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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
LEANS. That's not my native langage ok but I'm pretty sure in this context it means "gives the impression of, tends to a certain direction".

So my point still stands that the way you defended yourself is LEANING towards expressing such ideas as some killing is alright. If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

Bingo, my point exactly.

Swastakowey wrote:
Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

"Children aren't innocent because I think they'll grow up to be an enemy" is not an acceptable justification for genocide.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

"Children aren't innocent because I think they'll grow up to be an enemy" is not an acceptable justification for genocide.

So your solution to orks fungus growing in your basement, is wait for them to grow up and destroy your house and family before dealing with it?

I'll try one more method to reaching your impenetrable opinions. Can you think of any scenario, real or fictional, in which your no genocide rule may not apply? If your answer is no, then we have both made our point and can move on. If you answer yes (the right answer) then we can all breath a sigh of relief as you have come to your senses.

Swastakowey wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


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Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient.

I hope you're the first to line up and serve in the meatgrinder to fight the eternally crusading aliens of 40k. Afterall, dying as your father did, and your son will and every one after for all of eternity is a small price to pay to not be called a genocidal person hahaha. Good luck selling that mindset to people with a real threat in front of them... like Orks.

Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

Because, they're sentient and have feelings to ya know?

Like, what your insides look like or how much pressure it'd take to crush your bones? Or how loud a human can audibly scream or how much humans does it take to fill an entire pitcher full of their blood? For refreshments of course, we wouldn't want the poor little Archon and his Kabal to be thirsty would we?

Yes those very, very interesting "feelings" that they all collectively share and exhibit.

 Abanshee wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


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Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient.

I hope you're the first to line up and serve in the meatgrinder to fight the eternally crusading aliens of 40k. Afterall, dying as your father did, and your son will and every one after for all of eternity is a small price to pay to not be called a genocidal person hahaha. Good luck selling that mindset to people with a real threat in front of them... like Orks.

Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

Because, they're sentient and have feelings to ya know?

Like, what your insides look like or how much pressure it'd take to crush your bones? Or how loud a human can audibly scream or how much humans does it take to fill an entire pitcher full of their blood? For refreshments of course, we wouldn't want the poor little Archon and his Kabal to be thirsty would we?

Yes those very, very interesting "feelings" that they all collectively share and exhibit.

I agree!

Oh but you forget fellow intellectual, that should one of these sentient creatures mature, it is of course ok to eradicate them. My son perished in exacting our moral justice as any good man would do against these adults! Thank the emperor he didn't accidentally hit an adolescent ork in the process! Foul things adult orcs are... how do such things coem from such angels?

Swastakowey wrote:
So your solution to orks fungus growing in your basement, is wait for them to grow up and destroy your house and family before dealing with it?

Destroying a non-sentient fungus is not genocide just like mowing your lawn isn't genocide. We're talking about killing sentient beings here.

I'll try one more method to reaching your impenetrable opinions. Can you think of any scenario, real or fictional, in which your no genocide rule may not apply? If your answer is no, then we have both made our point and can move on. If you answer yes (the right answer) then we can all breath a sigh of relief as you have come to your senses.

I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with figuring out situations where genocide could be justified, but that's exactly the reason why GW had to put out an official statement reminding everyone that every single faction in 40k is unimaginably evil and the Imperium is no exception.

The answer is no, genocide is not acceptable, and I'm appalled that you are willing to publicly state that genocide must be acceptable in some cases and you hope that I "come to my senses" and agree with you on endorsing it. This whole conversation is reminding me of the creepy people who obsess over trying to find a way to kill someone in "self defense", gleefully hoping someone will break into their house so they can have a chance to shoot someone.

Destroying a non-sentient fungus is not genocide just like mowing your lawn isn't genocide. We're talking about killing sentient beings here.

Yeah, it is. Killing Ork spores is certainly genocide since your actively denying their ability to reproduce therefore reducing the population. Also, they're very sentient, but still barbaric brutes. I ain't arguing against it though, bring out the promethium in mass!

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
So your solution to orks fungus growing in your basement, is wait for them to grow up and destroy your house and family before dealing with it?

Destroying a non-sentient fungus is not genocide just like mowing your lawn isn't genocide. We're talking about killing sentient beings here.

I'll try one more method to reaching your impenetrable opinions. Can you think of any scenario, real or fictional, in which your no genocide rule may not apply? If your answer is no, then we have both made our point and can move on. If you answer yes (the right answer) then we can all breath a sigh of relief as you have come to your senses.

I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with figuring out situations where genocide could be justified, but that's exactly the reason why GW had to put out an official statement reminding everyone that every single faction in 40k is unimaginably evil and the Imperium is no exception.

The answer is no, genocide is not acceptable, and I'm appalled that you are willing to publicly state that genocide must be acceptable in some cases and you hope that I "come to my senses" and agree with you on endorsing it.

Thankfully GW, the money hungry corporation without a soul has no bearing on what is right or wrong. Nor would I ever use a company as evidence for my moral compass because... well imagine...

But yes, when you have a strong moral implication you should probably explore it. For example we all think lying or killing is not ok HOWEVER when put under scrutiny such a broad statement becomes impossible to hold true. Therefore we start drawing exceptions and identifying grey zones. If you cant do that, then why have that opinion? If your opinion can't hold up to scrutiny, as is the case with orks and genocide (a fictional hypothetical remember, so you can free your emotions from it somewhat) then it might be time to reflect on the validity of it. Remember, wiping every Dark Eldar out of existence doesn't mean you now have justified the systematic removal of every American on earth. Just like deciding its ok to bomb a military compound which might have mothers visiting that day doesn't justify killing mothers until they are no more. It can be a lot more complicated than broad statements of no value.

Also the forced abortion of every person in a group is indeed genocide. Im sure you know this though as a resident genocide expert.

Removed.

Swastakowey wrote:
Therefore we start drawing exceptions and identifying grey zones.

No we don't. There is no "grey zone" for questions like this, only bloodthirsty desire to come up with rationalizations for why genocide is ok. You're the creepy guy leaving his garage open, desperately hoping that someone will walk in so he can have the chance to shoot someone in "self defense".

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Because it actually is complicated? Again if it's so simple, please oh wise moralist, tell me your solution to the orc problem? Third time asking...

Destroy military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, as I have already said. Stop making up excuses for why genocide is justified.

But orks are born for war.
Their entire culture and reason to exist is battle. They are a bio-engineered weapon.

They only have military targets; they only have the ability to fight wars. Removing all military targets and removing their ability to fight wars requires destruction of the entire ork race. Or you shift from genocidal crimes to genetic ones as you alter their DNA to remove their warlike requirement from life.

What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Therefore we start drawing exceptions and identifying grey zones.

No we don't. There is no "grey zone" for questions like this, only bloodthirsty desire to come up with rationalizations for why genocide is ok. You're the creepy guy leaving his garage open, desperately hoping that someone will walk in so he can have the chance to shoot someone in "self defense".

No, im not. But you are the guy in these wild hypotheticals crying at the loss of Orks in the galaxy. A totally misplaced emotion which is seemingly blind to the untold suffering they cause to real innocent people. But look, if you can't explore things because you're scared of being perceived a certain way, why say anything at all?

Im tempted to explore the garage logic but it really is off topic. I think the genocide thing is more relevant and funny, especially in the context of literal orks hahaha. It would make a great comedy skit.


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 RaptorusRex wrote:
What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

Quit having fun and discussing hypotheticals!

 Overread wrote:
But orks are born for war.
Their entire culture and reason to exist is battle. They are a bio-engineered weapon.

That's an inherent contradiction. Culture requires sentience and agency, if orks can be nothing other than a weapon then they are non-sentient automatons acting on purely animal instinct and the concept of genocide does not apply.


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 RaptorusRex wrote:
What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

Unfortunately there are some people who admire the Imperium and enjoy it being a thinly-veiled symbol of the genocides they want to commit in the real world.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


Unfortunately there are some people who admire the Imperium and enjoy it being a thinly-veiled symbol of the genocides they want to commit in the real world.

This is a very creepy way to view the world and discussions. Borderline paranoid. Remember you just dehumanized orks and ruled that it isnt genocide against them because they are seemingly incapable of anything but (insert thing I dont like here). Now where has that logic been used before? Or is genocide only ok when you can try your best to not call it genocide.

Remember orks have language, customs, currency, hierarchy, society, technology, songs, trends, heroes etc etc etc. Id personally call it genocide... but unlike you I wouldnt be lying.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

Fictional genocide of a fictitious species. Oh, the horror! We have fallen as a community, millions must be reeducated.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


Past atrocities do not justify future ones.

Nor fictionnal ones for that matter, but you said it clear this time, so I've no more to criticise about.

However if I may advise you, maybe make another thread in another section of the forum on sentience because that is a topic in and of itself that occupyed philosophers and theologists for a long time and still does. Along the lines "how do you qualify sentience in a fantasy universe?". Could be worth a chat.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

However if I may advise you, maybe make another thread in another section of the forum on sentience because that is a topic in and of itself that occupyed philosophers and theologists for a long time and still does. Along the lines "how do you qualify sentience in a fantasy universe?". Could be worth a chat.

I agree, it could be interesting.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Overread wrote:
But orks are born for war.
Their entire culture and reason to exist is battle. They are a bio-engineered weapon.

That's an inherent contradiction. Culture requires sentience and agency, if orks can be nothing other than a weapon then they are non-sentient automatons acting on purely animal instinct and the concept of genocide does not apply.

Not really. They are a bioengineered weapon.

They are still alive, still have hopes, dreams, aspirations, cultural elements and way more. It's just all focused on being the biggest and bestest ork with a drive toward war because an ork is most happy when they are in a good scrap/fight/whaargh.

They are indeed alive and cultured; they are just wired up for WAR and combat. Even without enemies they fight heavily within themselves.

Again to stop Orks you have to either destroy them all or edit them at a genetic level to remove their warlike elements. Otherwise they will constantly keep trying to unite and start wars. If anything keeping an ork in a state of peace without battle, combat or aggression and such could actually be considered torture and abuse.

The difficulty in this kind of thread is assigning agency to fictional characters. The Emperor’s decisions are not made in any in-universe manner, rational or irrational. They have been made by a series of different authors over 30 years or so.

 Flinty wrote:
The difficulty in this kind of thread is assigning agency to fictional characters. The Emperor’s decisions are not made in any in-universe manner, rational or irrational. They have been made by a series of different authors over 30 years or so.

This gets even muddier when there are stories which are in-universe lies presented as truth; articles that have other characters guessing/surmising the actions of others; writers who grab the wrong end of a stick etc....

On top of that is the fact that many fans only engage with lore in bits not as a whole. So some have read more than others; some are running purely on what's in the codex and rulebook which is often the most boiled down summary of a factions lore. Meanwhile others have poured over every single book and short story and throw away comment in White Dwarf; then you've those who have engaged with lore in generational blocks. Perhaps reading a lot of old or newer lore and not engaging much with the rest.

Exalted those 2 past posts, really true both of them and they encompass most of the lore discussions of not all.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Exalted those 2 past posts, really true both of them and they encompass most of the lore discussions of not all.

Same, I honestly couldn't of put any better myself, than what both Flinty and Overread said.

Hecaton wrote:
You have the cause and effect wrong. Almost every alien species is hostile to humans because the humans are fething nuts. You can go read the material on the Tau if you want to see how a new player on the scene learns very quickly that the Imperium is senselessly genocidal and untrustworthy.

This is 40k, not star trek. Almost every alien species is hostile, full stop. That's part of what makes 40k, well, 40k.

Even if humans weren't around, the likes of the rangdan, slaugh, hrud, orks and any other number of alien races would be off doing horrible things to each other as a matter of course anyway. Humans are just one more source of food.

As to the tau - I mean, from the imperials point of view, since their failure to exterminate the primal tau and since they have since rose to prominence, how many millions of the imperiums soldiers and hundreds of worlds/ billions of their citizens have been lost to wars against them in the Eastern fringe? From the imperial point of view the current situation with them would justify their outlook that had the extermination been done right, they would be in a better place now.

ThePaintingOwl wrote:[)

That's an inherent contradiction. Culture requires sentience and agency, if orks can be nothing other than a weapon then they are non-sentient automatons acting on purely animal instinct and the concept of genocide does not apply.

Orks have kultur. Orks have sentience (orks know they are orks) and agency.

They have a sophisticated civilization, religion (gork and mork), music (goffic rock is a thing), art (of war), a social hierarchy, agriculture, animal/squig-husbandry, technology and industry, economies/trade (teef), logistics (how else do Boyz get to da fight?) specialists (weirdboyz), various subcultures (kult of speed) and about a thousand subcultures devoted to using squigs.everything might be geared to war and conquest ultimately, but their civilization is in many regards, kind of perfect. They even have an oppressed class - grots.

The point is that the Tau have managed to integrate several different species and civilizations, including humans, into their empire.

Every xenos is hostile to the IoM because the IoM is hostile to every xenos.

Except the T’au remain First Among Equals, with a rigorously imposed caste system amongst their own ranks, where you can only gain power and influence with the blessings of the Ethereal Caste - who remain above everyone else Because.

That’s just not a wholesome society, at all. Scrape away the veneer of positivity, and you end up with the leader Caste of a specific race exploiting everyone else they can to expand their own sphere of influence, sharing varying sizes of crumbs down their pyramid scheme of the Greater Good. Not to mention the suggestions that some races within their Empire have been tricked/controlled into being there, such as the Vespid Communion Helms.

Saying yes please and thank you whilst taking control is still taking control. Especially as none of their vassals appear to have any say whatsoever in the running of the Empire.

Oh the Tau have their own issues and would be blatantly the villains in any other setting.

But the bar we are trying to clear here is no getting into genocidal wars with each and every neighbor like the IoM does, and the Tau do clear that absurdly low bar.

Until your planet rejects The Greater Good. Then you’re absolutely fair game.

 Abanshee wrote:


Take a drink every time someone assumes you haven't read something. I'd be suffering from liver failure, lol!

Didn't answer my question. I guess you really *don't* know.


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 Abanshee wrote:

Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

The United States was not genocidal towards the Japanese just for existing. That's the difference. The fact that you can't see that, or won't, is very telling.


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Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

 Tyran wrote:
The point is that the Tau have managed to integrate several different species and civilizations, including humans, into their empire.

Every xenos is hostile to the IoM because the IoM is hostile to every xenos.

And my point was plenty xenos are just as bad and were they in ascendancy in the galaxy (arguably orks already are in ascendancy) you'd see no difference in the reality on the ground.

Tau have integrated some xenos and some humans. Others they exterminate on sight eg orks.

Humans too are often not regarded as valuable - wasn't there that short story a while back where the tau turned on their human allies for being too superstitious?