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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Weird insistence on putting words in my mouth.

Everyone is awful in their own ways.

Avoiding the question makes it look like you're upset at what the answer would be. Do you think the Imperium is morally worse than the Tau or not?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

I'd disagree in that Orks choose to be cruel to their captives. Indifference is bad, active cruelty is worse.

They can't control the urge to fight but they find it funny to feed things to squigs or to put a human in a cage and use it for target "practice".

 Abanshee wrote:
Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

No, it's a great argument. Some things are less evil than others. The Tau are functionally a totalitarian oligarchy; it's still a morally better system than the Imperium has. The Tau give you that choice, they also don't force people to fight. The Imperium just kills aliens it finds - which is much worse. Civilian humans in Tau space are treated better than in the Imperium, the lore is consistent on this.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

The Dark Eldar are about as bad as the Imperium. The Imperium thrives off of torture, genocide, murder, and corruption - and they don't even get anything tangible out of it like the DE do! I'd suggest reading Redemption Corps if you want a taste of how the Sororitas are torture-happy psychopaths, just with lower tech and less creativity than the Drukhari.

And the DE are meaningless to the core discussion, which is that CWE are *not* as bad as you are claiming - they are made up of the Eldar who *left* rather than be involved in Slaanesh's birth. Interesting that you think they're still culpable for that - like collective guilt. But only one way.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

No. You haven't provided any evidence of that other than stating you *wish* they were. Which says more about you than the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

When their disagreement is explicitly based on ignoring the setting material in favor of what they already wanted, yeah.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

They’re arguably unique in not being malevolent*, as they don’t get that what’s a good time for them is not a good time for everyone else, but they’re still not justified either

And they’re still pretty supremacist, given they penchant for purging things which they don’t consider to be sufficiently ’orky’.

Yeah they were created as a weapon, but they’re a pretty horrific one when you think about it.


*(though certain daemons have a similar mentality)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

I mean they are literally as evil as a nuclear bomb is. It's just these nukes are british, are utterly barbaric, and quite literally wanna rip off your arms, because it'd be funny. Their the only faction that is downright honest about their intentions save the
Dark Eldar and Tyranids. So, I second the belief, Orks are the only morally correct race. Gork and Mork demand it.

 Abanshee wrote:
I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

No you wouldn't.

 Abanshee wrote:


Nah, if you're gonna assume straight out the gate that I'm an idiot then what's the point of even wasting the time to type?

I didn't assume you were an idiot, I'm in the process of finding out that you're wrong about a lot of this stuff.

 Abanshee wrote:
You've gone in circles and this discussion has become stale as feth. Also, the US certainly acted in a genocidal manner towards the Japanese. They put their own citizens in fething camps dude. I love how you'll defend space elves all day, but justify incinerating a gak ton of Japanese civilians. Yet, you get mad when one of us call for the death of all Orks, lol.

The US treated the Japanese far better than the Japanese treated the Filipinos or Chinese. There are degrees here.

 Abanshee wrote:
Let me put this as nicely as I can muster. You seem more interested in being morally right within the laws of a fictional universe and scoring "gotcha points" than actually discussing anything, considering how far the conversation has devolved from the original topic.

You seem to be unwilling to consider an outcome where you are factually wrong to be acceptable. Just admit that your perception of the source material was wrong and then we can move on. We've discussed it plenty, and you've repeatedly been shown to be incorrect or misinformed.

 Abanshee wrote:

I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

Irrelevant to the point, which is that the Imperium treats humans far worse than the Tau do.

Is there any info on whether orks are capable of going against their nature at all? Could they, in theory, evolve on a societal and philosophical level or are they effectively biologically incapable to do so?

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Eldar see us as worse than monkeys. ‘Mon Keigh’ is obviously an IRL pun, but in universe means something close to ‘pests who need to be exterminated’.

They don’t really see any other race as people, and would happily exterminate all of them that get in their way if they could.

This is incorrect. There are groups who do (Frozen Stars etc) but they're explicitly an anomaly and many of the other Aeldari groups don't get along with them and think they're psychos.

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

No, it's a great argument. Some things are less evil than others. The Tau are functionally a totalitarian oligarchy; it's still a morally better system than the Imperium has. The Tau give you that choice, they also don't force people to fight. The Imperium just kills aliens it finds - which is much worse. Civilian humans in Tau space are treated better than in the Imperium, the lore is consistent on this.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

The Dark Eldar are about as bad as the Imperium. The Imperium thrives off of torture, genocide, murder, and corruption - and they don't even get anything tangible out of it like the DE do! I'd suggest reading Redemption Corps if you want a taste of how the Sororitas are torture-happy psychopaths, just with lower tech and less creativity than the Drukhari.

And the DE are meaningless to the core discussion, which is that CWE are *not* as bad as you are claiming - they are made up of the Eldar who *left* rather than be involved in Slaanesh's birth. Interesting that you think they're still culpable for that - like collective guilt. But only one way.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

No. You haven't provided any evidence of that other than stating you *wish* they were. Which says more about you than the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

When their disagreement is explicitly based on ignoring the setting material in favor of what they already wanted, yeah.

I never wished anything, I simply stated "I thought that the Emperor worked with the Eldar" somewhere in text (just couldn't remember where). Also, the Dark Eldar are still worse than the Imperium they could become like their craftworld brothers, but just refuse to because they actively benefit from a society of suffering. Just because your doing it for a reason, doesn't mean your methods are humane at all. Anyways, this has been going on for a while now, so I'm going to politely end it here.

You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

 BertBert wrote:
Is there any info on whether orks are capable of going against their nature at all? Could they, in theory, evolve on a societal and philosophical level or are they effectively biologically incapable to do so?

Tricky one. There’s no “primary source” I can think of. The closest is the original Xenology Book, which in an inherently uncertain canon is super uncertain canon? It’s noted Orks kept in isolation wither and die. They need Boyz around them. And the more Boyz, the fightier they become.

It’s widely speculated that they’re an ancient species. Certainly they were spread far and wide across the Galaxy before man got out his cradle. Which is strongly suggestive they either can’t, or have zero interest in, changing their ways.

 BertBert wrote:
Is there any info on whether orks are capable of going against their nature at all? Could they, in theory, evolve on a societal and philosophical level or are they effectively biologically incapable to do so?

They evolved in the early M30s which lead to the War of the Beast. The lower tiers were mostly the same but the higher up the chain the more intelligent the Orks got. They even sent "negotiators" to Terra when they demonstrated their power by teleporting an Attack Moon over the cradle of mankind and offered the Imperium submission under their Ork overlords as slaves.

 Abanshee wrote:


I never wished anything, I simply stated "I thought that the Emperor worked with the Eldar" somewhere in text (just couldn't remember where).

You pulled it out of thin air as a justification for why the Emperor wasn't a genocidal maniac; that's where the "wish" comes in.

 Abanshee wrote:

Also, the Dark Eldar are still worse than the Imperium they could become like their craftworld brothers, but just refuse to because they actively benefit from a society of suffering.

Irrelevant to the CWE. Also irrelevant for the Tau; I noticed you abandoned that line of conversation because it was starting to disprove what you were claiming.

 Abanshee wrote:
Just because your doing it for a reason, doesn't mean your methods are humane at all. Anyways, this has been going on for a while now, so I'm going to politely end it here.

You have not been polite at all.

 Abanshee wrote:
You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

The difference is only one of us is right, and it's me. The Tau are rough but the Imperium is worse.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

They’re arguably unique in not being malevolent*, as they don’t get that what’s a good time for them is not a good time for everyone else, but they’re still not justified either

And they’re still pretty supremacist, given they penchant for purging things which they don’t consider to be sufficiently ’orky’.

Yeah they were created as a weapon, but they’re a pretty horrific one when you think about it.


*(though certain daemons have a similar mentality)

Thing is? They take slaves and work them beyond the point of endurance again not from malevolence, but because even a Weedy Grot is more resilient than a human. That to me strongly suggests it just doesn’t occur to them that slightly less demanding treatment might gain better results. They may only starve such a captive populace because they know starving humans will fight each other. And every Ork knows the more you fight, the stronger you get. So there’s a typically demented (by our standards alone) logic that the Orks may in fact be trying to get stronger slaves, but can’t comprehend, or care, that it’s never going to work.

 Abanshee wrote:
You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

Nobody here has said that xenos did nothing wrong, stop making straw man arguments. Being less evil than the Imperium is not the same as not being evil and if you can't see the difference between the Tau and the Imperium you seriously need to ask some questions about your own morality.


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Hecaton wrote:
You have not been polite at all.

Which should surprise nobody, given this is someone who brags about "pissing off dakkadakka moderators and being a general nuisance" and posted a whole wall of text insulting all guard players because a TFG in their group played guard one time. How they haven't been banned yet for their repeated and blatant rule violations is baffling.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Which should surprise nobody, given this is someone who brags about "pissing off dakkadakka moderators and being a general nuisance" and posted a whole wall of text insulting all guard players because a TFG in their group played guard one time. How they haven't been banned yet for their repeated and blatant rule violations is baffling.

Or even given a "time out" like has happened to me.

I know on the 40klore subreddit the head mod was banning people who said similar things about the Imperium, anybody showing proof of the infanticide, etc. But was being very sneaky about it, because they didn't want the smoke of being seen to take sides. But sometimes you get a situation like that.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

Nobody here has said that xenos did nothing wrong, stop making straw man arguments. Being less evil than the Imperium is not the same as not being evil and if you can't see the difference between the Tau and the Imperium you seriously need to ask some questions about your own morality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
You have not been polite at all.

Which should surprise nobody, given this is someone who brags about "pissing off dakkadakka moderators and being a general nuisance" and posted a whole wall of text insulting all guard players because a TFG in their group played guard one time. How they haven't been banned yet for their repeated and blatant rule violations is baffling.

Don't forget "proudly since 2015". I love being evil to the mods, they enjoy punishing me. Mutual benefit, my man.

Hecaton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Eldar see us as worse than monkeys. ‘Mon Keigh’ is obviously an IRL pun, but in universe means something close to ‘pests who need to be exterminated’.

They don’t really see any other race as people, and would happily exterminate all of them that get in their way if they could.

This is incorrect. There are groups who do (Frozen Stars etc) but they're explicitly an anomaly and many of the other Aeldari groups don't get along with them and think they're psychos.

It’s literally what the term means in universe. It’s defined in Eldar codicies amongst other places.

There’s plenty of monologues from individual Eldar from mainstream Craftworlds about wanting to wipe out various other species about the place as well.

Yes, most Eldar don’t go around actively trying to genocide everyone, but that has very little to do with any moral concerns (only other Eldar are people) and far more to do with the fact that it is objectively stupid for them to try since they’re by no means powerful enough to do it these days and if they attract too much attention or annoy the likes of the Imperium too much then they may well bite off more than they can chew (and the Imperium has destroyed Craftworlds before which did just that).

So yeah, obviously most Eldar don’t get on with the nutters who actually do try and exterminate everyone, but it’s because they’re dangerously stupid rather than because of any disagreement with other races being killed per se.

Doesn’t mean they don’t want to and wouldn’t if it were actually practicable and cost effective to do so (which it obviously is not).

Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

Mainly because the Imperium feeds Chaos something crazy due to their ignorance, tyranny, etc and thus getting rid of it somehow would make things easier for everyone else. The Imperium isn't a bulwark against anything, it just makes everyone's lives worse (whether you're inside it or outside).


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Lord Zarkov wrote:

It’s literally what the term means in universe. It’s defined in Eldar codicies amongst other places.

Wrong. It's based on a term for a cannibalistic and tyrannical species the Eldar encountered long ago. And given the Imperium's use of corpse starch, well... if the shoe fits...

Lord Zarkov wrote:
There’s plenty of monologues from individual Eldar from mainstream Craftworlds about wanting to wipe out various other species about the place as well.

There's more about them wishing the humans just weren't so damn short-sighted.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Yes, most Eldar don’t go around actively trying to genocide everyone, but that has very little to do with any moral concerns (only other Eldar are people) and far more to do with the fact that it is objectively stupid for them to try since they’re by no means powerful enough to do it these days and if they attract too much attention or annoy the likes of the Imperium too much then they may well bite off more than they can chew (and the Imperium has destroyed Craftworlds before which did just that).

The Imperium doesn't have what it takes to destroy most Eldar craftworlds. And yes, it does have to do with moral concerns; the Eldar are not genocidal like the Imperium is, full stop. The Imperium is not all-powerful; it is woefully inefficient and corrupt. It has a lot more on its plate right now if the Eldar wanted to attack, but the Eldar aren't really into doing that for no reason.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
So yeah, obviously most Eldar don’t get on with the nutters who actually do try and exterminate everyone, but it’s because they’re dangerously stupid rather than because of any disagreement with other races being killed per se.

You haven't proven that, and in fact the opposite is true.

I disagree.

If the Imperium fell? That’s likely doom for the Craftworlders, as they’ve nothing like the numbers to fend off Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and a surge in open chaos worship as formerly Imperial worlds devolve into utter anarchy.

The Imperium is by no means something anyone would want to prop up if there was literally any other choice - but for the Eldar? I’d argue that’s exactly the case they’re dealing with. The Imperium is a threat to them. Of course it is. And there’s no doubt the Imperium would wipe out the Eldar without batting an eyelid if it could. But right now? It can’t spare the man power to go hunting down the Craftworlds, or Commoragh.

So you keep out the way as best you can. You nudge the strands of fate to aid their efforts in striking chaos, and take a more active role when necessary. But for now? The useful bulwark it remains.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

Indeed!

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

Mainly because the Imperium feeds Chaos something crazy due to their ignorance, tyranny, etc and thus getting rid of it somehow would make things easier for everyone else. The Imperium isn't a bulwark against anything, it just makes everyone's lives worse (whether you're inside it or outside).

From an Eldar perspective, they’re a lot easier to manipulate diplomatically than a lot of other enemies, are handy meat shields, and they quite objectively keep the orks in check. Though I’m sure the Eldar have equally ferocious theoretical debates about whether Imperium or Orks are the least worst (not that they actually have the ability to choose either).

Tbh having both Imperium and Orks existing and fighting each other down is probably where the Eldar want things…

On manipulating Orks vs Imperium?

Kind of the difference between cats and dogs. You can get a cat to do what you want. But it’s much easier with our idiot, fluffy, waggy tailed furry friends!

Hecaton wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

It’s literally what the term means in universe. It’s defined in Eldar codicies amongst other places.

Wrong. It's based on a term for a cannibalistic and tyrannical species the Eldar encountered long ago. And given the Imperium's use of corpse starch, well... if the shoe fits...

Lord Zarkov wrote:
There’s plenty of monologues from individual Eldar from mainstream Craftworlds about wanting to wipe out various other species about the place as well.

There's more about them wishing the humans just weren't so damn short-sighted.

It’s quite explicitly both those things. It’s based on a term for a race they did in fact wipe out in the past, and it’s got explicit overtones of ‘needing to be exterminated’. The sources are very clear on these.

And no, they’re not just about wishing humans weren’t short sighted (and not just humans). There’s some pretty explicit passages about them wishing they could wipe out humans and other races they see as pests. They were especially prevalent in 3rd Ed (when GW was worried people were seeing Eldar as ‘good guys’) but still occur more recently as well.

Hecaton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Yes, most Eldar don’t go around actively trying to genocide everyone, but that has very little to do with any moral concerns (only other Eldar are people) and far more to do with the fact that it is objectively stupid for them to try since they’re by no means powerful enough to do it these days and if they attract too much attention or annoy the likes of the Imperium too much then they may well bite off more than they can chew (and the Imperium has destroyed Craftworlds before which did just that).

The Imperium doesn't have what it takes to destroy most Eldar craftworlds. And yes, it does have to do with moral concerns; the Eldar are not genocidal like the Imperium is, full stop. The Imperium is not all-powerful; it is woefully inefficient and corrupt. It has a lot more on its plate right now if the Eldar wanted to attack, but the Eldar aren't really into doing that for no reason.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
So yeah, obviously most Eldar don’t get on with the nutters who actually do try and exterminate everyone, but it’s because they’re dangerously stupid rather than because of any disagreement with other races being killed per se.

You haven't proven that, and in fact the opposite is true.

MDG has it right. It’s a risk balance case. On all sides.

The Imperium is not going to make a particular effort to go hunting down all the Craftworlds because it’s not worth it. The Imperium has frankly bigger fish to fry and the Eldar are much more likely to help it out than most of its other enemies. And if it did really try and destroy the Eldar it’d take substantial, potentially terminal, losses from its other enemies. So it doesn’t try.

But where the Eldar have been too much of a problem compared to other threats the Imperium has and does focus more attention on crushing them. They have destroyed weaker Craftworlds and wiped out particularly problematic Corsair havens and they have caused significant damage to some major Craftworlds.

Similarly the Eldar do not have anywhere near the firepower needed to destroy the Imperium and would be crushed if they tried (though they might succeed in a mutual kill by causing it to be overrun by other enemies, though that’s not a good outcome for the Eldar). Some Eldar factions did try and help the Imperium to destroy itself during the Heresy, but that did not go brilliantly well. They can play also the Imperium off against their other enemies and even team up sometimes against greater threats, which is of some use.

All in all the ALARP position of the Eldar and the Imperium vis a vis the other is essentially the status quo, as much as both would wish the other didn’t exist.

 Gert wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

I'd disagree in that Orks choose to be cruel to their captives. Indifference is bad, active cruelty is worse.

They can't control the urge to fight but they find it funny to feed things to squigs or to put a human in a cage and use it for target "practice".

Sorry dude, missed this post.

That’s a fair point, but again in their society? Harsh treatment makes you dead or makes you stronger. So they’re used to quite different outcomes from say, regular bearings, pit fights etc. I mean, when you can just go and get your arm stapled back on (or indeed, any Ork arm) if things get a bit too rough, it’s going to give you a very different world view to taking the arms off other, less robust species.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I disagree.

If the Imperium fell? That’s likely doom for the Craftworlders, as they’ve nothing like the numbers to fend off Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and a surge in open chaos worship as formerly Imperial worlds devolve into utter anarchy.

Nah. The Imperium is not a net benefit to the CWE. There'd be a new set of problems, sure, but overall not having the Imperium wanting to kill you would help. Also, there's probably be a lot *less* Chaos worship as you wouldn't have the Imperium driving people towards it.

It smacks too much of "Everyone else should be *grateful* the Imperium is around, and owes them a debt." Which isn't true lol.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


It’s quite explicitly both those things. It’s based on a term for a race they did in fact wipe out in the past, and it’s got explicit overtones of ‘needing to be exterminated’. The sources are very clear on these.

I'm sure you've got a citation on that, rather than just wishful thinking? The 3e Eldar codex was the source I used.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

And no, they’re not just about wishing humans weren’t short sighted (and not just humans). There’s some pretty explicit passages about them wishing they could wipe out humans and other races they see as pests. They were especially prevalent in 3rd Ed (when GW was worried people were seeing Eldar as ‘good guys’) but still occur more recently as well.

For specific Eldar, sure. Not for CWE as a whole. I'm guessing you're imagining things to try to find ways to justify the Imperium's psychotic genocidal mannerisms.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


MDG has it right. It’s a risk balance case. On all sides.

Nope. The Imperium is not rational; it makes bad decisions constantly because they worship ignorance. The Imperium *has* made efforts to go hunting down Craftworlds, some successful, some unsuccessful.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
But where the Eldar have been too much of a problem compared to other threats the Imperium has and does focus more attention on crushing them. They have destroyed weaker Craftworlds and wiped out particularly problematic Corsair havens and they have caused significant damage to some major Craftworlds.

They've also genocided Exodites who weren't hurting anyone just because they could. The Imperium is a mad dog, not a rational actor.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Some Eldar factions did try and help the Imperium to destroy itself during the Heresy, but that did not go brilliantly well.

Let's clarify that that's after the Imperium showed them a genocidal amount of danger. And they know the emperor's a murderous prick and he's running that show.

Regardless, though, the Imperium is not the same thing as humanity - the Eldar don't want to exterminate humanity, they just want the Imperium to go away and stop trying to murder them, but are dealing with the reality of the situation.

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I disagree.

If the Imperium fell? That’s likely doom for the Craftworlders, as they’ve nothing like the numbers to fend off Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and a surge in open chaos worship as formerly Imperial worlds devolve into utter anarchy.

Nah. The Imperium is not a net benefit to the CWE. There'd be a new set of problems, sure, but overall not having the Imperium wanting to kill you would help. Also, there's probably be a lot *less* Chaos worship as you wouldn't have the Imperium driving people towards it.

It smacks too much of "Everyone else should be *grateful* the Imperium is around, and owes them a debt." Which isn't true lol.

If the Imperium collapsed I don't think many worlds would become utopias. Indeed many worlds likely rely heavily on food and resources being moved within the Imperium. Take away the assurance of it all being one entity and fragment it into individual sectors which have zero fear of a group of Marines/Inquisition or other Imperial body appearing from the Warp and you could easily find that many systems become far more war torn or have to toil like crazy under the yoke of labour to afford extortionate and unregulated trade deals.

With no black ships taking psychers to the Emperor nor Inquisition you could easily find that whilst there'd be a period of calm; there'd quickly be an ever growing rise of warp incidents. Just with zero centralised coordinated response. Don't forget many people, even up to governors don't really know much about the Warp. So many of them could easily fall prey to it without even a hint of what it might mean.


This isn't to say that the Imperium is a Paragon of Virtue or anything; but the sheer size and logistical setup of it (even broken and faltering as it is) is still a vast power that lets it project its influence outside of itself and protect itself.


Take all that away and other Xenos would rise up fast and you'd have just as much if not more war. With a big downside that you'd lose one of the biggest forces fighting against other major forces. Craftworlders would likely have ot hide even more because they lack the numbers. They might have to rely on manipulating a much wider range of species to protect themselves instead of one Imperium and humans.



The Imperium is a huge danger, but the fact that the Eldar haven't sought to destroy it and have indeed helped to maintain even the Emperor, suggests that they realise that right now, in the here and now of the setting, its better to have the danger of the united Imperium than a fragmented human race warring with itself and everyone and offering zero buffer to the likes of Ork Waarghs or the insane threat of the Tyranids; let alone a Chaos Crusade





Who know though; if the Imperium fell perhaps it would be the kick that caused it to shed a lot of useless administrative and religious barriers. Falling could cause systems to push hard for technological superiority and suddenly they'd have an explosion of technological gain and you end up with a new Crusade of sorts. One where the new Imperium has a single military force united under one banner; where they push new tech; where they use everything they have at their best. Suddenly you could have an even more dangerous group of humans who are projecting their influence and not in-fighting nor crippling themselves with religious elements or strange devotions or even just things like a fear of xenotech.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry dude, missed this post.

That’s a fair point, but again in their society? Harsh treatment makes you dead or makes you stronger. So they’re used to quite different outcomes from say, regular bearings, pit fights etc. I mean, when you can just go and get your arm stapled back on (or indeed, any Ork arm) if things get a bit too rough, it’s going to give you a very different world view to taking the arms off other, less robust species.

In Ork society, sure but Ork society only applies to Orks. They know humans are fragile beings compared to themselves but they don't care, in fact, they find it hilarious and a source of entertainment in the same way people torture ants.
They also very much practice racial superiority in their culture even if it is as simple as "Orks is best cos Orks is best". A Space Marine might be a good scrap but in the end, it's not an Ork and is therefore inferior.

Yes and no.

They do know regular ‘umies are weedy, but Beaky Boyz put up a better fight. But they’re all still fair game to the Boyz.

My argument here is they just don’t comprehend that other species aren’t as easily patched up as Orks.

Consider. Whilst by no means guaranteed, a given Boy can have all their limbs, then their head chopped off, and have at least some chance of being put back together, no worse for wear. In fact, arguably better for the wear.

Humans can probably survive a single limb being removed. The more violent that removal the lower the chance of said survival due to shock and blood loss and that. But lop our bonce off? And that’s it. We’ve maybe a handful of minutes thinking “oh, arses, that’s me dead then” before we pass.

Orks lack that perspective. All they know, all they care about, is Ork Kultur. So for them, the havoc and suffering they wreak on other species just doesn’t register.

I'd argue they very much do understand how fragile humans are. Orks aren't stupid (well they are but not that stupid) and they do understand that other species are different from them.
Orks have an immense story culture that prepares Boyz for what they might fight even if all the stories end with "But Orks are better so we'll win anyway". They know the Aeldari are tricksy wizard types and that humans are weedy but gutsy and dangerous in numbers. It's almost like a form of genetic memory.

Orks don't care about other cultures but they do care how the enemy fights and what to look out for.