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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Until your planet rejects The Greater Good. Then you’re absolutely fair game.

Sure. Still makes them better, morally, than the Imperium.

Deadnight wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
The point is that the Tau have managed to integrate several different species and civilizations, including humans, into their empire.

Every xenos is hostile to the IoM because the IoM is hostile to every xenos.

And my point was plenty xenos are just as bad and were they in ascendancy in the galaxy (arguably orks already are in ascendancy) you'd see no difference in the reality on the ground.

Tau have integrated some xenos and some humans. Others they exterminate on sight eg orks.

Humans too are often not regarded as valuable - wasn't there that short story a while back where the tau turned on their human allies for being too superstitious?

Every faction is monstrous, yes.
Some are moreso than others.

Don’t forget the Eldar will happily cause, or carefully fail to prevent, the deaths of billions of other species to spare even a single Eldar life.

They’re not a benevolent species at all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don’t forget the Eldar will happily cause, or carefully fail to prevent, the deaths of billions of other species to spare even a single Eldar life.

They’re not a benevolent species at all.

That's an exaggeration; there's a lot of variance within the Eldar. Let's not forget, as well, that the Imperium would gladly sacrifice human lives to kill aliens. That's a higher level of evil.

But it remains true.

Eldar don’t see any other species as an equal. Right now? The Imperium is a useful lumbering beast they can coax into sorting out other threats, whilst being comparatively easy to dodge.

Deadnight wrote:
This is 40k, not star trek. Almost every alien species is hostile, full stop. That's part of what makes 40k, well, 40k.

Even if humans weren't around, the likes of the rangdan, slaugh, hrud, orks and any other number of alien races would be off doing horrible things to each other as a matter of course anyway. Humans are just one more source of food.

As to the tau - I mean, from the imperials point of view, since their failure to exterminate the primal tau and since they have since rose to prominence, how many millions of the imperiums soldiers and hundreds of worlds/ billions of their citizens have been lost to wars against them in the Eastern fringe? From the imperial point of view the current situation with them would justify their outlook that had the extermination been done right, they would be in a better place now.

And there were other races that were entirely peaceful or could have just existed if the Imperium wasn't hell-bent on its manifest destiny. Hell, the Imperium couldn't even have human empires existing not under its thumb and it brutally conquered those who fought against it.
The foe the Imperium most often fought during the Crusade was its own kind and they had to be human "enough" or they got wiped out as well. The Imperial Fists found a world that was willing to join the Imperium peacefully and openly but because they were just a little bit too mutated, they were destroyed. These were people that had survived the Long Night and welcomed the Imperium with open arms, but instead of helping them, the Emperor sentenced them to death by his laws and rules.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But it remains true.

No it doesn't. You're just making stuff up to avoid confronting the fact that the Imperium is morally bankrupt compared to CWE, Tau, etc.

Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

Duh, everyone knows that criticism of One Thing means unequivocal support of the Other Thing.

Discussions seem a little heated over whether or not each faction in 40k are terrible.

Orks and Tyranids are arguably the closest to “innocent” as 40K gets.

For Orks? Their entire species accepts Might Makes Right. Their pecking order just is. Whilst no Grot will ever ascend to Warboss, Nob etc, there’s nothing else in their society actively preventing them going about their wretched little lives. Orks don’t forbid Grots from commerce or even property ownership. Nor are they particularly forced to hang around The Boyz.

To Orks, violence is all consuming. It’s what they do. It likely doesn’t occur to them that other species don’t enjoy it so much, because the majority of their interactions with other species involve some kind of fight - even if by Orks standards it’s not a terribly satisfying scrap.

Scant comfort if your world is be assaulted of course. But their actions aren’t borne out of malice or even evil. It’s literally just their nature, and one they’re compelled to follow.

I don't particularly agree.

Orks still partake in nasty acts. Torture, slavery and so on. Grots are mistreated, because they're small and orks can mistreat them.

Tyranids it's a little harder to pinpoint where I feel their malice is. Somewhere around whatever is directing the Hive Mind. Norn Queens or whatever are aware of the powers of fear and discord on sentient minds. It's why they created the Parasite of Mortrex, Lictors, The Swarmlord, Old One Eye, etc. OOE isn't a perfectly efficient creature, but it's well known in the Imperium. It knows how to use fear and terror.

Are they as horrible as Chaos, the Imperium, or any flavor of Eldar? No. But they would still sooner see the universe be only made up of themselves, just the same as the rest.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Everyone is terrible. But you don't align to my specific interpretation of the scale at which everyone is awful, so I shall browbeat you until you agree with me.

Hecaton wrote:


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Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

If your subjects are being killed for crimes their future selves, or children might commit, unprovably, because some priesthood claim to see the future, then no that's not really allowed in my empire or outside of it. They would, and should be eliminated, at least until the hallucination induced murder stops but they're low iq Eldar, it won't stop. So no harm in assisting in their decline.

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

No I’m not. I’m throwing a poor light on Tau and CWE, and have said nuffink about The Imperium? Like. At all. I’ve neither justified nor attempted to decry The Imperium’s approach to anything?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

If your subjects are being killed for crimes their future selves, or children might commit, unprovably, because some priesthood claim to see the future, then no that's not really allowed in my empire or outside of it. They would, and should be eliminated, at least until the hallucination induced murder stops but they're low iq Eldar, it won't stop. So no harm in assisting in their decline.

Eldar Precognition isn’t hallucination. Nor can they ever truly guarantee an outcome. What they can do is Dr Strange it, to see how different actions in the now might shift the threads of fate in the future, and go for the best, or “least bad” action. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread (at least I think it was this one) it’s far from a precise science. Indeed, at the planning stage you have a council of seers to agree on a course of action collectively. This is why they may commit to seemingly one-sided battle where they get flattened. Because it’s been scryed (scried?) that the 100 lost today, will spare 10,000 tomorrow. One reason for such an action might be to nudge an Imperial World on to a war footing, just in time for an Orky Hulk and it’s fleets to tip out of the Warp spoiling for a fight. Already being on a war footing, The Imperium is quicker to respond and does more damage, maybe even the difference of taking the Space Hulk entirely off the galactic board.

It’s not that far off a Farmer having his herd put down and burned to prevent a coming disease spreading, knowing that the loss today ensures a productive farming future, because whichever manky disease is no longer able to easily spread.

Would also like to point out that the Imperium started killing Aeldari long before shenanigans like that were ever discovered.

It's interesting that all the justification for state enforced genocide comes from purely the M41 perspective when the Imperium was doing it in M30.

Oh I’m not defending any party here. Except maybe Orks and Nids who I still don’t consider to be evil by their own standards. Humans and Eldar could choose to share the Galaxy and its resources. As could Tau and Necrons.

But Orks and Nids? Yeah not at all. Yes both absolutely cause untold suffering, but It’s Nothing Personal. I mean, when it comes to Orks? If you as a Weedy ‘Umie killed an Ork in HTH? His mates would give you a drubbing not in vengeance or grief, but to prove they’re ‘Arder than you, and even then they’re doing that on instinct more than anything.

Heck, if you killed the Nob? The Boy that kills you likely becomes the Next Nob, by dint of killing the thing that killed the boss.

Orks have no choice but to fight, because it’s so deeply ingrained into them that they need it to thrive and survive.

 Thadin wrote:
I don't particularly agree.

Orks still partake in nasty acts. Torture, slavery and so on. Grots are mistreated, because they're small and orks can mistreat them.

Tyranids it's a little harder to pinpoint where I feel their malice is. Somewhere around whatever is directing the Hive Mind. Norn Queens or whatever are aware of the powers of fear and discord on sentient minds. It's why they created the Parasite of Mortrex, Lictors, The Swarmlord, Old One Eye, etc. OOE isn't a perfectly efficient creature, but it's well known in the Imperium. It knows how to use fear and terror.

Are they as horrible as Chaos, the Imperium, or any flavor of Eldar? No. But they would still sooner see the universe be only made up of themselves, just the same as the rest.

I'd put a difference on the ork perpetrating of nasty acts, to the extent that in my view they don't have reason to do it, they just do. I don't know if i'm clear on my thought, but they aren't malicious or perverse per say. Being a simple tool of war with a violent culture engrained into them for war, they don't theorise or think much about the consequences of their acts, about good and bad anyway. They live the life they were made for.

Not that it makes them good at all, but I tend to consider them with that tiny detail. Bad, excessively violent and nasty, but not malicious. WHich makes a niche of them amonsgt most other species and I like that view because it is ironic that the worst barbarians of the galaxy might in fact not be the worst pals at heart.

As the Eldar view snippet background thing suggests? Orks are successful because of their kultur.

Ulthan The Perverse wrote:The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude

It’s straightforward. They’re unified behind it. They’re just out to have a good time, and they seemingly genuinely can’t comprehend it’s not an equally good time for everyone else involved.




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And we also need to consider the League’s of Votann.

Sure, for the most part they’ll give the inhabitants of any planet they want to strip mine the choice and opportunity to evacuate. But if you can’t or won’t? Tough, because just like the KLF told Tammy Wynette? Better not stop them ‘cause they’re coming through.

Swastakowey wrote:

If your subjects are being killed for crimes their future selves, or children might commit, unprovably, because some priesthood claim to see the future, then no that's not really allowed in my empire or outside of it. They would, and should be eliminated, at least until the hallucination induced murder stops but they're low iq Eldar, it won't stop. So no harm in assisting in their decline.

So you're against Eldrad trying to kill Abaddon immediately prior to the 13th Black Crusade?


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No I’m not. I’m throwing a poor light on Tau and CWE, and have said nuffink about The Imperium? Like. At all. I’ve neither justified nor attempted to decry The Imperium’s approach to anything?

You should do a better job of understanding the context, then. When someone's saying "The Imperium sucks compared to the Tau and CWE!" and you say "The Tau and CWE are terrible!" without saying anything about the Imperium you're implying that you think the initial comparison is wrong. Do you?

Weird insistence on putting words in my mouth.

Everyone is awful in their own ways.


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Except the Orks.

Considering how long Doc's been on this train I think he's got a some understanding of the lore and you can't "blame him for having been infected by unholy lore of youtube"

I don’t think he’s accusing me of that. I think this is just a failure to communicate.

Easily done after a few pages of hot takes, forgetting who said what and when.

No, don't worry, he was accusing me of that, but the reply in essence he made was pretty much the same, that's why I said that Doc!

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more.

Lolwut. Being forced to serve the Tau (which, by all lore accounts, is like having to take an Amazon warehouse job and is far better than life in an Imperial hive city) is just as bad as being exterminated by the Imperium? Seriously?

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:


Take a drink every time someone assumes you haven't read something. I'd be suffering from liver failure, lol!

Didn't answer my question. I guess you really *don't* know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abanshee wrote:

Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

The United States was not genocidal towards the Japanese just for existing. That's the difference. The fact that you can't see that, or won't, is very telling.


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Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

Nah, if you're gonna assume straight out the gate that I'm an idiot then what's the point of even wasting the time to type? You've gone in circles and this discussion has become stale as feth. Also, the US certainly acted in a genocidal manner towards the Japanese. They put their own citizens in fething camps dude. I love how you'll defend space elves all day, but justify incinerating a gak ton of Japanese civilians. Yet, you get mad when one of us call for the death of all Orks, lol.

Let me put this as nicely as I can muster. You seem more interested in being morally right within the laws of a fictional universe and scoring "gotcha points" than actually discussing anything, considering how far the conversation has devolved from the original topic.


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 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more.

Lolwut. Being forced to serve the Tau (which, by all lore accounts, is like having to take an Amazon warehouse job and is far better than life in an Imperial hive city) is just as bad as being exterminated by the Imperium? Seriously?

I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

On the grand scale? You're wrong.

Craftworlders are condescending a-holes with a massive superiority complex that can and will sacrifice the lives of any other race to prevent Asuryani deaths but they also don't go around atomising peaceful civilisations because they look funny as a basic policy. As many times as they manipulate other races (usually humanity cos they're pretty useful like that) into dealing with a threat, they also stop threats before they become threats to more than just the Aeldari. And while their manipulations will lead to death and destruction, in the grand mathematical equation that is Aeldari foresight, it sometimes works out ok-ish. Still objectively bad though.

And the T'au. Life for humans is better under the T'au as an auxiliary race than it is as the supposed "destined rulers of the galaxy" in the Imperium. That wouldn't last if the T'au Empire got larger than its little pocket on the Eastern Fringe and as time has moved on for the T'au, the ruling powers of the empire have come face to face with the real issues that spreading the T'au'va is facing. The Imperium is too vast to be conquered or even converted and the other major players aren't going for it. The T'au will likely end up like the Imperium if they push themselves too far. They still likely wouldn't turn to state-enforced genocide but the Emire would either have to become brutally authoritarian or simply collapse into smaller sized factions. The T'au are still bad because of the Castes, the not-quite citizen class of non-T'au and the expansionist goals alongside assimilation into their culture and creed but still not anywhere near as bad as the Imperium.

 Abanshee wrote:
I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

Two things:
1 - That makes you sound like a weirdo.
2 - Do you think people work in Imperial factories, mines, and record offices out of choice? Generational slavery and indentured servitude is a common punishment in the Imperium and those punishments come for the stupidest of things. Drop a parchment? Beatings from your overseer. Late for shift? Beatings and no rations. Disagree with the ruling class/current Cult in charge? Burned alive if you're lucky, slavery, conscription into a Penal Battalion, or getting turned into a Servitor if not. Even if a human can't be part of one of the T'au Castes they still have far more freedom of choice than they ever would in the Imperium at all levels of society.

 Abanshee wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

Eldar see us as worse than monkeys. ‘Mon Keigh’ is obviously an IRL pun, but in universe means something close to ‘pests who need to be exterminated’.

They don’t really see any other race as people, and would happily exterminate all of them that get in their way if they could.


But every race in 40k is terrible, and everyone is quite happy to wipe all the others out. That is the conceit of the setting.

Precisely zero playable factions are justified in what they do.

Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.