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2024/06/22 12:09:48
Subject: Re:Hive City Terrain - how should it look?
-Clearly this sort of thing works best for warband size games like Necromunda. However larger games can certainly work if you and your opponent agree to infantry-only games.
-a table can be as tall as you want as long as there is a scenario based reason for moving around all levels. Having deployment zones in the middle or multiple levels and objectives on multiple levels is a good start.
-Treat ladders as open terrain and have lots of them.
-Even if your walkways aren't very wide, have the platforms they lead to be large enough to accommodate multiple squads.
Just came across one of these in Dunelm and Immediately thought of this thread:
The measurements don't mention it but I had a tape measure on me and there is 7" between shelves with the shelves being about 2/3rds of an inch.
Now that is a bit more than what has been discussed in this thread, but you can very comfortably reach into this height and place structures on the layers. A few similar areas distributed around a board and connected by various walkways and roads would be accessible and somewhat like the Macross images upthread.
Food for thought. This was a commercial product but someone could make something similar fairly easily.
Sureshot05 wrote: The greatest challenge with hive city's would be making the table playable. Once you get four levels of walk ways cris crossing in a game, its practically impossible to reach the lower levels. I've modelled terrain with walkways between upper buildings and these often prove a hindrance to moving around in the actual game.
I think thematically battles in hives and tunnels fights etc are cool, but due to the nature of table top gaming, it is well handled by zone mortalis and then mechanicus terrain.
As a one off, i would love to battle over a 5 level terrain set, but I think it would prove really hard to do so regularly with speed.
That said, i do like the idea of a wall mounted table. Here me out! You mount your standard size table on the wall, and then place levels with 4" spacing all the way up, each roughly 5" deep. Then you decorate, build and create a cutaway of the hive, but play your game as if you are going up and down, rather than across the table. That sounds like a great table.
i agree. using Kowloon Walled City as an example of the urban areas of a hive undercity, you basically get something not playable except as a first person videogame..
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I think that density of terrain either needs to be handled with garrisoned building rules (similar to boarding transport vehicles) or be heavily ruined to facilitate access to some areas with much of the volume solid rubbl, a bit like in this image during the demolition:
Otherwise it would be impassable, LoS blocking terrain for practical purposes.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Those who have been around a while will recall the massive tower GW once showed for Necromunda. Many stories tall, based around 4 walls that split the board in four sections with lots of ladders, platforms and passages between.
I've seen several versions of this over the years. Here's an I'm progress shot of a small one made of magnetic tiles. Each level is glued together, but you can swap them out at will and stack them in district orders. Also, these sets can be quite cheap in the off-brand versions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/22 15:26:26
Its probably worth looking for maps and images of Megacity one from Judge Dredd. It has much the same high rises and concentration of people in each block. Peach trees in the good movie is an example of a small one by MC1 standrds
Those sorts of fixed set ups that Haighus and Eilif posted can look incredible. I think if you're gonna do that, you can go ham making it look as authentic as possible. But for me it's not a practical approach - I just don't have the storage space (I live in a relatively small apartment with a small kid and my wife) so my scenery needs to flatpack down so I can store it in tubs that slide under a bed or whatever.
I've seen those magnetic toys though. Really interesting, and VERY flatpack-able. I made magnetic dungeon tiles that also function as stackers for fantasy dungeon crawls, and they're pretty great, and those tiles are 90% of the way there for a Sci Fi version. The only doubt I have is how long the set up will realistically take with something like that - my Wyloch inspired Sector Mechanicus rip offs take a decent amount of time to set up, and they've got far fewer pieces than similar coverage of the magnetic tiles.
Kale, absolutely agree about Mega City One, I think it's absolutely part of the inspiration. What MC1 has is the complex interlocking roadways everywhere in between the hab towers. I think that could look amazing on a table, and give you the mobility for vehicles. But it's a big challenge to balance the size of the road with accessibility.
Dr Who serials The Happiness Patrol and Paradise Towers.
Not the show’s finest moments. But plenty of Necromunda type goodness all the same. The killer cannibal old ladies of Paradise Towers remain legit terrifying though.
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This image is from Kill Team: Warzone Chalnath, and I am pretty sure it depicts fighting in one of the slum-stacks of the feudal world St Kornaz's Hope in the Vedik system*. If you look closely, the buildings on either side of the alley are half-timbered Tudor style, but on a big scale. There are also a few wires and doodads. Techno-Tudor architecture...
Certainly a very different vibe to typical GW terrain!
*The actual campaign lore is written rubbish. Best I can tell, the Vedik system is within the "Chalnath Expanse", hence the warzone title... but the Chalnath Expanse is only mentioned in the blurb on the back cover.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Hah, Techno-Tudor on a ridiculous scale is VERY 40K. Especially if the trees you need to make those massive beams are singing and can feel pain or something.
Kale wrote:Its probably worth looking for maps and images of Megacity one from Judge Dredd. It has much the same high rises and concentration of people in each block. Peach trees in the good movie is an example of a small one by MC1 standrds
for example, using some online seaches
Concept art from the 1995 film:
Spoiler:
and concept art from the "mega city one" TV series pitch
Of course, a major difference twixt MC-1 and an Imperial Hive? Imperial Hive’s don’t have unemployment as such.
I mean…being feudal it’s truly arguable if there’s employment as such. But the majority of the populace has its eternal tasks going on, and so we wouldn’t see the overblown boredom buster attractions of the Mega Cities.
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I suspect unemployment does exist within hives, but how that is dealt with is going to vary. Social safety nets are generally going to be predatory to non-existent- one is to join the Guard and escape off-world, but at least you get your daily ration packs and recaf. A similar approach is bonded servitude- I suspect hives are involved in huge amounts of people trafficking (legal and illegal), both within and off world. Forcing the desparate into the underhive is another method- probably most of these just die in the harsh environment, so this is essentially an execution with a glimmer of hope (a bit like a penal legion or the Guard as a whole now I think about it).
I doubt that they are simply left to their own devices to starve though- large numbers of desparate people with nothing else to lose are intensely destabilising. When hives experience supply disruption food riots are a huge issue that can threaten Imperial rule. So it is in the interest of local enforcers to manage the unemployed somehow and prevent that.
Entertainment does seem to exist, but the poor masses often seem to resort to the limited available options in their hive levels. Stuff like drugs and brothels. TV does seem to be a thing but its basically propaganda all day, every day, and many poor civilians probably don't have reliable access to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/24 08:55:45
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Another audio visual reference which clearly fed into Confrontation (no not that one, the WD serialised predecessor to Necromunda), and fed from the same underlying societal gubbins as 40K and 2000ad. Particularly the character being cleaner and brighter than the peons.
It’s also a legit bop, so extra enjoyment.
And speaking of Confrontation, early Necromunda, influences and fashion? I’m guessing these guys* were a heavy influence on the Brat Gangs.
*founding Sputnik Tony James played bass on the previous Billy Idol track, as they co-wrote it as part of Chelsea/Generation X/Gen X before going their separate ways. Indeed Dancing With Myself was originally a Gen X song. There you go. There’s some punk/post punk/new wave trivia for you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/27 19:17:06
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Gangs provide a social safety net the Imperial government either can't or won't provide in the Hives. There's a reason hive cities are just lousy with them. In addition, organized crime follows much of the same social relations of proto-feudalism and just warlordism in general, especially in the early medieval period: patron-client relations, entrenched value systems, a reliance on etiquette, et cetera (c.f the works of one Charles Tilly). This relationship between the sort of state the Imperium is and the way gangs function is most evident on Cthonia, I feel.
As for how such socio-economics would influence the look of on-table terrain, I feel as if the average 2000 pts game covers at most a city block. So, it should be one or two gangs at most. If we follow the Cthonian model as an example, I feel like you should have a 'under-layer' (ala the aforementioned Walled City) with claustrophobic tunnels that can fit a squad in column formation at most, then slowly open up as you ascend. Certain areas on these upper levels should be set up to look like armed camps for the gangs, places where there's some obvious fortification, probably near the various paths through the city (so they can collect 'taxes').
Just spitballing, but that's my thoughts.
The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.
At least on Necromunda, there’s extra bells and whistles on the gang violence.
It is as you described, but the gang violence is sanctioned and encouraged by House Helmawr. Possibly to keep that internal competition more or less under control, but also to help root out heretics, mutants, witches and other undesirables from festering too much in the parts it’s difficult to reach.
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Came across this in a White Dwarf from... 2021 I think. Might have been beginning of 2022. Built for Necromunda and follows the "battle on the outside" paradigm.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Da Boss wrote: So, what do people think are the criteria for usable multi-level terrain?
I'll give a run down!
1. Level Height - try to keep it fairly consistent for ease of linkage. By that I mean everything on one level should be at the same height. I think 4-5" is a decent height for a level, allowing hands to get in between levels fairly easily. The old Cityfight books suggested 3" and I think that is actually a bit too small.
2. Walkway width - I think walkways should be wide enough to allow for 3 normal infantry to walk abreast. For me that's 3" across, and why I do not use 32mm bases at all in my collection. 2 40mm can walk abreast on this kind of walkway too, which allows for a better gameplay dynamic. If you want, you could include 2 abreast walkways, but they should be less common and not the main thoroughfares. And wider walkways up to 4" or more could form highways and other transport links suitable for vehicles, but I wouldn't make those the most common type.
3. Walkway sides - I would tend to not putting too much on the side of my walkways, just to maximise access. I'd just rule that models on a higher level benefit from cover and move on.
4. Platforms - Your platforms should be at least 4" square, and I think 6" squares are also a good idea. If using platforms it's good to have a mix where the platform is on a solid pillar that blocks LOS and movement and a platform where the platform is on thin "legs" that allow models to move underneath.
5. Level access - There should be copious ladders and stairs and then I'd just handwave models climbing between levels. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Otherwise the upper levels won't get used much.
6. Board Layout - I think you want access to the upper levels in both deployment zones. So that someone could deploy on the highest level at the start of the game and mostly stay up there, or in the middle, or on the bottom. That should have the result of making 3 different battles play out at different elevations.
What do you guys think? Would you add anything to this?
Do you want people to shoot from one level to another? And if so how easily? That influences things.
Movement - we typically do poor multilevel objectives. Vertical movement is time consuming. Sci fi risers and lifts can help here.
Movement - verticle movement can be dull. horizontal movement has corners and hiding from each other etc. Hard to get this in vertical movement. Typically you are exposed or hidden while moving up, stopping a lot of gameplay.
In terms of aesthetic? I’m favouring a drab, tarnished look to things.
Not too heavily rusted, as given how precious water is on a Hive World, I figure there would be built-in moisture traps. Not just to provide and recycle potable water, but to prevent materials rusting. After all, once built something is required to last. And you really don’t want to risk load bearing constructions decaying away, as that could allow significant damage.
So more surface, patina rust. The sort that tends to prevent further rust
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In terms of finding a balance between visuals and play-ability for underground/enclosed enviroments, the maps from the Starship Troopers Terran Command RTS has some pretty good ones. the game and it's DLC's have several examples of 'underground' combat where the missions are set in stormdrain and service tunnels under cities. which they do largely through just having nice large corridors and rooms and lots of industrial detailing like pipes and machines. (including in the first DLC where they use the same approach for the interior of the orbiting space station, as well as underground bases on the regular maps
you can see several of these maps in these play throughs
Spoiler:
it would not be hard to take something like those maps, with their large rooms and wide tunnels (more than big enough for vehicles of the non-titan, non-flyer types), and just have buildings and other urban elements along the walls or within the rooms.
nor is the size all that odd.. given the existance of stuff like the Tokyo storm drainage system and its massive water diversion tunnels and cisterns.
Spoiler:
it wouldn't be hard to imagine that a hive city might have extensive versions of these sorts of drains originally, which as the city grows up and out, might end up dry and useless, and end up converted into housing and work spaces. (either officially, or through shanty towns)
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2024/07/02 06:09:34
And don’t forget claustrophobic spaces. Pipework is a useful form of cover, and looks visually striking. GW’s pipe kits are fairly rudimentary, but do allow for vertical as well as horizontal. Once assembled it’s possible to have individual pipes or a real tangle where movement through isn’t possible, but a narrow LoS can be drawn.
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When did 40k drop garrisoned terrain rules? Was it 8th? Personally I think that is a neat way of sidestepping some accessibility issues for dense terrain- just make units count as inside a transport if they enter those areas. Especially helpful for intact buildings.
I think I got to throw grenades into a building firepoint... once, in a Planetstrike game. Very cool rule, shame it didn't get much opportunity to be used.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: In terms of aesthetic? I’m favouring a drab, tarnished look to things.
Not too heavily rusted, as given how precious water is on a Hive World, I figure there would be built-in moisture traps. Not just to provide and recycle potable water, but to prevent materials rusting. After all, once built something is required to last. And you really don’t want to risk load bearing constructions decaying away, as that could allow significant damage.
So more surface, patina rust. The sort that tends to prevent further rust
I agree that everything should be a bit rusted and dirty, but not full on crumbling unless you're modeling the deep underhive or around the Sump.
As mentioned, before I'm a fan of the original Necromunda aesthetic so I actually like allot of color in my hive terrain, albeit faded flat colors and plenty of green. No all grey hives for me thank you very much.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/07/02 11:47:51
For splash of colour, I’m going with muted primary colours, and a bit of a drab green. Oh, and Screamer Pink has turned out beautifully.
I guess the aesthetic could be described as maintained, but not cared for. So as bits wear out they’re replaced, sometimes via necessary bodge job, sometimes with spares recovered from other things, but nobody is really decorating.
That opens up some interesting painting opportunities. For instance, hazard striping itself might be maintained fairly regularly, but any paint covering installations, not so much?
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I think looking at actual railcars and railroad infrastructure would be instructive. Often displaying a heavy degree of rust and grime, but usually nothing that would affect structural integrity or usefulness.
Plus even with today's more boring paint schemes you still see a good deal of color.
I like the Warhammer Crime books for their depiction of a hive that's not really a classic hive. Varengantula is described as a continent spanning city with various districts walled separated by large concrete walls. It has a realistic feel to it.
It's pretty much Mega City 1. Ground cars, highways, subways.
I never understood the whole, build a city up into the air like a mountain thing. But for an interstellar society is might make sense. I.E. You start with a natural mountain, construct platforms for less costly transport to orbit, maybe a space elevator, and then the city is constructed into the mountain as the wealth flows in and out of this space "nexus."
"Iz got a plan. We line up. Yell Waaagh, den krump them in the face. Den when we're done, we might yell Waagh one more time." Warboss Gutstompa
Should give those books a read, heard lots of good things.
I think a concrete hive is totally believable too - I just think it would arise probably on a world that didn't need any terraforming.
Because I think you'd use steel or other materials for the initial habitats when terraforming is not complete, LV 4 26 style, and that'd layer up on top of itself. I also imagine that there'd be a fair few half completed terraform projects in the Imperium, failed during the Age of Strife or whatever. So then I think the "stacked dome" model works fairly well, especially if it's all focused around some particular resource that's being extracted.
Btw, I've not been posting much because I don't have steady internet access!
I think a concrete hive is totally believable too - I just think it would arise probably on a world that didn't need any terraforming.
Because I think you'd use steel or other materials for the initial habitats when terraforming is not complete, LV 4 26 style, and that'd layer up on top of itself. I also imagine that there'd be a fair few half completed terraform projects in the Imperium, failed during the Age of Strife or whatever. So then I think the "stacked dome" model works fairly well, especially if it's all focused around some particular resource that's being extracted.
Btw, I've not been posting much because I don't have steady internet access!
the initial lore for imperial buildings was that they were made using techniques that would exploit whatever local materials there are. so i'd imagine that stone/concrete would be common even for worlds where the enviroment wasn't very habitable to start. mind you, i think most hive worlds started as habitable worlds.. and turned into poisoned wastelands over time through pollution, mining, and general environmental destruction.
from the "space marine" game's 1st ed (before it became Epic)
Imperial Architecture
Much of the fighting in the wars of the Horus Heresy has taken part in and around cities, refinery complexes, and similar groups of buildings. Thanks to the Standard Template Construct, buildings of several common types are constructed on most lmperial worlds using locally available materials. Using the Standard Template Construct means that the appearance of a building is determined by its function rather than the materials of which it is constructed. According to the resource base of the planet in question, this can be stone, brick, wood, coral, volcanic ash, compacted inorganic waste or any of a hundred other material. Thus, buildings of more or less identical appearance may be found throughout the lmperium, regardless of all considerations other than function.
here is the rest of the section btw, which would be useful for designing a hive city board.
Spoiler:
Administratum
The complex organization of the Adeptus Ministratum, or Administratum, is responsible for the administration of the whole of the lmperium; it manages over a million inhabited worlds. Planetary government buildings, records offices, taxation centers, and many more are controlled by the Administratum; they are usually distinguished by the sign of the Imperial eagle over the main door. Many bloody assaults and valiant defenses have taken place in and around urban and planetary government buildings; they are natural command points, and the fall of the Administratum normally indicates the fall of the city. This building is often the attacker's primary target.
Auditorium
Most Imperial cities have at least one auditorium, where the populace assemble
at great rallies organized by the Administratum and the Inquisition. A visiting dignitary, such as an lnquisitor or a Space Marine commander, will often be requested to lead such rally, it is common practice to use the main auditorium - if it still stands - to announce the 'liberation' of a city by one side or the other.
Castra Exercitus
According to the provisions of the Codex Excercitus, every imperial world has a duty to raise and maintain its own planetary defense force. Additionally, each city or world forms part of a precinct where Imperial laws are enforced by the Judges of the Adeptus Arbites. One or more barracks will be found in most lmperial cities, providing accommodation, training areas and armories for the forces they house Much fighting has centered around these strongholds.
Chapel
Chapels are found throughout the lmperium. and this is a typical example from a world of medieval or higher technology. On many worlds which have fallen to the force of Horus, chapels have been desecrated and torn down: on some Traitor worlds they have even been turned over to the feral-world cults favored by the Warmaster and his followers, in such a case the Inquisition normally demands the chapel's complete destruction.
Cellarion
No world is an island within the Imperium; each gains something from the rest of the galaxy, and each must pay its way. The worlds of the imperium provide foodstuffs. machinery, minerals and many other things according to their resources. Few Imperial cities are without vast warehouse complexes where these goods are collected ready for shipment to other areas and worlds, and where incoming goods are placed ready for distribution.
Censorium
Countless clerks and officials labor on a million worlds for the Administratum. Most of them confined to dark offices in grim, towering administrative blocks. These buildings house vast quantities of information on their worlds; population, economy, levels of production and taxation, resources, industrial and agricultural quotas — the whole of the world is recorded, filed, indexed and updated by an army of bureaucrats. The valuable data in a Censorium can make it a prime target.
Generatorium
A city or industrial complex requires vast quantities of energy, and power supplies are favorite target for attacking forces. The nature of a generator will vary from world to world. Fertile planets often use organic or fossil fuels, while fusion grids and plasma reactors are common on industrialized worlds. Solar generators and geothermal energy are also used where local conditions permit. These power sources, and the secrets of their operation. are jealously guarded by the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Genetorium
Most planets in the lmperium maintain a gene-pool of plant and animal species for terraforming, agriculture, resource management and other purposes. Native species are studied with a view to assessing their usefulness elsewhere, and introduced species are bioengineered to adapt them for use in local conditions. The scientists of the Adeptus Mechanicus who run these establishments also monitor the genetic purity of the planet's population, and co-operate with the Inquisition in their task of rooting out mutation and other undesirable traits.
Librarium
During the terrible wars of the Age of Strife, untold quantities of knowledge were lost. and preserving that which remains has become a holy task shared by the Administratum and the Adeptus Mechanicus. ln many of the larger cities of the more advanced Imperial worlds, an imposing Librarium building will house thousands of books and records, and make them available to those lmperial servant whose rank entitles them to access.
Manufactorium
Although much technology was lost during the fifteen centuries of the Age of Strife. the lmperium is by no means technically backwards, industrial complexes across the galaxy produce billions of items, from clothing to plasma bombs. All of these installations are closely controlled by the Administratum and the Adeptus Mechanicus, and it is not uncommon for the workers in a factory to be completely unaware of the end-product of their labors. The occupation or destruction of the Manufactorium or industrial complex can deny precious resources to the enemy.
Mausoleum
For the vast bulk of the citizens of the lmperium, death is not the end of their service to the Emperor. They are quickly forgotten by everyone except the record-keepers of the Administratum and their bodies are recycled into foodstuffs, fertilizers, and other useful products More prominent members of society may receive the honor of entombment in an imperial mausoleum, where the masses may read of their deeds and be inspired by their example With its halls of entombed heroes, a mausoleum can become the focus of a fanatical defense, and its destruction can deal a severe blow to the defender’s morale.
Residential
The population of the lmperium is vast, and only the Administratum has the means to begin to estimate it. The bulk of this population lives in cities, ranging from the huge complexes of the hive worlds to the smaller garden cities of the more advanced agricultural worlds and the grim tenements of the industrial worlds. While worlds and cities may differ, the residential blocks follow limited number of standard patterns laid down by the Standard Template Construct.
Living space in the cities varies widely according to wealth and social standing. Most people live in residential blocks of one kind or another, but the living space permitted to an individual can range from a spacious luxury apartment to a cramped and filthy cubby-hole with barely room to turn round. According to the type of world on which it is found and the status of its occupants, a residential block can house a few down or several thousand.
more recent fluff and fiction have given us set names for some of that.. "rockcrete' being a sort of space-concrete which seems to be made using whatever stone like raw material is on hand (i personalyl suspect it is a kind of vitrified material, made by melting rocks, coral, ash etc down and pouring it into place.), Ceramite being a strong durable super-ceramic that gets used for armor, as well as an alternative to metal in structural frameworks, and so on. personally i tend to assume that the same lore holds, and the various named materials are just the designations for STC derived processes that can be fed with all sorts of raw materials.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/07/10 04:26:42
Automatically Appended Next Post: A ruined auditorium could be a great bit of terrain, not sure why I never thought of that before. It has a similar distribution of large, open rooms and dense terrain as a cathedral or church, but is a less common alternative.
I'm imaging something a bit like a Greco-Roman theatre surrounded by a ruined theatre complex with a badly damaged, mostly collapsed roof.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/10 08:37:00
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
This article on zone mortalis boards has some interesting ideas. I especially like the one about the shipping container stacks at a cargo port or warehouse. That is certainly something that would be fairly common in hive cities, its a location that both gangs and military forces would inevitably end up fighting over (gangs over whats in some of the crates, military forces over controlling the port or warehouse)
