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So I am throwing together a little list for a fun game this saturday. My main concern is that I am putting too many points into TWC. A unit of 4 TWC (3 storm shields, 2 claws, 1 hammer, 1 maul) with an iron priest +2 wolves and a wolf priest to go with it. That just seems like a seriously massive investment for a single unit. Sure they should tear anything they touch apart, but I feel like I don't have enough units turn 1.
I also have 5GH in stormwolf, axe/shield dread in pod, void claws, helfrost dread and a lone wolf.

Is that unit overkill? I was thinking of dropping the Thunderhammer because I have an iron priest, but I keep reading tactics about having the IP split off and assault something on his own.

Too many toys, not enough boys.

I would drop some of the weapons, you have way too many upgrades.

Maybe 4 TWC, 2 Shield, 1 Fist, 1 Claw (or something similar)

I would also drop some weapons on the TWC, use SS+chainsword on 2 of them, then 1 maul and 1 hammer (or fist). I would probably also do away with the Void Claws (they are cool, and the reserve boost they give is good, but still they are so vulnerable, and will do nothing in your first turn). With them dropping in your opponent's face they will likely be the first target (good in some ways of course, but it may be a bit of an expensive unit to throw away as bait, and you also lose the reserve manipulation when they die).

If you have more drop pods I would instead use min sized GH units (4+WGPL with melta or plasma) in drop pods (2 with GH, 1 with dread) and put the Lone wolf in the Stormwolf (I think you have a free FA slot for it?). You might even have some points left to add another Lone wolf or something else.

If you give the LW TDA, he can drop in too.

Yeah, my models are a bit lacking and I am suffering from awesome overload. There are a lot of things in the book I want to run, specific builds, but I don't own enough models. I have a single drop pod built, another in box that I could probably get up and running by the weekend. Lone wolf is in TDA, fully decked up with melta bomb, shield and claw.

Maybe I should keep the TWC on the shelf for this game. The only tactics I see posted are all TWC or nothing. The points about void claws are well understood, the unit costs almost as much as the TWC unit and isn't as good.

My models are in a strange place. I have like 4 dreadnoughts, about 60 infantry, 8 or so TDA, an assortment of priests and 6 TWC. Then the 2 pods and fyer. The match will just be a fun match so I am not looking for anything crazy. This is my first time with an imperial/power armor army after a few years of daemons and necrons. I forget the durability that a +3 can give, and I am sure I will forget the vulnerability not having FNP, res, or invul will give.

So here are two other types of lists I am thinking of.
Same bike wolf priest
2 TDA decked out lone wolves
dual auto cannon dread
Axe/shield in pod/locator becon
Helfrost dred
TWC: fist, claw, maul, 2 shields
10GH, 2 plasma with dedicated flyer (probably wont start in it)
7GH with 1 melta

I could also run 50 GH (30 with chainswords), 2 dreadnoughts, 1 rune priest and 3 lone wolves. There would be TDA pack leaders in 3 of the units.

Honestly I just am not 100% about much with what I have, so I feel like I should just dive in with a list.
Ill make 3 or 4 lists tonight and post them in the army lists section and link for feedback.


Back on tactical, now that the book has been out, helfrost cannons, yes or no? Are they pretty boss on dreadnoughts? Outside of anything on a thunderwolf, what do you feel like is a really awesome unit?

Oh, Why would I ever put extra armor on a vehicle these days? Stunned and shaken are pretty much the same if you are not a flyer.

I say just dive in. When you go in with the attitude that you could lose horribly, it's not a big deal when you do.

I just ran a mostly grey hunters list at a big tournament. 40 grey hunters, TDA pack leader (soaking up wounds), 2 squads of long fangs and 2 rune priests buffing everyone. I didn't do too badly because it was maelstrom. I could spread out, take objectives, and have models standing at the end.

My army for an 1850 Friday:

In response to your last points; yes! Hellfrost is amazing. Against low Str armies like Tau and Eldar/Dark Eldar it'll clean up their characters quick smart.

I never take extra armour. I think it's useless.

Harald (2 Wolves)
BC (10) with Flamer in Stormwolf (TL-MM)
GH (5) with CCW and Wolf Standard in Stormwolf (TL-MM)
GH (5) with Melta in Rhino
TWC (4) with SS/WC, SS/CCW, PF/BP, BP/CCW
Long Fangs (5) with 3 ML/Lascannon
Long Fangs (6) with 4 ML/Lascannon

Bastion with Void/Comm Relay

Coteaz
Xenos with Rad, Liber and 3 Servos

1850 on the nose.

Rad/Liber shenanigans:
- Attach to TWC for Scout, Rad and/or Hatred. With rad, this squad gets hilarious. Too bad Inquisitors can't get bikes.
- Join the Blood Claws for Rad Shenanigans and Give them Hatred.

Army picture looks great.

That list. Seems pretty good. Wolf standard on 5 GH is a waste. For 25 points you want to get maximum effect out of it. Take 10. From my experience (I've taken a wolf standard every game since the codex dropped), the unit carrying the standard often ends up being the only unit that benefits from the +1 attack. It just comes down to the enemies units being spread out or units are needed elsewhere on the battlefield.

I think the Standard is there to provide second wind in the mid/late game to his other units (6" doesn't seem like much, but in assault you're always bunched up) and those GH actually have 20 attacks on the charge. From 5 MEQ costing 105 points. It's a really good Stormwolf loudout, both buffing the squad, saving points for more boys or toys elsewhere and it's a decent force multiplier if you have a fast army that can wolfpack units on one side of the board then do the same on the other.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So I am throwing together a little list for a fun game this saturday. My main concern is that I am putting too many points into TWC. A unit of 4 TWC (3 storm shields, 2 claws, 1 hammer, 1 maul) with an iron priest +2 wolves and a wolf priest to go with it. That just seems like a seriously massive investment for a single unit. Sure they should tear anything they touch apart, but I feel like I don't have enough units turn 1.
I also have 5GH in stormwolf, axe/shield dread in pod, void claws, helfrost dread and a lone wolf.

Is that unit overkill? I was thinking of dropping the Thunderhammer because I have an iron priest, but I keep reading tactics about having the IP split off and assault something on his own.

Regarding your TWC...the IP and WP already give you a maul and Strength 10 AP1. I think your hammer and maul points would be better spent on another model (or two, if you ditch some of the other upgrades). I used a unit of 4 TWC at a recent tourney and though it wasn't hyper-competitive it didn't do too badly, but the whole game I couldn't help but feel it would have been better with a few more ablative wounds here or there. (Side note: In the last round I attached my TDA Wolf Lord to the unit and walked, pulled the slingshot tactic, it helped a lot and was cheaper than a full-blown Wolf Lord).

The Banner has its' uses. It adds attacks to things that are generally already beatsticks if they are nearby, so it can be a real force multiplier. My Wolf Lord and my Axe Dread sometimes get 6 attacks on the charge because of it (it does affect all friendly Space Wolf units, I think...right?). My best result has been putting it into a unit in a pod, with a couple of big characters in it. Adding an extra attack for a Wolf Lord is nothing to sneeze at, and saving points on the GH themselves to give them CCWs means 4 attacks per model. This is pretty mean. To me the banner is almost a must-take because of the buff to the hard-hitters. The 6-inch bubble only has to touch one model in a unit for the whole unit to get the benefit.

I salivate at the inevitable day when my TWC or Blood Claws wander near the banner in-game.

 Araenion wrote:
I think the Standard is there to provide second wind in the mid/late game to his other units (6" doesn't seem like much, but in assault you're always bunched up) and those GH actually have 20 attacks on the charge. From 5 MEQ costing 105 points. It's a really good Stormwolf loudout, both buffing the squad, saving points for more boys or toys elsewhere and it's a decent force multiplier if you have a fast army that can wolfpack units on one side of the board then do the same on the other.

Exactly this. With the unit in the Stormwolf, they have a very large wolf standard footprint and I can get it anywhere I want turn 2 (+1 Attack for TWC, don't mind if I do.) And, as Araenion said, 20 attacks on the charge is not chump change.

Yeah, the WS is really a toolbox unit in the Stormwolf. Go where it is needed to give extra attacks/rerolls on morale (very cool with Blood claws as well. 5 Attacks each is crazy.)

Would Ulrik's PE/Stubborn bubble work from the Stormwolf? That'd be a pretty impressive Buffboat.

 Araenion wrote:
Would Ulrik's PE/Stubborn bubble work from the Stormwolf? That'd be a pretty impressive Buffboat.

Of course. That was actually in my first list 2x10 BC in Stormwolves with Ulrik in one plus a Steel Host. Basically everything in my army had PE.

So I'm looking at putting together an 1850 point list along these lines...

Champions of Fenris

Harald Deathwolf
1x Fenrisian wolf

Wolf Lord
TWM - Runic armor - Storm shield - Power fist
1x Fenrisian wolf

Iron Priest
TWM
4x Cyber Wolf

Servitor

4x TWC
4x Storm shield - 2x Wolf claw - 2x Power fist
Pack Leader - Meltabombs

Rune Priest
Level 2 - Bike - Runic armor - Meltabombs

4x Grey Hunter
Meltagun - Power Axe - Plasma pistol
Terminator Wolf Guard - Storm shield - Wolf claw - Meltabombs
Drop Pod


- White Scars

Chapter Master
Bike - Artificer armor - Shield Eternal - Power fist

3x Biker
2x Grav Gun
Attack Bike - Multi-melta
Sergeant - Meltabombs

3x Biker
2x Grav Gun
Attack Bike - Multi-melta
Sergeant - Meltabombs

Lots of 2+ armor in the star. I was thinking about taking a biker Wolf Priest over the Rune Priest for PE, 6+ FNP and fearless. Thoughts ?

Haven't got my codex on me but I don't think servitors take a FOC spot if you an IP?

This is my alpha strike list designed to create a threat overload by scouting melta bikes, thunderwolves and poding cents.
It is in your face T1 and delivers lots of grav and melta and a close combat star that can possibly take on anything.
It is designed to counter Knights, serpents and maybe deathstars (before powering up hopefully).

+ HQ +

* Wolf Priest w Pelt of Balewolf

+ Elites +

* Iron Priest w thunderwolf mounts (x2)

+ Fast Attack +

* Drop Pod (x2)

* Thunderwolf Cavalry, Storm Shield, meltabombs (x4)

+ HQ +

* Kor'Sarro Khan

+ Troops +

* Bike Squad (x3)
2x Meltagun, 4x Space Marine Biker
* Biker Sergeant, Melta Bombs

* Tactical Squad melta, combi melta, melta bombs, dpod

+ Heavy Support

* Centurion Devastator Squad 3 gravguns (x2)

Fought the tournament today with the following list. I got 2 major victories (1 vs Triptide Farsight Enclaves!!!), 1 minor victory and a major loss (5x Wave Serpents and 2x Wraithknights... yeah). EDIT: Found out that I came in 6th out of 26, so not bad at all, considering that I was the only Wolves player representing.

HQ
Rune Priest (ML2, Psychic Hood)
Rune Priest (ML2, Psychic Hood)

TROOPS
5x Grey Hunters (Plasmagun, Rhino)
5x Grey Hunters (Plasmagun, Rhino)
5x Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Rhino)
5x Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Rhino)
5x Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Rhino)

FAST ATTACK
3x TWC (PF/BP, 2x CCW/SS)
3x TWC (TH/SS, WC/SS, CCW/SS)
5x Skyclaws (2x Meltaguns)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Vindicator (Storm Bolter)
Vindicator (Storm Bolter)

TOTAL: 1500pts

I liked the list, but I'd ditch the Rune Priests for Ulrik or something more reliable. They were basically useless in every game, and only got off a power 1/2 or 1/3 of the time. The Skyclaws were okay for a suicide squad, but they didn't get a lot of opportunities to actually kill anything. They basically captured 1 objective, soaked up a lot of fire and killed a Hammerhead, so not awful but not amazing either. I could also lose them for a TWC Iron Priest I think.

But yeah, outflanking Rhinos with master of ambush is full of win, I tank shocked a Riptide, a huge Crisis team and 3 Missilesides off with lowly Rhinos, and almost knocked another Ridtide off as well (1 more inch...). MSU definitely seems like the way to go for a competitive list, especially if you're not running allies.

Bummed to hear about the Rune priest Andilus, but awesome to hear about the victory. I FINALLY got games in with my wolves, and damn they were sweet. Not tournaments, though we did walk in right before a tournament started and were asked for our lists, so they could be rated, that lead to some confusion.

I was running 2 lists, but I had void claws and TWC in both. First against guard, I tried the sword/board dreadnought and forgot about the invul so I positioned poorly, still managed to barely survive and assault a leman russ tank squadron, killing both pask and a demolisher russ. TWC and 2 void claws hit a unit of like 40 conscripts and reduced them to a tiny puddle of blood, so hat was satisfying. The Stormwolf is Awesome, holy damn it is amazing.

Second list there was no stormwolf, but used a wolf lord in TWC instead of wolf priest on bike. Damn I missed that preferred enemy more than anything else. The lord was a powerhouse, but even with like 7 attacks on the charge or whatever, he wiffed against an ork warboss, who then scored 3 wounds and I failed a save, and was instagibbed. Not saying wolf priest would have done better, but the TWC unit as a whole would have done better. The rest of the TWC rolled crap against the nobs as well. They absolutely annihilated some boys though. Void claws charged a big unit of boys, I failed freaking 5 out of 10 saves in TDA.
Game went really poorly for me, it was kill points. At the end of the day he had a walker (which was apparently a proxy for a FW walker he forgot to mention) and a runt herder. I had a riflemen dread. The game ended and we totalled it up, 11-9. I only won because he had so many more units and ICs in his army.

Some thoughts after both games.

Stormwolf is best flyer, A#1. Flew in, blasted a russ, then unloaded cargo into assault, cool beans.

Riflemen dreadnoughts are cool, I never considered how useful it could be. Then I thought about annihilation barges (which are better in almost every way, but still) and it did pretty well.

Thunderwolves are awesome, but I need to pick my targets better, and the wolf priest is a really big help. A prescience rune priest might prove to be the biggest help though. I will try that next game.

Void claws, the re-roll reserves is tits up awesome, but they are really expensive. I see it as a really fun unit, but not too competitive.

Helfrost. I missed my dreadnoughts helfrost 3 turns in a row. When it hit it was pretty cool though. Used the small blast and froze a big mek to death. Will probably give it to bjorn when I bring him.

Grey hunters, with CC, or without CC. Still unsure. I plan on building my lists with them with CC untill I think I need points somewhere else. I mean, how many other units in the game would pay 2pt for a bonus attack? Just about everyone outside guardsmen and tau I think.

After some testing on Vassal, I think I finally settled on what models to purchase for my SW list. It goes:

HQ:
Ulrik the Slayer - 145
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Armour of Russ, TWM, PF/WC, 2x Wolves - 196

Troops:
5 GH: Wolf Standard - 105
5 GH: Plasmagun, WGPL: Combi-plasma, Drop Pod - 140
10 GH: 8x CCW, 2x meltaguns, Drop Pod - 211
10 GH: 9x CCW, 2x meltaguns, Drop Pod - 213

Elites:
Iron Priest: TWM, 4x Cyberwolves - 165
Lone Wolf: Terminator Armour, Combi-plasma, Power Fist - 65
Lone Wolf: Terminator Armour, Combi-plasma, Power Fist - 65

FA:
4 TWC: SS/WC/MB, PF/BP, SS/BP/MB, Frost Sword/BP - 265

HS:
Land Raider Redeemer: MM - 250

Total: 1850

The GH with the Standard and Ulrik stay in the Redeemer and give a Stubborn/PE/+1 attack bubble 6"/12" all around the Raider. TWC stand up front and the melta Hunters are dropping first turn to try and difuse the most immediate threat. The Plasma Hunters and the Lone Wolves are here as mid/late game mopping up units, once my army is in the thick of it, they're there as second wind.

The biggest flaw of the list is no AA. If I could get some reliable reserve manipulation, I'd get a Stormwolf instead of the Raider, but without it, it's too much of a risk, in my opinion. Thoughts?

EDIT: Or perhaps this is a better list of the two:

HQ:
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Runic Armour, TWM, SS/WC , 2x Wolves - 176
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Runic Armour, TWM, SS/WC , 2x Wolves - 176

Troops:
5 GH: Wolf Standard, 5x CCW, Flamer - 110
Dedicated Stormwolf: TL MM - 235
10 GH: 9x CCW, 2x meltaguns, Drop Pod - 213
10 GH: 10x CCW, 2x meltaguns, Drop Pod - 215

FA:
Drop Pod - 35
5 TWC: SS/WC/MB, WC/WC/MB, PF/BP, PF/BP, SS/BP/MB - 345
5 TWC: SS/WC/MB, WC/WC/MB, PF/BP, PF/BP, SS/BP/MB - 345

Total: 1850

I'm guessing that above would be a pretty dang competitive list.

 Araenion wrote:

The biggest flaw of the list is no AA. If I could get some reliable reserve manipulation, I'd get a Stormwolf instead of the Raider, but without it, it's too much of a risk, in my opinion. Thoughts?

Wolves unleashed detachment and/or voidclaws.

Void claws are very expensive and vulnerable, while Unleashed keeps me away from OBS. The closest reliable solution is to grab Eldar allies with a Mantarch, because his reserve roll modification is army-wide, regardless of ally status.

Get a cheap fort with Comm Relay.

I second the Bunker with the Comms Relay. You can also take an ammo dump/store for it and let your Long Fangs re-roll 1s.

Honestly, if I took the Bastion with Coms, I'd put it on an objective with 5 GH shooting those nice Heavy Bolters while scoring.

What do you guys say on the 2nd list? I'm itching to have a deadhard assault army after my shooty Eldar. And the only thing I want them to have in common is crazy mobility.

Everything's scoring now, including the bastion.

The bastion is a good idea. Objective secured isn't as big a deal as people think. If your army kicks ass you can just kill things off objectives.

I don't know why you would ever take a bastion when the Bunker is available for less points with most of the same benefits. It even occasionally can't be seen in LOS because of its small size.

Bastion provides better LOS and has emplaced weapons.