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It should be noted that "Chaos" as a concept isn't always well defined for the average lay person in the setting. They might know "Chaos" is a thing but not really know that its what the local preacher is actually telling them about in weekly Sermons.

Chaos has always had this ability to present itself as something other than what it really is. Many have fallen to Chaos thinking that they are doing good for another force of the Imperium or that they are helping etc...

Heck even Inquisitors, who know a LOT about Chaos, often end up falling to its temptations.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


that's what I thought about in the first place when I heard about that piece of new lore, one that make me ponder, "they just flung the universe's logic out of the window". In the pre greatrift lore I still play in the corrupting influence of knowlegde above is valid. In my view at the beginning this is a huge factor and a big contributor in making the setting miserable, so to an extent participating in giving it its atmosphere.


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On our topic though you could say people are just too slowed or uninformed to come to the conclusion that this is chaos by themselves but still more influencial figures should I guess.

You misunderstood the lore then. Chaos is not inherently corrupting via knowledge, but people in the setting thought it did, or found it convenient to enforce that idea for self-serving reasons.


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 Overread wrote:
It should be noted that "Chaos" as a concept isn't always well defined for the average lay person in the setting. They might know "Chaos" is a thing but not really know that its what the local preacher is actually telling them about in weekly Sermons.

Chaos has always had this ability to present itself as something other than what it really is. Many have fallen to Chaos thinking that they are doing good for another force of the Imperium or that they are helping etc...

Heck even Inquisitors, who know a LOT about Chaos, often end up falling to its temptations.

The Inquisition also tends to self-select for psychopaths with no morals, it's no surprise a lot of them go off the deep end.


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 alextroy wrote:
The Emperor trained his most psychically capable Primarch in all things of the warp and said "Don't make deals with denizens of the warp". What does Magnus do? He makes a deal with a denizen of the warp.

Can you imagine why this guy didn't trust anyone with more information about Chaos than he thinks they are capable of handling? The one guy he thought could handle the truth fell for the very thing he told him to look out for.

Two core guidepost in 40K: Power Corrupts and Knowledge Corrupts.

You say "power corrupts" but you assume the Emperor was uniquely able to avoid that corrupting influence.

In any case, he kept a *lot* of secrets from Magnus, and the Emperor's jealous hoarding of knowledge ended up biting him in the ass with the heresy.

Hecaton wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


that's what I thought about in the first place when I heard about that piece of new lore, one that make me ponder, "they just flung the universe's logic out of the window". In the pre greatrift lore I still play in the corrupting influence of knowlegde above is valid. In my view at the beginning this is a huge factor and a big contributor in making the setting miserable, so to an extent participating in giving it its atmosphere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On our topic though you could say people are just too slowed or uninformed to come to the conclusion that this is chaos by themselves but still more influencial figures should I guess.

You misunderstood the lore then. Chaos is not inherently corrupting via knowledge, but people in the setting thought it did, or found it convenient to enforce that idea for self-serving reasons.




You say "power corrupts" but you assume the Emperor was uniquely able to avoid that corrupting influence.

In any case, he kept a *lot* of secrets from Magnus, and the Emperor's jealous hoarding of knowledge ended up biting him in the ass with the heresy.

I could totally have overread this bit that corruption via knowledge is not true, but can you show me where it is stated?

As for the emperor he is not really your average being either so we can grant him that as a viable plot point. I'm not too harsh on that matter.

Given what the Emperor made and his edicts...

Yeah, Emperor is NOT a good person.

Yeah the emperor is not a good person. But could we say he is dumb though?

Stumbled on a reddit (if think it was reddit) saying yes, because of the lorgar and angron cases.

But that'd be a shame if the closest the universe has to a central character was plain dumb.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Yeah the emperor is not a good person. But could we say he is dumb though?

Stumbled on a reddit (if think it was reddit) saying yes, because of the lorgar and angron cases.

But that'd be a shame if the closest the universe has to a central character was plain dumb.

Sometimes malice looks like stupidity from the outside.


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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


I could totally have overread this bit that corruption via knowledge is not true, but can you show me where it is stated?

As for the emperor he is not really your average being either so we can grant him that as a viable plot point. I'm not too harsh on that matter.

9e Chaos demons codex, which only states that Grey Knights believe that knowledge of demons is corrupting, not that it actually is.

I mean it depends. The Emperor's decisions should always be contextualised with a few things.

Firstly, his grand scheme was upset by the machinations of those opposed to him both human and non-human in origin. When the Primarchs were scattered he couldn't just sit on Terra and make new ones, he needed to act and recover his assets.
Angron was one of the last additions to the Primarch ranks and the Emperor didn't have the time to deal with conquering (i.e. razing) Nuceria, a civilised world with a martial background. The Emperor needed strong worlds that would be useful to the Crusade, not a devasted planet razed by an angry Primarch. Throw in the fact that Angron was already "damaged goods" and the Emperor just couldn't be bothered with all the fuss. Stick Angron with his Legion and just let him get on with it.

Secondly, the Emperor may be beyond normal human levels of power and abilities but he is still human and as such makes human choices. He's not perfect, and that makes him a more believable character than if he were.
With regard to Lorgar, in the Emperor's experience, people did what he told them. Why would he believe that one of his own sons would ultimately turn against him? He also had twenty other sons to worry about, most of which had their own issues *cough*Curze*cough* and the entire Imperium to run/rule. Mistakes were made but in the context of the Emperor being someone who doesn't get disobeyed and having other more important things to worry about, it makes sense.

okay I so that has to do with me not caring for 9th lore that much then so I overlooked this detail and run on outdated lore. That's fair, I acknowledge it.

One thing that's important to note with the lore is that there's a lot of micro macro variation going on.

The Emperor doesn't care for the individual within his Empire. The individual is a means to an end. His goal is a better life and existence for the entirety of humanity. He's basically playing the long-game at the expense of the here and now and those living under his rule on his way toward his goal.



This attitude filters down into the higher ranks below him and defines a lot of the Imperium's behaviour. Be it working toward a goal or maintaining the status quo.

However this doesn't mean that there is zero care for humans in the setting. Consider the Exterminatus campaign to try and starve a hive fleet. The Imperium CAN and DID do it. However it wasn't without political fallout and eventual branding of the original creator of the plan as heretical.


The Imperium doesn't care about you, but that doesn't mean there are not those within the system who do care. The sheer vastness of the setting however can dilute that down a lot.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
okay I so that has to do with me not caring for 9th lore that much then so I overlooked this detail and run on outdated lore. That's fair, I acknowledge it.

That's Heresy background that's been around for a good while longer than 9th chief. It's fine to admit you don't know stuff but it ain't new by any stretch.

Hecaton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Emperor trained his most psychically capable Primarch in all things of the warp and said "Don't make deals with denizens of the warp". What does Magnus do? He makes a deal with a denizen of the warp.

Can you imagine why this guy didn't trust anyone with more information about Chaos than he thinks they are capable of handling? The one guy he thought could handle the truth fell for the very thing he told him to look out for.

Two core guidepost in 40K: Power Corrupts and Knowledge Corrupts.

You say "power corrupts" but you assume the Emperor was uniquely able to avoid that corrupting influence.

In any case, he kept a *lot* of secrets from Magnus, and the Emperor's jealous hoarding of knowledge ended up biting him in the ass with the heresy.

Not at all. The Emperor presumedly started off as a benevolent being who wanted to help humanity. From time to time, we see him interacting with people in such a manner.

But this guy has a plan. It is a good plan. It is the Plan to Save Humanity from the Evils of the Warp. And he will do anything necessary to accomplish this plan. He scoured the Galaxy and the Warp for knowledge. Made deals to attempt to steal power from the most powerful warp entities to create his 20 perfect generals to lead up his plan. He had it all in control, until he didn't. He wasn't as smart or tricky as he thought he was. His perfect plan seriously setback by a giant warp rift that scattered his perfect generals across the Galaxy.

So he pivots. No perfect generals. He has to try and execute his plan with for less perfect and capable Astartes. He has to rush, because the clock is ticking and he is already behind schedule. So he starts to use his blunt instrument instead of his perfect tools. And it progresses until he finds his perfect tools one by one. Each of them less perfect than they were supposed to be. Some are nearly completely broken. But he puts them to work on this plan regardless.

And things do not go smoothly. He lost two of his tools. He had to put down a massive Ork adversary. Head had to discipline his children into being the generals they were supposed to be, unknowingly breaking them in the process. But he KNOWS what he needs to do. He as the POWER to do it. So he rushes on at breakneck speed into disaster.

Nah. This guy isn't immune to the corruption of Knowledge and Power. He has far too much of both and yet is blinded by his own vision as to what is going on around him.

The issue with Lorgar and Angron is that the Emperor still gave them armies. It should have been obvious that both of them were going to betray him eventually. The same goes for the rest of the Traitor Primarchs (with the exception of Horus and Fulgrim) as none of them were particularly stable individuals.

The Emperor should have known that Chaos was going to mess with his plans, yet it seems that he pretty much had no countermeasures.

This aren't the actions of someone that was good at ruling or even planning.

 Tyran wrote:
The issue with Lorgar and Angron is that the Emperor still gave them armies. It should have been obvious that both of them were going to betray him eventually. The same goes for the rest of the Traitor Primarchs (with the exception of Horus and Fulgrim) as none of them were particularly stable individuals.

Angron, yes but there were 19 Legions that could put him down plus the Custodes and the Emperor himself. Angron was a weapon the Emperor needed to complete his vision and a weapon can be discarded at any time.
As for Lorgar, where were the signs that he was a traitor? He actively destroyed the Colchisian Chaos faith before the Emperor arrived and by all means was an exceptionally loyal son, if one that didn't quite understand the whole no religion business. Lorgar fell because the Emperor made a mistake late into the Crusade when his big plans had already been messed with. When the Emperor ordered Monarchia razed he was already thinking about hanging up the sword and moving into his bachelor pad in the Webway. Lorgar doing religion was another headache that needed to be dealt with in a manner the Emperor knew best. Shock and Awe. Didn't end up well but the Emperor was not ineffable.

The Emperor should have known that Chaos was going to mess with his plans, yet it seems that he pretty much had no countermeasures.

Out of curiosity, given that the Emperor believed more knowledge of Chaos would lead to people falling to Chaos, what exactly do you mean by countermeasures? Suicide Squad style bombs in the necks of every Primarch?

I fail to see in which way the Emperor needed Angron as Angron decapitated, decimated and eventually lobotomized the War Hounds-turned-World Eaters.

Angron was nothing more than a murderer, and a particularly imbecile one at that. He was nothing but counterproductive even before the Heresy.

As for countermeasures, maybe something like the Grey Knights. Or he could have inserted his near uncorruptible Custodes into the leadership of the Legions.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
okay I so that has to do with me not caring for 9th lore that much then so I overlooked this detail and run on outdated lore. That's fair, I acknowledge it.

It's not outdated lore; it was never true and was always a misinterpretation of what was going on.

 Tyran wrote:
I fail to see in which way the Emperor needed Angron as Angron decapitated, decimated and eventually lobotomized the War Hounds-turned-World Eaters.

Angron was nothing more than a murderer, and a particularly imbecile one at that. He was nothing but counterproductive even before the Heresy.

Angron and the World Eaters were the weapons the Emperor needed them to be. A blunt force trauma used to absolutely butcher a strong enemy and send a message at the same time. The galaxy had a lot of dangerous things out there like the Rangda and Orks that wouldn't have understood the concept of rational force or acceptable losses and the Emperor needed forces that were the same.
Angron was damaged goods when he was picked up on Nuceria and the Emperor didn't have the time or even the means to fix the damage done. So he made do with the mess he was left with. A broken sword is better than no sword, and the Emperor needed all the swords. Angron and his Legion could be counted on to do one thing, kill. And that is what the Emperor needed above all.
The sad reality of it all is that of all his sons, the Emperor was the most truthful with Angron about both the Emperor's own nature as a tyrant and the role of the Primarchs as a whole. There was no culture or learning to be done, just a gun in Angron's hand and an enemy to point him at.

As for countermeasures, maybe something like the Grey Knights. Or he could have inserted his near uncorruptible Custodes into the leadership of the Legions.

You mean the Grey Knights, the ones he was making in secret on Titan throughout the Heresy when he realised Horus had been corrupted?
Or as already mentioned, the Emperor believed (incorrectly but not the point) that by starving Chaos of worship he could beat it. In the 200 years of the Crusade, there weren't any Daemonic incursions or Legions turning to Chaos (maybe depending on what theories you believe about Primarchs II and XI) so by the Emperor's metric the job was a good 'un. How was he to know that Kor Phaeron, Erebus, and Typhon were all super secret Chaos worshipers? The Emperor needed to have his mind on the bigger picture, the salvation of humanity by removing its reliance on Warp travel by building the Imperial Webway.

 Tyran wrote:
The issue with Lorgar and Angron is that the Emperor still gave them armies. It should have been obvious that both of them were going to betray him eventually. The same goes for the rest of the Traitor Primarchs (with the exception of Horus and Fulgrim) as none of them were particularly stable individuals.

The Emperor should have known that Chaos was going to mess with his plans, yet it seems that he pretty much had no countermeasures.

This aren't the actions of someone that was good at ruling or even planning.

Lorgar was a mistake. The Emperor thought he taught him not to worship gods. Instead, he taught him that I am not a god for you to worship. He didn't see the possibility that Lorgar would go looking for another god. Despite that, he installed a group of Custodes inside of the Word Bearers to ensure the followed his directives. The problem is they were not as good as detecting what Lorgar was up to as they needed to be.

Angron and his legion were a tool. A compromised tool, but a useful one still. There was no danger from that quarter without outside influence. It was the fall of Lorgar and Horus that made Angron dangerous. Your battle hound is not dangerous to you unless the handler turns on you first.

As for countermeasures, the Space Wolves existed for just such problems. They dealt with at least one of the two missing legions. The problem is they can handle only one legion at a time. He did not anticipate half the legions going rogue in an organized rebellion.

 Tyran wrote:
When has Chaos ever said their motivations are good? They are very openly about slavery, rape, baby murdery, spreading disease, standard murdery and dragging reality into the warp.

The IoM is genocidal, fascists and all that, but Chaos characters are former Imperials that found standard genocide boring and standard fascism lukewarm and decided to find something worse.

Blood Gorgons are pretty nice and Blood Pact are also highly organized for traitor guard (though I don't imagine they're to nice being devoted to the Blood God and all that). I've also heard that the Lords of Silence are like one, big "Nurglite" family.

The Red Corsairs are also pretty based and probably wouldn't be opposed to people joining their warband, as long as they swore fealty to Huron. Night Lords also make use of other members from other chapters within the Imperium, so not everyone of the warbands are gonna kill ya on sight. Just most of them will. Hell, Night Lords get overly protective of their slaves and get pissed when anyone mistreats their property.

The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Black Legion are the ones who huff copium and say that they're actually "the good guys" while kicking a puppy. Everyone else is aware that they are damned (for the most part). It's really those three that try and bend the rules out of a sense of self-righteousness.

 Abanshee wrote:
The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Black Legion are the ones who huff copium and say that they're actually "the good guys" while kicking a puppy. Everyone else is aware that they are damned (for the most part). It's really those three that try and bend the rules out of a sense of self-righteousness.

How are they "damned"? That concept is only meaningful in a context where there is an objectively correct divine being. And 40k doesn't have that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Given what the Emperor made and his edicts...

Yeah, Emperor is NOT a good person.

Eh, I mean he's a flawed person. Yes. However, I don't really see him one way or the other. I just see him as a guy, who became a god and a workaholic that neglected spending time with his sons, which bit him in the ass at the end of the day. People are quick to judge the Emperor on his actions and I can see why. He's the primary deity-figure in the setting and most of the problems in the modern setting are either directly or indirectly caused by him. It's a little more nuanced than, "he's evil".

However, consider this. By the time of the heresy, his sons are all grown up, capable of making decisions for themselves, and are slowly wrapping up the Great Crusade. Unfortunately, you got a couple (Konrad) of (Lorgar) problems (Angron). Horus, is starting to buckle under the weight of the task you've given him, but you're so damn close to finishing your science project that'll supposedly help us, so no time to spare. Now do this eighteen more times and you get the heresy. He was a neglectful father that genuinely (Horus) loved (Sanguinius) some (Dorn) of his sons, but fell on his face due to outright ignoring most of them. He played favorites way too much, made his sons doubt him, and now he has too watch forever as his one dream is slowly torn asunder by his own people.

That's why I like the Emperor. I can totally get the feeling of being strapped to a chair, helpless to do anything, and watching everything you love burn, slowly.


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Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Black Legion are the ones who huff copium and say that they're actually "the good guys" while kicking a puppy. Everyone else is aware that they are damned (for the most part). It's really those three that try and bend the rules out of a sense of self-righteousness.

How are they "damned"? That concept is only meaningful in a context where there is an objectively correct divine being. And 40k doesn't have that.

Damned as in they're all slowly dying out (sure they can replace losses, but the legion culture will also degrade over time into a shadow of it's former self), there only solace in life is war/death, and they can never turn back on any of their actions. So, yes they're damned to an eternity of torture and carnage by the Emperor's decree. Basically, if your living in a demonic hole in reality, things probably aren't all that spiffy for your living situation. Chaos is a death sentence, literally, metaphorically, and figuratively speaking.

The Eye of Terror is fighting wars against itself and the Emperor's forces almost 24/7 for no reason other than "for the dark gods, my man".

You could also say that they're damned since they're all literal shadows of the great legions they used to be or even worse in the World Eaters/Thousand Sons case.

 Abanshee wrote:
and now he has too watch forever as his one dream is slowly torn asunder by his own people.

Yeah, that "dream" of exterminating all non-human life in the galaxy along with any human civilizations that refuse to submit to his rule. The Emperor is just as much of a bad guy as any other faction's leaders.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
and now he has too watch forever as his one dream is slowly torn asunder by his own people.

Yeah, that "dream" of exterminating all non-human life in the galaxy along with any human civilizations that refuse to submit to his rule. The Emperor is just as much of a bad guy as any other faction's leaders.

Yeah, that one. Particularly the one where planets don't get WAAAGH'd on a daily basis by uncle-mushroom man and his jolly gang of green men. Or annihilated by Eldar for "being in the way or because they'd potentially be a problem later". Or they get turned into puppets by Enslavers. Or where they don't get infested by Hrud. Or get enslaved by the Rangda or whatever else they have in store for you. The one not constantly rife with civil wars and planetary uprisings thinking they can do better than a galaxy-spanning empire.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Emperor wanted to work with the Eldar, but in general treacherous nature doesn't leave way for much negotiation. I mean are you going to negotiate with the guy who just blew up one of your world's because, "he saw in some dream that this world would be a threat later" or powerfist him in the face. I'm choosing powerfist. The Eldar need to stop being arrogant dickheads if they want to open up any room for negotiation first.

So, in short. Yeah, he murders aliens, especially the ones that are downright evil and just wanna cause suffering to his Imperium. I mean Peter fething Turbo prematurely-aged just from fighting the Rangda and he's a primarch.

You free to see him as the bad guy. He does a lot evil gak, like neglecting his kids and banning psykers within his empire. However, it's because of purpose or reason. Doesn't justify it for sure, but it is sure as hell a lot more credible than "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne". The emperor is a utilitarian on steroids. If you no longer serve a purpose or get in his way, the obvious answer to him is, "oh just remove the problem". It's his whole, MO.

It's just how he goes about doing that is utterly inhumane, but at the end of the day; he's also a human to a degree. You can't simply paint any one man as just "evil", just like every Eldar isn't evil for their shenanigans. They all have incredibly evil actions that you can understand them undertaking within the bounds of the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:
Yeah, that one. Particularly the one where planets don't get WAAAGH'd on a daily basis by uncle-mushroom man and his jolly gang of green men. Or annihilated by Eldar for "being in the way or because they'd potentially be a problem later". Or they get turned into puppets by Enslavers. Or where they don't get infested by Hrud. Or get enslaved by the Rangda or whatever else they have in store for you. The one not constantly rife with civil wars and planetary uprisings thinking they can do better than a galaxy-spanning empire.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Emperor wanted to work with the Eldar, but in general treacherous nature doesn't leave way for much negotiation. I mean are you going to negotiate with the guy who just blew up one of your world's because, "he saw in some dream that this world would be a threat later" or powerfist him in the face. I'm choosing powerfist. The Eldar need to stop being arrogant dickheads if they want to open up any room for negotiation first.

So, in short. Yeah, he murders aliens, especially the ones that are downright evil and just wanna cause suffering to his Imperium. I mean Peter fething Turbo prematurely-aged just from fighting the Rangda and he's a primarch.

The problem is that he makes no determination between aliens that are intrinsically harmful (orks etc) and those that aren't. The CWE's penchant for working against the Imperium at times has a lot to do with the Imperium's willingness to genocide innocent xenos, Eldar included. The present-day Imperium is gleefully ignorant of the distinction as well, following his example. Portraying the emperor as justified in his genocidal ambitions is very questionable; your "pretty sure" amounts to "I want the emperor to be justified so I'm making up a situation that justifies him" and doesn't have a basis in the source material.

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy. He does a lot evil gak, like neglecting his kids and banning psykers within his empire. However, it's because of purpose or reason. Doesn't justify it for sure, but it is sure as hell a lot more credible than "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne". The emperor is a utilitarian on steroids. If you no longer serve a purpose or get in his way, the obvious answer to him is, "oh just remove the problem". It's his whole, MO.

The Emperor is not a utilitarian; his treatment of Angron, for example, caused his endeavors great problems, but he was compelled to act like a dick... because he's a dick. There isn't a core purpose or reason behind what he does that has a benign motive. It's just a matter of the tendency for people, especially people with certain personality traits, to ascribe benevolent motives to people with power, even in fiction.

 Abanshee wrote:
It's just how he goes about doing that is utterly inhumane, but at the end of the day; he's also a human to a degree. You can't simply paint any one man as just "evil", just like every Eldar isn't evil for their shenanigans. They all have incredibly evil actions that you can understand them undertaking within the bounds of the setting.

Hold up, in this same post you justified the genocide of the Eldar. And now you're claiming that you can't treat all Eldar as "evil"? What are you getting at?

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Yeah, that one. Particularly the one where planets don't get WAAAGH'd on a daily basis by uncle-mushroom man and his jolly gang of green men. Or annihilated by Eldar for "being in the way or because they'd potentially be a problem later". Or they get turned into puppets by Enslavers. Or where they don't get infested by Hrud. Or get enslaved by the Rangda or whatever else they have in store for you. The one not constantly rife with civil wars and planetary uprisings thinking they can do better than a galaxy-spanning empire.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Emperor wanted to work with the Eldar, but in general treacherous nature doesn't leave way for much negotiation. I mean are you going to negotiate with the guy who just blew up one of your world's because, "he saw in some dream that this world would be a threat later" or powerfist him in the face. I'm choosing powerfist. The Eldar need to stop being arrogant dickheads if they want to open up any room for negotiation first.

So, in short. Yeah, he murders aliens, especially the ones that are downright evil and just wanna cause suffering to his Imperium. I mean Peter fething Turbo prematurely-aged just from fighting the Rangda and he's a primarch.

The problem is that he makes no determination between aliens that are intrinsically harmful (orks etc) and those that aren't. The CWE's penchant for working against the Imperium at times has a lot to do with the Imperium's willingness to genocide innocent xenos, Eldar included. The present-day Imperium is gleefully ignorant of the distinction as well, following his example. Portraying the emperor as justified in his genocidal ambitions is very questionable; your "pretty sure" amounts to "I want the emperor to be justified so I'm making up a situation that justifies him" and doesn't have a basis in the source material.

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy. He does a lot evil gak, like neglecting his kids and banning psykers within his empire. However, it's because of purpose or reason. Doesn't justify it for sure, but it is sure as hell a lot more credible than "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne". The emperor is a utilitarian on steroids. If you no longer serve a purpose or get in his way, the obvious answer to him is, "oh just remove the problem". It's his whole, MO.

The Emperor is not a utilitarian; his treatment of Angron, for example, caused his endeavors great problems, but he was compelled to act like a dick... because he's a dick. There isn't a core purpose or reason behind what he does that has a benign motive. It's just a matter of the tendency for people, especially people with certain personality traits, to ascribe benevolent motives to people with power, even in fiction.

 Abanshee wrote:
It's just how he goes about doing that is utterly inhumane, but at the end of the day; he's also a human to a degree. You can't simply paint any one man as just "evil", just like every Eldar isn't evil for their shenanigans. They all have incredibly evil actions that you can understand them undertaking within the bounds of the setting.

Hold up, in this same post you justified the genocide of the Eldar. And now you're claiming that you can't treat all Eldar as "evil"? What are you getting at?

Bro, that's because almost every alien species is hostile to humans. So, of course there isn't a set distinction when they're killing you all the time, I'd be surprised if he had the time even make one. Also, I really don't care if you find a view I have on a fictional character "questionable". Within the reasoning of the fictional universe it makes plenty of sense to me, when did this become a conversation about our personal morality? My "pretty sure" comes from the fact we don't have a lot of events that happen between the Imperium and CWE during 30k and that modern day humanity (M41) has worked with Eldar already. It's an educated guess.

As, for Angron. I mean what the hell are you supposed to do with that? Other than lock him away or kill him for good. Angron was on borrowed time from the time he left Nuceria anyways (Butcher's nails slowly killing him). I don't think he was trying to go out of his way to be a dick, he just simply didn't even consider Angron in his greater plan. The Emperor didn't do that out of malevolence, he simply doesn't consider things like that. He's very, very single-minded in his goals. Even when it will
shoot him in the foot later.

I'm saying that everything has nuance essentially, you can't simply ascribe a person as evil just on action alone, you have to take into account intent, circumstances, and the history surrounding everyone in this setting. These characters within the bounds of their universe are completely justified in I'd say half of what they do. The rest is bs reasoning, atrocities, and wars fed by lies. To simply label any one thing as good or evil in this setting shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works itself. I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar, especially when they attack you for almost no reason at all (or what a human would attribute as no reason). It's an unfortunate downside of attacking humanity, your entire race is getting the sword (That includes Dark Eldar, Harlequins, and Exodites too). You can understand the reasoning behind an action, but also not agree with it.

 Abanshee wrote:


Bro, that's because almost every alien species is hostile to humans.

You have the cause and effect wrong. Almost every alien species is hostile to humans because the humans are fething nuts. You can go read the material on the Tau if you want to see how a new player on the scene learns very quickly that the Imperium is senselessly genocidal and untrustworthy.

 Abanshee wrote:
Also, I really don't care if you find a view I have on a fictional character "questionable". Within the reasoning of the fictional universe it makes plenty of sense to me, when did this become a conversation about our personal morality?

When you started putting your own moral reasoning front and center. Weird how the Tau can exist just fine without genociding members of other species just for existing.

 Abanshee wrote:
My "pretty sure" comes from the fact we don't have a lot of events that happen between the Imperium and CWE during 30k and that modern day humanity (M41) has worked with Eldar already. It's an educated guess.

Nah, we know even the *Necrons* thought he was an donkey-cave - and they're jerks. Assuming stuff that happened off camera to make him look better is weird.

 Abanshee wrote:

As, for Angron. I mean what the hell are you supposed to do with that? Other than lock him away or kill him for good. Angron was on borrowed time from the time he left Nuceria anyways (Butcher's nails slowly killing him). I don't think he was trying to go out of his way to be a dick, he just simply didn't even consider Angron in his greater plan. The Emperor didn't do that out of malevolence, he simply doesn't consider things like that. He's very, very single-minded in his goals. Even when it will
shoot him in the foot later.

Nah, I'm talking about the part where he didn't let Angron die with his companions, didn't help him defeat the slavers on Nuceria, and instead allied himself with the depraved slave-holding government of the planet. He was cruel and immoral the whole time and expected the veneration due a father for his actions; that's just egomania by any metric. Saying that "he simply doesn't consider things like that," as you do, is just admitting that the Emperor has gak morals.

 Abanshee wrote:
I'm saying that everything has nuance essentially, you can't simply ascribe a person as evil just on action alone, you have to take into account intent, circumstances, and the history surrounding everyone in this setting. These characters within the bounds of their universe are completely justified in I'd say half of what they do. The rest is bs reasoning, atrocities, and wars fed by lies. To simply label any one thing as good or evil in this setting shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works itself. I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar, especially when they attack you for almost no reason at all (or what a human would attribute as no reason). It's an unfortunate downside of attacking humanity, your entire race is getting the sword (That includes Dark Eldar, Harlequins, and Exodites too). You can understand the reasoning behind an action, but also not agree with it.

That doesn't work, because by the same logic everyone else is morally justified in annihilating humanity. Two groups being morally justified in annihilating each other is not exactly a cogent moral stance.

And no, there's nothing wrong with casting moral judgment on characters or elements within the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy.

Because he is. This is a core point of the setting. Seriously, your apologism for the genocidal hyper-fascist theocracy is getting kind of disturbing.

However thinking about it knowledge of chaos still must probably does corrupt in a logical and normal fashion because if you hear about something that may make you king of your world and are a peasant chances are you'll take it, plus the corrupting influence of tainted object through magic/possession. The knowledge itself does not corrupt outirght but the magic of the object you use to gain said knowledge can.

So I'll mitigate my view a bit as knowledge is then stated not to have outright corrupting abilities by itself, but still, almost mechanically, chaos corruption will probably corrupt anyway.

In which case, suppressing knowledge of chaos makes sense. But it is an ideology driven suboptimal way of of doing it with horrific results in the end.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
However thinking about it knowledge of chaos still must probably does corrupt in a logical and normal fashion because if you hear about something that may make you king of your world and are a peasant chances are you'll take it, plus the corrupting influence of tainted object through magic/possession. The knowledge itself does not corrupt outirght but the magic of the object you use to gain said knowledge can.

So I'll mitigate my view a bit as knowledge is then stated not to have outright corrupting abilities by itself, but still, almost mechanically, chaos corruption will probably corrupt anyway.

In which case, suppressing knowledge of chaos makes sense. But it is an ideology driven suboptimal way of of doing it with horrific results in the end.

No, the smart way to deal with it is to tell everyone about Chaos, show them the consequences of interacting with the warp without proper precautions, and warn them about the dangers. That seems to work; the shamanic traditions of Fenris and Chogoris, as well as the traditions of the Exodites, seem to function well enough.

"Tainted objects" are a whole different sort of thing. I think the issue is the emperor didn't want to have to explain how Chaos feeds off of negative emotions, because then he'd be stuck having to justify all the genocide and tyranny when it just makes Chaos stronger, and he seemed to treat genocide and tyranny as categorical imperatives.

It ay be smarter but as we stated the imperium is paralysed with fear and wrong belief, so as far as the setting goes, which is what we discuss, their behavior is not the best choice but it fits its context.

Knowing how bad the warp is is no defense in and of itself, inquisitors who fall know many things and still can fall. Don't forget chaos entities are smart and subtle and can even corrupt strong willed humans by luring them while they don't even realise it. So saying telling every one is the solution is not so obvious.

People would want to know more. They'd want to see if the claims are right. If they aren't stronger than those who failed and master this force. That's a leap of logic we can make for human characters assuming they are quite still like us. It could totally go wrong.

Don't get me wrong, alternate or further scenarios to think about the lore is absolutly fine, but as it is a fictional setting we can't know for sure, only make leaps of logic from what is written at the moment.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy.

Because he is. This is a core point of the setting. Seriously, your apologism for the genocidal hyper-fascist theocracy is getting kind of disturbing.

Apologism? You mean my like of the character is disturbing? Am I on trial, Inquisitor?