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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 02:37:19
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Dakka Veteran
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I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they don't have access to Warhammer Wiki to read about all the lore in the universe, meaning they might encounter threats they do not understand. I also won't be talking Orks or Drukhari because these factions are intentionally dumb and it's justified that they make stupid decisions.
Still, a lot of people supposedly with hundreds of years of training and experience are acting like they just graduate from a military academy and are eager to prove themselves through recklessly endangering themselves and others.
The Aeldari is the primest example. Despite being portrayed as a tiny race, they still do stupid gak such as needlessly throwing their soldiers into pitched battle instead of luring the enemy into ambushes. Gav Thorpe can't write Aeldari at all - he makes them all into Space Marines but strips away all the comical heroism, cool battle cries, and power armor. They are also incapable of achieving anything except through other races. There was a plot where Eldrad killed Abaddon, retconned. Iyanden used to send troops to Ichar 4 to fight the Tyranids, retconned. Yvraine adds a bit to the faction but is currently being ignored. All in all, GW just goes too hard with bashing the Aeldari that it is getting really annoying. If you have to put them in a bad situation, just have them outnumbered 100 to 1 where they can't win no matter how smart they are.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is another. Very inconsistent between being hungry for acquiring alien tech no matter the cost and wanting to destroy anything that didn't have a recognized Machine Spirit. If GW were to be consistent, the Adeptus Mechanicus should be rolling out models based on Tau battlesuits by now. At least some radical faction will learn to reverse-engineer Tau technologies which are quite simplistic (not related to the Warp) compared to other races. In one incident in the Codex, it is even explicitly said that the Adeptus Mechanicus overrun a Tau world and steal many cargoes of their technologies. Another common trope for the Adeptus Mechanicus is triggering a doom they should have seen coming from a mile away, such as teleporting a nuke to another planet, trying to ransack a Necron tomb without proper preparation and firepower, or breeding Tyranids in labs.
With Necrons and Chaos Space Marines, I do like how it is explained why they are sometimes too stupid. The Necrons are bogged down by dynastic struggles (which also plagued their empire before the War in Haven), so a lot of the time, either political bickering or promotion based on loyalty rather than merit leads to military disaster. And Chaos is Chaos.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 06:24:39
Subject: Re:Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Why are people in this universe so dumb?
because it drives the story, and the writers dont know better.
I'll expand the latter part first, since i don't mean it as a insult. the reason why multi century veterans act "like they just graduate from a military academy and are eager to prove themselves through recklessly endangering themselves and others" is because the Black library writers, by and large, are NOT highly skilled combat veterans. They are civillians who are professional writers, who are good at writing books, not squad tactics.
The tech level disparity doesn't help. We dont have 8 foot tall superhumans running around in bulletproof power armour and shooting 20mm fully automatic grenade launchers in the real world, and we have no idea what sort of "realistic" tactics that sort of techology would promote, any more than a medieval knight could postulate on the best use of attack helicopters. 40K combat doesnt work like real world combat, and trying to write it like it does can often highlight the absurdity of the setting in a negative manner.
Intended audience is another factor. While theirs a lot of adult fans of 40k, GW is still courting and aiming a lot of its efforts at the teenager market, which both encourages "badass" behaviour over shrewd tactical analysis, and requires that a lot of lore be pitched at a level young adults enjoy most.
Additionally, theirs the narrative need. the writers need the story to be compelling, which often mandates that the protagonists struggle because that highlights their heroism when they succeed. their fore, they often need to be placed in positions of disadvantage, which leads to them making stupid decisions.
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To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 06:30:25
Subject: Re:Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Well, the first thing you should realize is that what we see portrayed in the stories is not necessarily indicative of the entire setting at all times. The Eldar are not always fighting battles where they are desperate enough to throw their soldiers lives away. But we see that happen a disproportionate amount of the time for drama purposes. The last bit is just bad writing of course. But remember that their is a sort of "preservation bias" in what stories we read. We don't read about the hundreds of years of peace that the inhabitants of a craftworld enjoyed till a bunch of them tragically died in a botched mission, we just hear about the latter.
The Ad Mech is consistent. They are hungry for alien tech to study it. Not necessarily to reverse engineer it, just understand it. Find a weakness perhaps.
The reason they're not mass producing battlesuit copies is because they're inferior to Imperial technology. They're just larger and bulkier power armor. But equipping billions of Guardsmen with power armor and plasma guns is too expensive, which is why the Imperium doesn't use their best tech to equip their line troops. The Tau have the advantage of being small and thus being able to give everybody top tier stuff. At the scale of the Imperium they too would be forced to downgrade their troops gear.
Regarding Necron tomb worlds and Tyranids. You are looking at this from the perspective of an outside observer. You forget that the people in the setting do not have all the information. They have next to none of the information. Even within the Mechanicus, not everybody is sharing information with everybody. For most, they won't know what a Necron is. But they do know they've found some cool and shockingly intact xeno ruins on this planet that are chock full of interesting technology so lets go poking around! Not everybody knows how the Tyranids work. But I've got some sample creatures. They appear animalistic and not much of a threat, we'll breed them for experimentation!
And even if one Ad Mech guy in one place knows these things, that does nothing for an Ad Mech guy on the other side of the galaxy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/10 06:32:27
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 06:40:16
Subject: Re:Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna
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Because it's a dystopia, and because most factions are totalitarian theocracies ruled by raving lunatics and tyrants that would make Hitler look like a saint. Everything being full of stupidity and needless suffering and atrocities beyond imagination is the entire point of the setting. And you see inconsistencies because the characters are inconsistent. Half the admech want to loot battlesuit technology and use it for their own gain (and only their own gain), the other half believe without the slightest question that battlesuit technology is the most abhorrent of evils and no sacrifice is too large to destroy it and prevent it from polluting the sacred STC technology. And both sides would rather destroy the entire Imperium, causing the total extinction of humanity and unimaginable suffering and death for trillions, than allow the other to win or for a rival forge world to gain that technology instead.
Asking for people in 40k to be sensible and pragmatic is completely missing the setting and rapidly starts to get into dangerous ethical territory, where 40k is no longer a cautionary tale against the evils of fascism and religion and you are tempted to believe that maybe the Imperium is right, that maybe all the atrocities are in fact necessary and productive and good for humanity.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/10 06:40:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 06:55:32
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Fixture of Dakka
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bibotot wrote:
Still, a lot of people supposedly with hundreds of years of training and experience are acting like they just graduate from a military academy and are eager to prove themselves through recklessly endangering themselves and others.
Well, the real answer is, "Because writing is hard and there is only war." But more internally consistent answers depend on the specific faction. To paint with broad strokes:
* Any faction from the imperium is likely to have a bunch of gloryhounds, zealots, or arrogant idiots mixed throughout their command structures. Even (especially?) space marines. Basically, the imperium has a habit of rewarding people for embracing ignorant, stupid behavior in the name of loyalty or faith or whatever, plus a lot of out-of-touch rich guys in positions of power.
* Chaos, as you mentioned, is chaos. Half of them are literally insane.
* Xenos vary quite a bit, but orks are orks, 'crons and eldar are prideful/xenophobic, and tyranids are tyranids. Tau usually behave at least somewhat rationally.
The Aeldari is the primest example. Despite being portrayed as a tiny race, they still do stupid gak such as needlessly throwing their soldiers into pitched battle instead of luring the enemy into ambushes.
Eh? That doesn't match most of the lore I recall. I feel like you have a specific example of this in mind? Generally, craftworlders will steer as clear of direct and large-scale conflict as possible. When they do show up en masse or for a head-to-head fight, it's because their seers feel like their destiny is in a pickle and taking the hard-mode fight is least bad choice. They'll pretty much always opt for the least risky course of action, but sometimes you don't have time to kite and guerilla ambush the enemy piece by piece before they make their way to the chaos temple and doom a sector by waking up a shoggoth.
They are also incapable of achieving anything except through other races.
That's... You know how you were just complaining about the eldar picking too many head-on fights? This is them not doing that. Why lose half your forces in a battle of attrition when you can send a single squad and a warlock to nudge some space marines into fighting the Waaagh for you?
There was a plot where Eldrad killed Abaddon, retconned. Iyanden used to send troops to Ichar 4 to fight the Tyranids, retconned. Yvraine adds a bit to the faction but is currently being ignored. All in all, GW just goes too hard with bashing the Aeldari that it is getting really annoying. If you have to put them in a bad situation, just have them outnumbered 100 to 1 where they can't win no matter how smart they are.
The Eldrad retcon is a thing, but like, no one really liked him being dead anyway. Eldar performed well in that campaign, and then our fluff reward was to "lose" one of our main characters. So when they rolled back the clock to do the 13th crusade again, it's understandable that they didn't do the meh thing a second time. Especially with all the other nonsense going on in that plot. I don't recall ever hearing about Ichar 4, and a quick google search doesn't mention anything about Iyanden in that fight, so I don't feel like we're losing too many cool points by retconning whatever that was. I love Yvraine, but having her dudes die in droves is literally part of her strategy, so I find it odd that you like her but don't like eldar taking on pitched battles.
But sure. Generally, GW goes out of their way to diablo ex machina eldar just because lol grimdark, or else we tend to get used as the punching bag for imperials. This is mostly just a side-effect of imperials (especially marines) being the poster boy factions.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is another. Very inconsistent between being hungry for acquiring alien tech no matter the cost and wanting to destroy anything that didn't have a recognized Machine Spirit. If GW were to be consistent, the Adeptus Mechanicus should be rolling out models based on Tau battlesuits by now. At least some radical faction will learn to reverse-engineer Tau technologies which are quite simplistic (not related to the Warp) compared to other races. In one incident in the Codex, it is even explicitly said that the Adeptus Mechanicus overrun a Tau world and steal many cargoes of their technologies. Another common trope for the Adeptus Mechanicus is triggering a doom they should have seen coming from a mile away, such as teleporting a nuke to another planet, trying to ransack a Necron tomb without proper preparation and firepower, or breeding Tyranids in labs.
The mechanicus is a faction full of ambitious, traitorous, zealot nerd politicians. Making dumb gambles for the sake of personal ambition is one of the major parts of the identity. They don't have tau tech because being superstitious and anti-progress are some of their biggest ironic flaws. And when someone *does* decide to take a gamble and try to use xenos to their advantage, that's exactly how you end up with the ticked off necrons and Jurassic Park tyranids you've just mentioned.
In other words, yes the IT priests are a dumb, self-defeating organization. That's kind of the point/satire.
With Necrons and Chaos Space Marines, I do like how it is explained why they are sometimes too stupid. The Necrons are bogged down by dynastic struggles (which also plagued their empire before the War in Haven), so a lot of the time, either political bickering or promotion based on loyalty rather than merit leads to military disaster. And Chaos is Chaos.
'Crons have internal conflicts, sure. A lot of them are straight up irrational in one way or another due to damage caused by the long sleep/faulty ressurections. And even if you ignore both of those considerations, they're also hyper-xenophobic, prideful rich kids. Not a great recipe for good decisions.
tldr; the game/setting demands that everyone be fighting everyone all the time. Each faction is intentionally given its own set of (usually irrational) reasons to engage in boots-on-the-ground combat so that you have a reason to fight each other.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 07:00:17
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Out of universe it could simply have to do with bad writing or careless handling of most races that are not space marines. But I'm not a big BL reader and we'll consider xerxes explainations as just spot on.
Otherwise:
Eldar: don't forget Eldar are also arrogant pricks, which is a shortcoming that'll get you in more than one tricky situation no matter how experienced you are. The erldar doingt dumb thing is sometimes entirely related to "ha, these mon keigh are so stupid i'll do it in no time". What's more, their thinking not being that of a human in theories, you're not necesseraly supposed to understand what they are doing. Now, yes, poor space elfs are often just molested by the writers i guess. But by and large I'm pretty sure their not that dumb in the lore and this only happens occasionaly.
Ad-mech: the admech wants to gahter and privatise all knowledge, not that they actually want to do anything with it, which is more of a magos per magos question. Xeno tech is heretical, so no, they won't do tau battlesuits if they can't assemble one through combining several STCs, because remember, up until cawl's gross raping of the lore (sorry personal opinion here), the admech only created knew tech by reconstructing or combining in new fancy ways previously existing tech, due to their beliefs in the machine god prohibiting any breaktrhoughs.
Necrons: you can add that necrons are affected by sorts of deseases and often madness due to their stasis tombs failing them. This could totally explain some characters' actions.
The only one that don't seem to do silly things as of now are the tau but maybe they did in lore which I didn't cath up, well, except for stepping on the Imperiums toes which if it survives long enough is inevitably supposed to bite them back in the butt, however this is logical due to them not knowing and hypothetical considering in what gak the imperium is sitting at that time.
Hope I made it helps a bit.
Edit: that took me so long too bend english into something correct that 2 long replies already showed up while I wrote. Gosh
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/10 07:03:59
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 07:13:53
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Fixture of Dakka
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To be fair, I kind of can't let eldar play the "alien mindset" card to justify their behavior any more. Sure, they have alien cultures with dense histories that they take very seriously, but there are plenty of books and short stories from the eldar point of view. We've had enough peeks into their thoughts to see that their motives and thought processes are extremely human. The whole extreme emotion thing basically just boils down to them acting like teens with poor impulse control.
So when what's his face decides to Leroy Jenkins the tyranids in the novel Valedor, it does come across as a bit silly. Like, my dude. You can't bemoan the slow death of your species and get all your dudes killed because you couldn't be bothered to wait for the rest of your team to group up. That's behavior for self-centered corsairs that are just living for the lulz; not for autarchs who are responsible for the future of an entire craftworld.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 07:43:24
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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One thing to keep in mind is the vastness of the setting in space let alone time. Whilst one of the mantras of the setting is that, broadly speaking, most races have been in a stagnant state for around 10K years; the reality is that within each faction you will get some degree of variation of behaviour and attitude.
Because these behaviours can play out over whole systems this can mean that a large number of individuals behave differently within a faction than the "codex standard behaviour is described as".
You try on Earth describing how an English person behaves and holes general values and such and you can kind of get an approximation for the country as a whole - kind of. However the moment you start selecting individual regions, cities and people and social groups you'll find vast amounts of variety even up to behaviours that are counter to the "general national image."
You extrapolate that to whole systems of worlds and vast spaceships - many of which have many many many times the population of Earth today and you have a mindbogglingly vast population to variety to deal with.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 08:19:35
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.
I absolutely loathe the fact that Necrons or Chaos acting like complete fools all the time is just handwaved away with 'they're crazy and arrogant tho'.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 08:55:54
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna
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Lord Damocles wrote:'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.
No, it's literally the point of the setting. A fascist theocracy is an inefficient and stupid way of running things and 40k is a demonstration of what happens when you take that to the scale of an entire galaxy. Just as real fascists blundered from suicidal declaration of war to idiotic "wonder weapons" to giving out pointy sticks to fight against tanks and machine guns the various factions in 40k are dragged down into failure by their own abhorrent beliefs. Remember that 40k has its origins in satire of Thatcher-era UK politics and its characterization of the Imperium is very deliberate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 14:25:12
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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Don’t forget that the background is something like a justification for the tabletop game. From a "reasonable" point of view most conflicts in 40K should/ could be solved by space ships and aircraft. However, the game is about super soldiers firing their weapons of mass destruction at point blank range and hitting each other with hammers. You need a background that explains why they're doing it that way so you end up with very "heroic" characters out of a Hollywood Action movie.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 14:56:59
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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On Eldar?
Even their foresight is not perfect. They kind of do a Dr Strange, and try to nudge things to the most beneficial outcome. Yet sometimes, that’s inevitably going to mean the Least Detrimental outcome.
Sure, we may see hundreds if not thousands of Eldar lost in a battle or campaign. But, if the result of that campaign preserves tens or hundreds of thousands down the line, or even an entire Craftworld? It’s the price to pay.
Even when that is the calculus? There’s still never s guarantee it’ll go the desired way. It’s simply the Best Chance Of Getting The Necessary Outcome.
There’s also the wider question of Just How Many Eldar Are There. I tried a thread on that subject a while back, and it was pretty fun. Due to lack of solid info on pre-fall numbers no consensus was reached. But if they numbered in the trillions then (not that wild an estimate) then even just 1% surviving in Craftworlds and who knows what percentage safely tucked away in what would become Commoragh? You’re still talking billions of individuals, because big numbers are big.
Orks are far from stupid either. They’re just incredibly straight forward. They need battle to thrive. And their entire species is into that. As shown in that infamous quote? Winning or Losing doesn’t come into it, as long as the Orks have their fun.
Dark Eldar are pirates. They prefer pretty one sided raids, but the Galaxy being the Galaxy, that’s again never a guaranteed outcome. Then they can either cut their losses and run, or show off their prowess and overcome the odds for later bragging rights.
Adeptus Mechanicus just aren’t monolithic. Some (most?) abhor the use of Xenos Tech and will have nothing to do with it. Some might want to study it for the sake of gaining further knowledge, even if they’ve no intention of putting that knowledge to any use. Others yet consider it all the bounty of the Omnissiah, there to be understood and made eventual use of.
If anything, the curious motivations of Eldar, Orks, Ad Mech et al adds to the alien nature of 40K. Thought processes and world views which baffle and confuse modern humans. The fact we don’t understand them or even misunderstand is the whole point. And not shoddy writing.
The Ad Mech for instance aren’t just a technology cult. They’re a technology worshipping cult. They don’t really do innovation, because thanks to the now near mythical STC? The Ad Mech consider everything knowable known - you just need to find the previous answer.
There’s a great quote along similar lines. I think it’s from Ricky Gervais of all people. The gist is that if all copies of a given religious text were lost, that religious text could never be re-written in exactly the same way. But if we lost all our scientific knowledge? We’d still get back to the same answers via the same methods. It would just take time.
Ad Mech are an odd perversion of that claim. They wield truly astounding tech and toys, but just don’t really understand them for the most part. They lack the inquisitiveness of modern science, where we seek to not just achieve an aim, but understand why and how a given thing works. And from there, maybe even use that knowledge of a novel, otherwise unrelated process. And so it all atrophies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 17:04:28
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra
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Considering people now are dumb as rocks why should people 40000 years in the future be any different.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 17:07:32
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Posts with Authority
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Cuz BL writers cant write for gak
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"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 18:03:28
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Gert wrote:Considering people now are dumb as rocks why should people 40000 years in the future be any different.
However true it may be, this sentence threw me on the floor rolling with laughter.
I don't know whether the alien psyche theme is actually purposedly used in any BL book, I don't read any or almost so I can't judge but sometimes reading the comments of other mainly here on dakka for exemple it seems most of them are just horribly baly written  but it's incredibly cooler to give room to that theory. After all, as a fictional setting, 40k needs you to be naive on purpose if you are to enjoy it, as is the case of any fictional story or universe.
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40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 18:52:52
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ThePaintingOwl wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.
No, it's literally the point of the setting. A fascist theocracy is an inefficient and stupid way of running things and 40k is a demonstration of what happens when you take that to the scale of an entire galaxy. Just as real fascists blundered from suicidal declaration of war to idiotic "wonder weapons" to giving out pointy sticks to fight against tanks and machine guns the various factions in 40k are dragged down into failure by their own abhorrent beliefs. Remember that 40k has its origins in satire of Thatcher-era UK politics and its characterization of the Imperium is very deliberate.
I'm not sure that satirising Thatcherism should lead to the Chaos plan in Titanicus ('hey guys lets hold half of our titans back for no reason despite needing to overwhelm the defending Imperial forces quickly - which we totally could do if we used all of our dudes'), or literally any of the room temperature IQ actions that the Marine and Necron commanders take in The World Engine ('lets just not defend anything. That sounds like the winning move!'), for examples...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 19:44:31
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna
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You mean "if we demonstrated weakness by using more troops than necessary, in the process leaving no reserve to defend against a rival who sees that weakness as an opportunity to seize power". Winning on the battlefield is just a means to an end for Chaos forces, internal power struggles occupy the majority of their time and attention.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 21:01:55
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Lord Damocles wrote:'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing. I absolutely loathe the fact that Necrons or Chaos acting like complete fools all the time is just handwaved away with 'they're crazy and arrogant tho'. I do too enjoy a massive over-simplification of mental illness, being mentally ill myself. It's gotten too the point where I genuinely believe Chaos is nothing more than just "stupidity" made manifest. Like, the opposite of how Orks work (So, incredibly stupid to the point that they succeed) and are simply the settings' "paper tiger". Looks, really scary, but would get absolutely bodied by one of Roboute's shiny nu-marines. Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra or Skeletor-tier now.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/08/12 19:28:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 23:14:36
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Tell me you’ve only read 4chan summary without telling me you’ve only read 4chan summary.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 23:19:14
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Tell me you’ve only read 4chan summary without telling me you’ve only read 4chan summary.
An extension is that even if you do read the full book after such a summary; is that you can end up interpreting the work the same way because you went into it pre-loaded with a viewpoint. It's often why I try to avoid too many reviews before engaging with media. The kind of review I like is more of a technical approach to say that its good quality at what it does or is bad at what it does etc... I then want to engage with the story and weigh that up on my own. Heck I don't even try to read blurbs too much on books because almost all of them make most books sound silly/trite/simplified/daft/impossible
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/10 23:54:16
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Lord Damocles wrote:
I'm not sure that satirising Thatcherism should lead to the Chaos plan in Titanicus ('hey guys lets hold half of our titans back for no reason despite needing to overwhelm the defending Imperial forces quickly - which we totally could do if we used all of our dudes'), or literally any of the room temperature IQ actions that the Marine and Necron commanders take in The World Engine ('lets just not defend anything. That sounds like the winning move!'), for examples...
The problem is that the Imperium is written as inefficient, corrupt, stupid, etc decently often, but then writers try to shoehorn the idea of them being a heroic protagonist who outsmarts the enemy in too often. Non-Imperium factions should regularly be making the Imperium look like the dunces they are; you just need to look at Kelly's writing of the Tau to see how everyone gets dumbed down when the Imperium's involved so that nobody makes them look too bad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 02:24:54
Subject: Re:Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Grey Templar wrote:
The reason they're not mass producing battlesuit copies is because they're inferior to Imperial technology. They're just larger and bulkier power armor. But equipping billions of Guardsmen with power armor and plasma guns is too expensive, which is why the Imperium doesn't use their best tech to equip their line troops. The Tau have the advantage of being small and thus being able to give everybody top tier stuff. At the scale of the Imperium they too would be forced to downgrade their troops gear.
No, the reason the Admech don't supply everyone with power armor is twofold:
1.) The Admech are selfish pricks who provide the Imperium with as little as they can get away with.
2.) You don't give hive world gangers conscripted into the Imperial Guard enough power for them to become a problem. This is why Space Marines are hypno-programmed to within an inch of their lives, and Sisters of Battle are indoctrinated from birth.
The reason the Tau can equip their soldiers better is because they're a highly trained professional army. Fire Warriors are trained from birth to be soldiers. The Imperium often scoops up millions from hive worlds, trains them en route to battle and throw them into the crucible of war as soon as possible. So you give them the cheap and effective Lasgun, which is low maintenance and easy as hell to use.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 02:35:21
Subject: Re:Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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"I see! You assail the foe from the air as a knight on a mighty steed and shear them in twain with the spell blades atop!"
"Nope. Doesn't work that way."
"... I am a knight syr, not a sorcerer."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 02:42:51
Subject: Re:Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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John Prins wrote:
No, the reason the Admech don't supply everyone with power armor is twofold:
1.) The Admech are selfish pricks who provide the Imperium with as little as they can get away with.
2.) You don't give hive world gangers conscripted into the Imperial Guard enough power for them to become a problem. This is why Space Marines are hypno-programmed to within an inch of their lives, and Sisters of Battle are indoctrinated from birth.
The reason the Tau can equip their soldiers better is because they're a highly trained professional army. Fire Warriors are trained from birth to be soldiers. The Imperium often scoops up millions from hive worlds, trains them en route to battle and throw them into the crucible of war as soon as possible. So you give them the cheap and effective Lasgun, which is low maintenance and easy as hell to use.
It's also because the Imperium is absolutely terrible at logistics. Lasguns are a logisticians wet dream. Pulse weaponry, which requires you to isolate and purify high-energy ionized gas as ammunition, is much trickier.
If the Tau were the size of the Imperium they'd still have better logistics than the Imperium and still be using better tech.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 06:42:59
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Abanshee wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.
I absolutely loathe the fact that Necrons or Chaos acting like complete fools all the time is just handwaved away with 'they're crazy and arrogant tho'.
I do too enjoy a massive over-simplification of mental illness, being mentally ill myself.
It's gotten too the point where I genuinely believe Chaos is nothing more than just "stupidity" made manifest. Like, the opposite of how Orks work (So, incredibly stupid to the point that they succeed) and are simply the settings' "paper tiger".
Looks, really scary, but would get absolutely bodied by one of Roboute's shiny nu-marines. Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra
or Skeletor-tier now.
In a way, this is kinda true.
The Chaos Gods themselves are to blame. They don't have an end goal. They don't want to win, they want the status quo to be maintained. Their followers want to win, but not the Chaos Gods. They've already won in a sense. A galaxy of chaos and suffering and constant strife. So its now all about milking it for all its worth.
There is almost certainly a lot of deliberate sabotage of Chaos forces by their own patrons. They'll give power to a champion for a while, but eventually they'll get bored of him winning so they'll let him die eventually in a spectacular fashion and pick another dude. They'll never let their champions bring down the Imperium, they'll let them rampage but if they do too well they'll let them lose when the time comes.
To use the Skeletor or Cobra analogy. its like if those guys had some entity backing them, a patron who gives them stuff so they can do their bidding. But this entity doesn't want them to win. He wants the show to keep going forever. He wants Skeletor to constantly be fighting He-man forever. He wants Cobra to constantly be fighting GI Joe, forever. All so he can watch the shenanigans.
The Chaos followers themselves are fully serious about the part. They aren't trying to be cartoon villains. But they are the playthings of their gods, and the gods want their followers to be cartoon villains. Abaddon is fully aware of this tragedy, which is why he hates the gods and is trying to succeed in-spite of their meddlings.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 07:53:36
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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Abanshee wrote: Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra or Skeletor-tier now.
Chaos has to be fairly successful most of the time, just to get thwarted when they diabolical scheme is coming to fruition.
Otherwise, what is Exterminatus for?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 08:42:45
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Fixture of Dakka
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As Grey Templar points out, the Chaos gods basically want to maintain the status quo, and the chances of someone disrupting the status quo any time soon are relatively low.
You don't get a lot of stories about Nurgle bemoaning a great loss because the Chaos gods are fat and happy and that "great loss" is basically the equivalent of Nurgle's assistant being a couple of minutes late with his lunch. Basically, the chaos gods don't have to try very hard because they aren't in a position to lose much power in a hurry. With the possible exception of Slaanesh who is probably getting a little nervous about this new Ynnead guy.
Chaos marines tend to be handled with varying degrees of seriousness/intelligence. The warp-touched ones tend to become obsessed with something thematic or spooky (skull collecting, spreading disease, etc.) and tend to be prone to bad decision making as a result. Some are just so old and tired and disheartened that they kind of give up on making decent decisions and just fall into a routine of raiding and violence. The ones that are still sane and ambitious enough to make a go of things tend to be portrayed as pretty reasonable overall (I'm thinking of several characters from various AL novels), although they still have to deal with the bickering of their allies, a lack of stable supply lines, and striking the balance between having ambition and setting reasonable goals. (Rather than deciding to bull rush Terra or whatever.)
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 08:49:22
Subject: Re:Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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A lot of it is dogma/culture.just because a 'better' way of doing something might exist doesn't mean people in positions of power will do it.
Look at some of the Japanese tactics during ww2. Banzai charges into pre-sighted artillery grounds and machine gun nests was a thing until the very last days of the war. Similarly, defensive counter methods were seen as anthithecal to the spirit of bushido oftentimes so their ships were incredibly vulnerable to allied submarines.
I'm.sure you can find hundreds examples across history. Even being 'nice' sometimes all that's available is the most basic/simple plans because of the quality of your troops/training/communications. If you have a few thousand conscripts with 2 months training en-route to the theatre of war, no commander will expect them to be capable of complex manoeuvres or subtle strategies involving coordinated/combined arms. Regarding the latter, remember as well politics and personality plays a role. Generals samsonov and rennenkampf hated each other and their rivalry and refusal to work together led in large part to the Russian loss at the battle of tannenberg at the start of ww1. Again, thousands of similar stories Will exist.
Now, eldar? OK they have hundreds of years of life. Is that constantly learning and evolving or simply repeating old dogmas? Whole point of 'the path' is you double down on a single-minded approach. They are hammers. All problrms look like nails. If anything eldar would be incredibly stuck in their ways, their sheer arrogant assumption of their own superioroty would be a massive mental block towards even conceiving their tactics are less than perfect or that their opponents are capable.
Ad.mech are dogmatic as anything as well as paranoid. They want to hoard the technology but they don't want to disseminate it, they want to control it. Everything they do is self-interested, first and foremost.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/11 08:52:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 09:28:16
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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Another thing to consider, esp with the Imperium, is how dogma and smallg-cog is engrained heavily into society.
For the vast majority of citizens life is about doing small things as part of a big machine. Workers or administrators might have very specific very limited roles. They do a tiny part of the greater whole which means not only that they might not even understand the greater whole, but also that any innovation is heavily discouraged because they only control one small part and any change would have knock-on effects further up
When your whole working life is filling in form 1004.4B you can't change 1004.4B because it will thus not be approved by the next person along. etc....
This level of thinking and approach is engrained into the Imperium
It's not stupidity its simply a mindset and attitude toward being one tiny cog in the machine where thinking outside the box is discouraged from a young age
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/08/11 16:37:11
Subject: Why are people in this universe so dumb?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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The thing about Chaos is that it is weakness made power. Chaos preys on weaknesses to corrupt, and that means most Chaos characters are full of weaknesses as those don't disappear just because they gained daemonhood. IIRC Horus complained that the Primarchs that followed him into rebellion were a bunch of nutcases vs the far more competent Primarchs that remained loyal. The best current example being Mortarion's obsession with personally defeating Guilliman led to a portion of the Garden being burned down and Granddaddy Nurgle being very pissed at him.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/11 16:38:20
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