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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:
not crossing is financially more beneficial probably due to profit margins.


I don't think it's a big ticket item that they'd miss. Making it free gets more people into the system.

If they got $20 profit from selling 10,000 of them that $200,000 represents 0.001% of their half year sales. It seems inconsequential.

And they can still sell hard copies as people like to have them in hand still.


   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord






It doesn’t even need to be completely Free! Put it in the app for subscribers!

 
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

Well, we got the answer to the question in today's metawatch video. We'll be getting new points and the new season book in January.

4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
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Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





a_typical_hero wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.


In the context of Warhammer, there are absolutely areas where GW could make an objectively better game.
Just internal and external army balancing, to name the most obvious point.

I think you will be hard pressed to find somebody arguing "but I'm having my subjective fun playing a sub 40% win rate faction where 8 out of 10 units are dumbsterfire tier and I want it that way. Nothing to improve here.".


To be fair I know those type of people. The guys who will bring an all Grot Tank army to an event and then lose everything in a game while killing nothing. I will however admit that they aren't numerous.

However, I do think that GW is aiming for a more balanced game. Now whether that constitutes a fun game is anyone's opinion.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






End of the day, the overwhelming majority of us understand that GW could do better with 40k if they simply decided to do so. They don't, and we are left debating the results. While I am all for holding the devs accountable I also have some sympathy for being given limited time, limited resources, and not enough salary to do a job well. Some.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Eldarsif wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.


In the context of Warhammer, there are absolutely areas where GW could make an objectively better game.
Just internal and external army balancing, to name the most obvious point.

I think you will be hard pressed to find somebody arguing "but I'm having my subjective fun playing a sub 40% win rate faction where 8 out of 10 units are dumbsterfire tier and I want it that way. Nothing to improve here.".


To be fair I know those type of people. The guys who will bring an all Grot Tank army to an event and then lose everything in a game while killing nothing. I will however admit that they aren't numerous.


Then you know some incompetent Grot players.
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





ccs wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.


In the context of Warhammer, there are absolutely areas where GW could make an objectively better game.
Just internal and external army balancing, to name the most obvious point.

I think you will be hard pressed to find somebody arguing "but I'm having my subjective fun playing a sub 40% win rate faction where 8 out of 10 units are dumbsterfire tier and I want it that way. Nothing to improve here.".


To be fair I know those type of people. The guys who will bring an all Grot Tank army to an event and then lose everything in a game while killing nothing. I will however admit that they aren't numerous.


Then you know some incompetent Grot players.


Because heaven forbid a person just wants to have some silly fun, and here I thought Dakkadakka disliked the tournament circuit for the most part.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.
The bigger trap is believing that whenever someone calls for a better game that they are in fact asking for "absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are", because I've yet to see someone actually do that.

Going further, the only people who ever bring up "absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace..." are those gaking on those calling for a better game.


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
End of the day, the overwhelming majority of us understand that GW could do better with 40k if they simply decided to do so. They don't, and we are left debating the results. While I am all for holding the devs accountable I also have some sympathy for being given limited time, limited resources, and not enough salary to do a job well. Some.


But that have been doing better?

The Metawatch video demonstrates that they understand the problems they're facing. It's a big ship and it doesn't turn on a dime.

There's always going to be facets of 40K that some faction doesn't like though.

   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Hammer of the Emperor and Armour of Concept show us they don't know how to fix anything.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
End of the day, the overwhelming majority of us understand that GW could do better with 40k if they simply decided to do so. They don't, and we are left debating the results. While I am all for holding the devs accountable I also have some sympathy for being given limited time, limited resources, and not enough salary to do a job well. Some.


But that have been doing better?

The Metawatch video demonstrates that they understand the problems they're facing. It's a big ship and it doesn't turn on a dime.

There's always going to be facets of 40K that some faction doesn't like though.


As h.b.m.c. pointed out as exemples, gw does not seem to Find the right tool for the problem, Part of which is their release and subsequent test cycle.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
not crossing is financially more beneficial probably due to profit margins.


I don't think it's a big ticket item that they'd miss. Making it free gets more people into the system.

If they got $20 profit from selling 10,000 of them that $200,000 represents 0.001% of their half year sales. It seems inconsequential.

And they can still sell hard copies as people like to have them in hand still.



Contra point buisness often regards products separately and then compare them to the totals.

And in that regard printing and shipping for gw per codex at most will cost about 10-15 CHF, they sell them locally via flgs for 47.50 CHF. Assume the flgs gets them for 40 CHF a pop and Lo and behold they have a pure profit margin of + 100% recuringly.

It may well even be cheaper, depending upon where gw prints which varies but happens in many cases to be China.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/18 15:16:43


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hammer of the Emperor and Armour of Concept show us they don't know how to fix anything.


Falls under turning a big ship on a dime.

AoC did an average job. HoE was an attempt to fix a really old book and there were tons of posts here about how broken it was going to be ( a la X guardsmen in 12" kills a tank sort of math at the start of 8th )... and then it wasn't.

Same problem with CSM. Adding that second wound wasn't going to do anything other than maybe make some people feel a little better about taking CSM. You need a whole rework to get things in the right place.

They did large sort of ham-fisted fixes and people got upset. Then they did some really light touches....and people got upset.

Regardless of the ever shifting community sentiment people seem to be able to take most armies to victory by employing some form of skill.

   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





But AoC and Hammer show that gw 's armerace of AP and s and D for everyone after increases of w, etc completly spiraling out of controll and are at most a bandaid on a wound that was the completly nuts increase in lethality provoked by gw 's release cycle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/18 16:35:57


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:

Contra point buisness often regards products separately and then compare them to the totals.

And in that regard printing and shipping for gw per codex at most will cost about 10-15 CHF, they sell them locally via flgs for 47.50 CHF. Assume the flgs gets them for 40 CHF a pop and Lo and behold they have a pure profit margin of + 100% recuringly.

It may well even be cheaper, depending upon where gw prints which varies but happens in many cases to be China.



Last I saw FLGS gets product for 50%, which is why GW has rules about discounting past 15%. When you look at their sales 56%+ is through trade accounts, but quantifying it in units sold it's more like 72%. When you look at margins for their website it's like 85%.

If you look at the costs they assign it's five times the cost for less than three times the sales to FLGS -- that's without placing "Design, manufacturing, logistics and operations" into those cost centers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
But AoC and Hammer show that gw 's armerace of AP and s and D for everyone after increases of w, etc completly spiraling out of controll and are at most a bandaid on a wound that was the completly nuts increase in lethality provoked by gw 's release cycle.


I wouldn't be able to sit here an quantify everything, but my gut tells me that there have been as many durability improvements as there have been damage.

GW's release model is just so antiquated that it looks as if they did test those books together early in the edition and had to take things away until they could walk change back later in the edition.

Now this is from someone who thinks units dying regularly is appropriate for the number of models we put on the table - otherwise games would take far longer than 3 hours. I'm sure people have preferences for a more ponderous game, but I don't have a good solution for that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/18 16:40:44


   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





From when is that number off 50%?
And where?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Not Online!!! wrote:
From when is that number off 50%?
And where?


Trade pricelists have been shared online many times over the years. Whenever you see RRP prices for new things posted online on a Monday, that's where they come from.

Usually we just get a partial screenshot with the product names and RRP, but sometimes the whole file is shown.

I think 55% is a more common cost price for GW product, and it can vary by region and specific trade account.
   
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United Kingdom

 xttz wrote:
Trade pricelists have been shared online many times over the years.
They're on the website for anyone to see - go to https://trade.games-workshop.com/resources/, then "Guidance Docs" > "Order Forms" > "Pricelist".
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hammer of the Emperor and Armour of Concept show us they don't know how to fix anything.


Falls under turning a big ship on a dime.

AoC did an average job. HoE was an attempt to fix a really old book and there were tons of posts here about how broken it was going to be ( a la X guardsmen in 12" kills a tank sort of math at the start of 8th )... and then it wasn't.

Same problem with CSM. Adding that second wound wasn't going to do anything other than maybe make some people feel a little better about taking CSM. You need a whole rework to get things in the right place.

They did large sort of ham-fisted fixes and people got upset. Then they did some really light touches....and people got upset.

Regardless of the ever shifting community sentiment people seem to be able to take most armies to victory by employing some form of skill.
There's so much wrong with this post I just don't even know where to begin. I'm not even going to bother, other than to say it's full of it.

It's like "everything is fine because my metrics are garbage".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/18 17:26:59


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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 Eldarsif wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.


In the context of Warhammer, there are absolutely areas where GW could make an objectively better game.
Just internal and external army balancing, to name the most obvious point.

I think you will be hard pressed to find somebody arguing "but I'm having my subjective fun playing a sub 40% win rate faction where 8 out of 10 units are dumbsterfire tier and I want it that way. Nothing to improve here.".


However, I do think that GW is aiming for a more balanced game.

LOL you really believe that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.
The bigger trap is believing that whenever someone calls for a better game that they are in fact asking for "absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are", because I've yet to see someone actually do that.

Going further, the only people who ever bring up "absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace..." are those gaking on those calling for a better game.


Bingo. Perfection should still be what a game designer should be striving for instead of the "Eh whatever" GW "rules writers" are doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
End of the day, the overwhelming majority of us understand that GW could do better with 40k if they simply decided to do so. They don't, and we are left debating the results. While I am all for holding the devs accountable I also have some sympathy for being given limited time, limited resources, and not enough salary to do a job well. Some.


But that have been doing better?

The Metawatch video demonstrates that they understand the problems they're facing. It's a big ship and it doesn't turn on a dime.

There's always going to be facets of 40K that some faction doesn't like though.

You mean the Metawatch that even casual Reddit 40k users proved incorrect? I loved that hilarious bit of "too many new players bring Marines and they're actually fine" and then Reddit immediately proved that incorrect.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/18 18:04:51


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
There's so much wrong with this post I just don't even know where to begin. I'm not even going to bother, other than to say it's full of it.

It's like "everything is fine because my metrics are garbage".


If you say so, I guess.

- It's pretty clear that there's a lot more that make CSM decent than just a single wound. It is also evident that that complaints on Abaddon weren't well founded.
- People definitely complained about heavy handed changes and now they're upset that GW didn't do enough. I'm sure there isn't 100% overlap, but it's there.
- There's far more army diversity in top placings than in the past.

It's that common thread of arguing both sides of the coin that drives me nuts:

"Tournament data shows Nids are busted! GW sucks!"...."Tournament data is so useless to measure our concerns! GW sucks!"

Brandt openly acknowledged that GSC have a decent win rate, but that they see it's based on a narrow set of selections from the book and they're going to try and rectify that - among other things.

If people can see the difference in trajectory I'm not sure what else I can say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
You mean the Metawatch that even casual Reddit 40k users proved incorrect? I loved that hilarious bit of "too many new players bring Marines and they're actually fine" and then Reddit immediately proved that incorrect.


They didn't. I posted up data in another thread that does show a heavy new player input into marines. Whether or not their solution solves that problem is a different story, but applying other top level marine-wide fixes dont work when facets of marines can do well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/18 18:08:12


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
There's so much wrong with this post I just don't even know where to begin. I'm not even going to bother, other than to say it's full of it.

It's like "everything is fine because my metrics are garbage".


If you say so, I guess.

- It's pretty clear that there's a lot more that make CSM decent than just a single wound. It is also evident that that complaints on Abaddon weren't well founded.
- People definitely complained about heavy handed changes and now they're upset that GW didn't do enough. I'm sure there isn't 100% overlap, but it's there.
- There's far more army diversity in top placings than in the past.

It's that common thread of arguing both sides of the coin that drives me nuts:

"Tournament data shows Nids are busted! GW sucks!"...."Tournament data is so useless to measure our concerns! GW sucks!"

Brandt openly acknowledged that GSC have a decent win rate, but that they see it's based on a narrow set of selections from the book and they're going to try and rectify that - among other things.

If people can see the difference in trajectory I'm not sure what else I can say.

"It's that common thread of arguing both sides of the coin that drives me nuts:

"Tournament data shows Nids are busted! GW sucks!"...."Tournament data is so useless to measure our concerns! GW sucks!" "

Both of those statements are neither the same coin, nor are they mutually exclusive.

Credit where credit is due, achieving a high variety of armies on top tables is great. But the way it's being achieved is moronic. And failures to do even such simple things as grant CSM 2W when they gave it to Marines is horse***t.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Falls under turning a big ship on a dime.
No it falls under the complete abdication of responsibility towards writing a ruleset worth a damn.

Make all the excuses for them that you want, D, but Armour of Contempt was them giving up, was them throwing their hands up at the mess of giving out far too many save modifiers across the entire game, not seeing where it was headed, and just going "Ok! We don't know what to do so... everything in this select category just has a 2+ save now, basically! Hope it helps!".

Hammer of the Emperor was even worse, as it doesn't make sense from a conceptual level, and was them giving up on finding a real solution to fix a flagging army. Now you could argue that it was a stop-gap as the Guard's new Codex wasn't that far off, except that Hammer of the Emperor made it into the new Codex!!!

These are the. Worst. Two. Rules. That. GW. Have. Produced. In. Years. No question.

They are absolutely indicative of the creative rot/bankruptcy that plagues their rules team, even moreso than the inane sprue-based restrictions that are just getting worse with every release (do your Kriegers want a Plasma Gun, or a Vox... 'cause they can't have both anymore! ).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/11/18 20:32:39


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Falls under turning a big ship on a dime.
No it falls under the complete abdication of responsibility towards writing a ruleset worth a damn.

Make all the excuses for them that you want, D, but Armour of Contempt was them giving up, was them throwing their hands up at the mess of giving out far too many save modifiers across the entire game, not seeing where it was headed, and just going "Ok! We don't know what to do so... everything in these selector category just has a 2+ save now, basically! Hope it helps!".

Hammer of the Emperor was even worse, as it doesn't make sense from a conceptual level, and was them giving up on finding a real solution to fix a flagging army. Now you could argue that it was a stop-gap as the Guard's new Codex wasn't that far off, except that Hammer of the Emperor made it into the new Codex!!!

These are the. Worse. Two. Rules. That. GW. Have. Produced. In. Years.

They are absolutely indicative of the creative rot/bankruptcy that plagues their rules team, even moreso than the inane sprue-based restrictions that are just getting worse with every release (do your Kriegers want a Plasma Gun, or a Vox... 'cause they can't have both anymore! ).


I'd still argue the worst rule of the last two editions that was meant to be a "fix" was the generic Strat to give everyone cover. Utterly hilarious to show that the baseline game needed to be redone.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
However, I do think that GW is aiming for a more balanced game.

LOL you really believe that?
Didn't say GW's aim was any good. And that's the reality; they ARE trying to make a better game. They are just bad at it.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
These are the. Worst. Two. Rules. That. GW. Have. Produced. In. Years. No question.

Even worse, they've actually printed AoC in the Votann codex and then printed HoE in the Guard codex (ignoring the super HoE that they printed in the Votann codex then quickly removed).

The rules writing team just seem incapable of learning from mistakes.

AdMech codex in May 2021 they print a 4+ to auto-wound strat, it breaks the game at the time and the common complaint is about a S3 weapon invalidating the existence of T7+ monsters.

Now here we are, a bunch of S3/4 guns in two codexes are auto-wounding T7+ targets. And what have they learned in a year... To drop the restriction that prevented it working on vehicles so that even more units and players can feel bad when their big tough unit melts.
   
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I’m fond of the whole saves, weapons that ignore saves, invulnerable saves, weapons that ignore invulnerable saves, super invulnerable saves, weapons that ignore super invulnerable saves arms race they’ve got going.

 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:



If they got $20 profit from selling 10,000 of them that $200,000 represents 0.001% of their half year sales. It seems inconsequential.




0.1*% of their half year sales. And if this isn't the most "well, ackshually..." thing I have ever typed, then I need to make some changes
   
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Sacratomato

 AduroT wrote:
I’m fond of the whole saves, weapons that ignore saves, invulnerable saves, weapons that ignore invulnerable saves, super invulnerable saves, weapons that ignore super invulnerable saves arms race they’ve got going.


This.........in so many ways this is the CORE of Games Workshop rules writing since 3rd Edition!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/22 07:29:54


70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
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 Platuan4th wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
It just seems extra dumb to make a book you’re “supposed” to have for tournaments and only make it in a limited amount.
Sounds exactly like what GW would do though.


Not trying to excuse it, but I can see why they'd short it so that they're not sitting on a bunch of worthless product after the planned 6 month lifespan.


If that's their concern, release the rules digitally or go back to 1 year seasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sasori wrote:


Since I almost exclusively play matched play, I really like the seasons. Missions getting shaken up some every 6 months is actually a lot of fun, and helps things from getting stale.


I also exclusively play matched play but have a job, wife in a another country, and other hobbies. By the time I learn the missions and secondaries, they're being invalidated by the new book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/22 14:00:51


 
   
Made in pl
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 Daedalus81 wrote:


But that have been doing better?

The Metawatch video demonstrates that they understand the problems they're facing. It's a big ship and it doesn't turn on a dime.

There's always going to be facets of 40K that some faction doesn't like though.


How many editions does the design team need to notice that the rules they are giving eldar are a head above other factions. Their other insights in to what they think about win rates and rules aren't much better either. Marine players are noobs, there for they will always have lower win rates? That is a view that requires a dozen logical hoops to jump through. Why can the BA noobs not take down the win rates of their armies. Why are the marine armies with better win rates having better results. Are we really , considering the win rates exisitng, to think that all or the majority CoB and EC chaos marine players are decade long veterans, while the csm noobs pick AL and IW for some reason? With other OP factions they leave the rule sets to affect the game for months or years, before they nerf them in to the ground, often by the time the faction players already moved to play other builds. But Votan or SW were pre nerfed. DG in 9th suffer from what I think of the GK FAQ effect, where every new rules update nerfs them for some reason, and the DG players are most happy, when GW just ingores them. GW is not a fresh new company, we are not playing in 2ed , and the people working as heads of the design studio are not people employed last year. It is a company over twice my age , where some people worked for decades. The "give them time" argument should not be accepted anymore. Especialy when it is in their favour, not the players, they are willing to do changes instantly, wide spread ones killing entire games, without telling players that they will do it etc.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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