6 Rails, 4 L7's and 2 Beams.
The Beam simply lacks the range (unless you play Ymyr), so you won't be able to fire it more often than not in turn 1 and potentially not even in turn 2.
The HYlas isn't bad, it just doesn't offer anything unique over the others, so I see it as rather pointless.

Remember that in a squad of 10, while you can have 2 heavy weapons, they can't be duplicates.



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 MinscS2 wrote:

The HYlas isn't bad, it just doesn't offer anything unique over the others, so I see it as rather pointless.


I can see that being a viable place to throw 5 points if you've got a Warrior squad with room for the upgrade. It wants to shoot the same things your bolters want to anyway.

Still unsure how valuable the Magna-Rail will be in those units given it's got like no real chance to spillover against tough infantry units since there's no reason you won't be judging those particular units anyway. I guess it's one of the only sources for pure anti-tank tools, I suppose. Decisions, decisions...
   
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coming from being an ork player this feels very very different. i'm used to having close to 20 units to shift around with obvious throwaways.

list building post points hike has gotten alot tighter, it feels very AOS like where points on non-troops are so high it doesnt leave alot of room for granularity.

current build i'm looking at:

GTL - 1998pts, 0cp

Uthar - 1cp - Ancestral Bearing, Experienced Eye
Lord Grimnyr 2cp - crushing contempt, interface echo, Pragmatic wisdom, Murmuring Stave
Forge Master 2cp - master armourer, volumms master artifice(1 cp to potentially double or more his number of shots seems worthwhile)
1x10 bolter warriors w/ medpack
2x10 ion warriors w/ medpack, comms, railgun
1x5 Hearthguard 1cp - volkites and plasma blades, Warpstryk on the Hesyr. saves me 1cp during the game by prepaying for site to site
1x5 beserks w/ mole
2x6 pioneer w/ comms, searchlight and double Rotary Cannon
Hekaton w/ railgun and bolt cannons

gives up 10 for assassination, 10 for NoP, 3 for BiD

Bolters hold home, 5 beserks in the hekaton as it slow rolls forward. Hearthguard as a turn 1 deepstrike threat. bikes being fast response while ions march up the board
if it wasnt for HuntRs mark i dont think i would be running the Hekaton at all. 1cp to auto hit with the railgun then 6 to wound with Uthar.


secondaries:
Psychic Interrogation - between this interface echo and pragmatic wisdom the army has access to 5 cp/round
banners/RND/prospect

third will always be a tossup depending on the enemy - no prisoners/BiD are ideal, ancestors are watching if i know i can table my opponent.

with so few pieces, comms seem like an almost mandatory buff to ensure i get more our of every unit. looking at the cost of rail guns, i am tempted to drop them from infantry squads in favor of a beamer and L7 but ignoring invulns w/ap4 is too good to pass up

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 14:00:39


 
   
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Why so many Ion Warriors? You like the profile for them better than the extra range and shots on the bolters?

One of the things I'm a bit surprised about with GTL lists is the lack of Sagitaurs because it feels like a perfect way to leverage the per unit reroll by creating smaller Warrior squads, each with a high quality, low shot special weapon. Did you consider Sagitaurs in your list, or are you leaning more towards the equipment upgrades (medic, comms, etc.) being more valuable to you?

I have like zero units in my other armies that are on that large of a base and can also hit 6 models, but do you know how difficult it would be to maintain unit coherency for six Pioneers with terrain in play? Trivial, or tricky?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/10/05 02:25:24


 
   
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 Vilgeir wrote:
Why so many Ion Warriors? You like the profile for them better than the extra range and shots on the bolters?

One of the things I'm a bit surprised about with GTL lists is the lack of Sagitaurs because it feels like a perfect way to leverage the per unit reroll by creating smaller Warrior squads, each with a high quality, low shot special weapon. Did you consider Sagitaurs in your list, or are you leaning more towards the equipment upgrades (medic, comms, etc.) being more valuable to you?

I have like zero units in my other armies that are on that large of a base and can also hit 6 models, but do you know how difficult it would be to maintain unit coherency for six Pioneers with terrain in play? Trivial, or tricky?



comms buy me reroll 1s for the whole unit for 5 points. Having run ork buggy lists for ages, i know Sagitaurs are going to die, quickly, or i am holding them back and spending 150 pts to combat squad some troops. any anti tank fire the enemy has will be pointed directly at them. not taking them is denying my opponent efficiency more than what i feel i am losing.

ion blasters vs bolters - against 1w models, bolters win, against multi wound models, ion blasters win. against the field, ion has far more utility than bolters. the pioneers have plenty of d1 shots.

pioneer base sizing - trivial. they have fly, there is no where they cannot go. running 6 mans gives efficiency w/ the comms array and searchlight, along with 2 basic pioneers that die off before losing anything upgraded. if anything i should probably be running 3x6 pioneers and pretend i am a pre-nerf custodes bike list that has more ranged output and less defense, but i dont want to give up the T1 deep strike threat with the hearthguard just yet - time will tell.
   
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I'm running 4 Sagitaurs in my 2000pt list with x4 5 man squads of Ion inside.

The issue I have now is deciding on GTL or the Ymyr +4" range, 5++ saves and =1 ap at half range tokened units.

The Sagituars getting a 5++ is nice, but I learned long ago that my rolling saves in the 5 and 6 range are pretty bad so I am not jumping out of my seat.

I haven't built my two boxes yet so I can't play test what will feel right for me.

* maybe the +1 Toughness and all enemy units are treated as having 1 token is a good choice. My rolling of dice won't be involved in deciding if its good or not..... :-)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/05 04:52:54


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terennNash wrote:
comms buy me reroll 1s for the whole unit for 5 points. Having run ork buggy lists for ages, i know Sagitaurs are going to die, quickly, or i am holding them back and spending 150 pts to combat squad some troops. any anti tank fire the enemy has will be pointed directly at them. not taking them is denying my opponent efficiency more than what i feel i am losing.

ion blasters vs bolters - against 1w models, bolters win, against multi wound models, ion blasters win. against the field, ion has far more utility than bolters. the pioneers have plenty of d1 shots.

pioneer base sizing - trivial. they have fly, there is no where they cannot go. running 6 mans gives efficiency w/ the comms array and searchlight, along with 2 basic pioneers that die off before losing anything upgraded. if anything i should probably be running 3x6 pioneers and pretend i am a pre-nerf custodes bike list that has more ranged output and less defense, but i dont want to give up the T1 deep strike threat with the hearthguard just yet - time will tell.


Thanks for explaining!

For what's it's worth, vis a vis the Sagitaurs, any anti-tank going into them is fewer shots trying to down your Hekaton or even punching into your bikes. Right now there's one primary target for that anti-tank, but they'll be efficient enough punching into T5 4+ obsec units after they focus the big threat into slag.

I understand your preference for Ions, that all makes sense, though I personally don't think their benefits outweigh their limited range for an army this slow. When Ion Storm was a thing, I was planning to have some in my collection. Now I feel like they'll just be worse in my local meta. So much -1 damage around these parts, but that's a local consideration and mileage varies.

Good to know on the base sizes and coherency with Pioneers. I didn't even notice they have fly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/05 05:01:44


 
   
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 Da-Rock wrote:

The Sagituars getting a 5++ is nice, but I learned long ago that my rolling saves in the 5 and 6 range are pretty bad so I am not jumping out of my seat.


Bad as in 33% of the rolls

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