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Noir wrote:
Or go KoW and not worry about, if your army will be removed from the system your playing.

Do you have any reason to say that Mantic won't ever remove support for armies?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

bitethythumb wrote:
...on summoning...

That's a really good rebuttal. I had not thought about any of that. I guess it raises hope that with scenarios the game might become more fleshed out.

I'm sort of on the fence about the game though. My buddy and I both pretty much agreed that unless buying the new stuff coming out (Sigmarines or the not warriors of chaos warriors of chaos), there isn't much incentive to buy anything right now. My understanding of the first AoS book is that the scenarios are only for the two new factions. That is worrying for the game going forward.

I'm presently debating selling off all of my chaos dwarfs for a clean slate. I do feel a bit dirty at the prospect of making a new big investment from GW after their invalidating my existing army as a supported thing. A part of me is debating simply leaving gaming. Warhammer was my toe in the sand holding me from drifting away on the current. Now it's done...

Don't leave wargaming. Outside the GW bubble its a golden age of gaming. There are so many awesome games from companies that don't actually despise you.

No, don't leave gaming. It's too much fun and too exciting to quit.
I'd go for WMH, Infinity, Xwing, or BA. They are almost equally played in our area.
We need your input and insights here.

Rihgu wrote:

Noir wrote:
Or go KoW and not worry about, if your army will be removed from the system your playing.

Do you have any reason to say that Mantic won't ever remove support for armies?

Yes, I do. It is funny what you learn when you keep up with more then one company.

Noir wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Noir wrote:
Or go KoW and not worry about, if your army will be removed from the system your playing.

Do you have any reason to say that Mantic won't ever remove support for armies?

Yes, I do. It is funny what you learn when you keep up with more then one company.

Okay, then. Could you please share it, then? I know that condescending is fun and all, but I can also say I have reasons to say Mantic will. Unless I provide them it's meaningless.

Rihgu wrote:

Noir wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Noir wrote:
Or go KoW and not worry about, if your army will be removed from the system your playing.

Do you have any reason to say that Mantic won't ever remove support for armies?

Yes, I do. It is funny what you learn when you keep up with more then one company.

Okay, then. Could you please share it, then? I know that condescending is fun and all, but I can also say I have reasons to say Mantic will. Unless I provide them it's meaningless.

You can look it up if you want, it buried in the internet likely next to GW saying they will not squat any more armies. I not going to waste my time look for either, but I know what one I'll belive. Until they prove otherwise.

So, you don't have any reasons, then. Okay, thanks.

Just got to love the "I know why, but won't tell you, go find out and see I am right". That doesn't prove anything. You don't even have to dig anything out as you say, just say why you think. Simple as that.

Can't prove your point? Then don't say anything, otherwise you look wrong.

As someone who watched Fantasy from afar whilst playing 40K I found the old model of blocks of infantry less than appealing, it seemed more of a block shuffle with limited posing allowed in modelling choices in the interests of ensuring your models ranked up. The strategy of things like flank charging and overunning looked cool though I wasnt ready to commit financially to a very "samey" looking unit.

With the release of Age of Sigmar and transfer to a model but model movement/fighting system and round basing I found it far more appelaing from a modelling perspective and with a low model count force and the greater ability to customise based on how models "should" look to me rather than ranking up I've actually bitten the bullet and started a Giant-kin themed force.

Having played a few games with the AoS core game i found it quick and fun to play, though the base rules are very simplistic I found alot of opponents forget the rules within their own warscrolls (weapon ranges, bonuses for numbers, unit leaders, unit special rules) which may be rectified with more experience with their units.

To summarise, as a non-fantasy player AoS gives me a modelling fix and a fun second game to play )40K Primary) and has let me make a Giant-kin force which I think is awesome.

Whilst not the best skirmish game on the market I do believe there is a cracking game lurking inside AoS, there are some neat parts to it it needs some decent rule writers love and another 4 pages to iron out the ambiguity. A better magic system wouldn't hurt either.

The background is alright, I wish they'd pushed further away from old wfb to be honest. If it's been so long between the old world and AoS why are skaven still armed as they are? I'd have pushed for a new really unique set of factions and wiped away the past totally.

I think they've really shot themselves in the foot by sticking the rules and warscrolls inside the books as it prevents them from having a living ruleset that's easily modified without reprinting massive amounts of material.

Unlike many others I like the stormcast eternals, the blend of norse and Greek mythology and the Renaissance-esque Christian artwork really floats my boat.

I am hoping after all the rage and people are calmer and further on (unless it dies) GW will start expanding the warscrolls BEYOND just the typical armies, I think with AoS they are no longer limited to just releasing typical units for each of the basic races... nothing stops them from say releasing an undead fish people of some kind or aelfen demons or insectoid types, which people have all more or less wanted of some kind in WHFB (and there have been hints for all of them like I belive an underwater race has always been in the lore somewher).. AoS allows the GW miniature designers to really flourish, I do hope they take advantage of that... fimir anyone?

Rihgu wrote:
So, you don't have any reasons, then. Okay, thanks.

Thats not what he said.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
So, you don't have any reasons, then. Okay, thanks.

Thats not what he said.

You are correct. He said that he had reasons. What he showed was that he did not.

Rihgu wrote:
So, you don't have any reasons, then. Okay, thanks.

All drama aside, it's as simple as this. Abyssal Dwarves are one of the main races of Kings of War. Not only is a preview portion of their army list with 14 available units downloadable for free from Mantic, alongside the others and the core rules, they will have those army entries and their full list (with 10 additional units on top of the free 14) included in the upcoming rulebook for KoW 2.0 at the end of the month, alongside 10 (I think?) other full armylists.

Proof they won't squat an army? Because they are also releasing a half dozen other army lists to be analogues of the main WHFB factions (Like Empire, Lizardmen, Beastmen and Ratlings so that absolutely every Warhammer player can bring over their armies and play KoW.

The only "main" race that does not have a free army list yet is the Dark Elves, who are still being tweaked. But even then they exist on a beta list in spreadsheet form on the Mantic forums, which is listed as fully tournament legal despite not being in the main free factions- just with the disclaimer that some units/stats may change a bit when the real list is finished.

I can provide links if anyone wants but doesn't want to dig on the Mantic forums., as I have been doing extensive research on KoW after finally looking into their rules for my 15mm army project and to plan out any upcoming Gencon purchases towards that end. Also to see if a newly discovered LGS might be interested in continuing Warhammer Fantasy in such a way as opposed to AoS in 28mm, or if any of them would be interested in the game as a 15mm side game, even if I had to use any 15mm armies I might build for demo games.

I don't know how much more proof there can be. It's much more info than you would ever get from GW on the subject, where who the hell knows how many of the original WHFB races will essentially be squatted in AoS.

Thanks for responding!

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
So, you don't have any reasons, then. Okay, thanks.

Simple as this. Abyssal Dwarves are one of the main races of Kings of War. Not only is a preview portion of their army list downloadable for free from Mantic, alongside the others and the core rules, they will have their full list included in the upcoming rulebook for KoW 2.0 at the end of the month, alongside 11 other full armylists.

Okay, so it's not likely that Abyssal Dwarves will be removed, but how about the side races? Like the Beastmen or Tomb Kings standins? They're not main races (yet, at least) so they aren't offered the same protection as Abyssal Dwarves.

Proof they won't squat an army? Because they are also releasing a half dozen other army lists to be analogues of the main WHFB factions (Like Empire, Lizardmen, Beastmen and Ratlings so that absolutely every Warhammer player can bring over their armies and play KoW.

Releasing rules to nab 'refugees' from a similar game system doesn't mean that they won't take back those armies when they're satisfied that they've pulled in enough people. They *might* indefinitely support all of these armies, but whose to say that they won't come out and say "We aren't going to be supporting the rules for the Lizardmen any more as we don't intend to release any models for the army and do not see the investment of maintaining the rules for an army we make no money off of to be worth the effort. If you wish to continue using Lizardmen models in your Kings of War games, you can still use the rules for any of our other armies with your models."?

I don't see any reason to take their word for it (if they've even come out and said that they will indefinitely support all armies). I also see no reason to not believe them, if I'm being perfectly honest.

It seems to me thatif you wanted to switch systems for a "guarantee" of never having your army squatted, you'd switch to a system with an analog of your faction already well cemented in the game system/lore rather than switch to a system with a faction built entirely to get you to play their system.

 Melcavuk wrote:

With the release of Age of Sigmar and transfer to a model but model movement/fighting system and round basing I found it far more appelaing from a modelling perspective and with a low model count force and the greater ability to customise based on how models "should" look to me rather than ranking up I've actually bitten the bullet and started a Giant-kin themed force.

Very cool! As a 40k player who tried to dabble in fantasy and was put off by the high model count needed, I feel Age of Sigmar has a similar appeal to me as well.

In particular, I think the lack of army structure rules frees me up to create armies I have always thought would be cool thematically, but which were impossible to do before.

Take the Goblin army for example - within the Orc & Goblin list are three models that I think look really cool together. That is, the Goblin Big Boss on Spider, Spider Riders, and the Arachnarok giant spider. The Goblins on spiders are depicted very differently from their plain or night goblin cousins, with feathers and primitive totems and such all over their bodies, indicating a much more tribal and feral existence than the rest of their generic kin. (A lot like how Savage Orcs are in relation to plain Orcs)

Now, I think it would be cool if the various Chaos invasions led to a burning of the forest within which a given spider worshiping tribe of goblins lived, forcing them to abandon their home on spider-back, and ride off into the canyons of the desert, where their spiders cling to the underside of cliffs and outcrops, and weave temporary encampments for their Goblin cohorts. When the time is right, they ride out as a cavalry raiding force, looting mortal settlements for food and treasure, while putting Chaos encampments to the torch. This makes them the enemy and the ally of the forces of order, depending on the situation, but ultimately they are their own people, and dream of the day they may return to the dark and green shelter of the forest.

That list just doesn't work in any previous version of WFB, unless they're attached to a larger and more traditional army, and even then I've been cautioned that Wolf Riders are just plain better under most versions of the army book. In AOS, there's nothing stopping a force from like this from being played, and further won't take more than a handful of spider rider boxes and a few special models to accomplish.

The idea of unique, characterful armies, at a price I can reasonably afford, is enough to make me give the game a chance.

Rihgu wrote:
What he showed was that he did not.

Again, that's not what he did.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
What he showed was that he did not.

Again, that's not what he did.

you are right, he simply failed to provide any proof when asked for it and his excuse is "look for it yourself".

hey did you know GW is giving anyone who spends £100 quid in their store free stuff? look it up

It's impossible to prove that Mantic will never squat an army because nobody can see into the future. However given their past actions it is unlikely they will do so right now. Whereas the term "squatting" as it pertains to getting rid of an entire model line from the game actually comes from GW.

Abyssal Dwarves are one of Mantic's core factions and for that reason they are unlikely to be discontinued any time soon. I would say Lizardmen or Beastmen are less sure, but still likely to be supported for the entirety of 2nd edition, which should last a good few years at least. Better than nothing.

Played a scenario out of the book. Limited to 80 wounds for each starting force. WoC chewed through Bretonnia due to summoning/slaves of darkness reserve rolls. However, if we'd had no cap on wounds, he could have deployed in a U shape around me, taking up almost the entire table. I would have had 1/6th of the table (ambush game). Requesting using the Azyr rules Mikhaila was given from now on. Yes, I won. But I want limitations. I didn't bring any models on that could continue summoning, and I still ended with 4 new DPs in addition to my starting force.

Rihgu wrote:
Thanks for responding!

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
So, you don't have any reasons, then. Okay, thanks.

Simple as this. Abyssal Dwarves are one of the main races of Kings of War. Not only is a preview portion of their army list downloadable for free from Mantic, alongside the others and the core rules, they will have their full list included in the upcoming rulebook for KoW 2.0 at the end of the month, alongside 11 other full armylists.

Okay, so it's not likely that Abyssal Dwarves will be removed, but how about the side races? Like the Beastmen or Tomb Kings standins? They're not main races (yet, at least) so they aren't offered the same protection as Abyssal Dwarves.

Proof they won't squat an army? Because they are also releasing a half dozen other army lists to be analogues of the main WHFB factions (Like Empire, Lizardmen, Beastmen and Ratlings so that absolutely every Warhammer player can bring over their armies and play KoW.

Releasing rules to nab 'refugees' from a similar game system doesn't mean that they won't take back those armies when they're satisfied that they've pulled in enough people. They *might* indefinitely support all of these armies, but whose to say that they won't come out and say "We aren't going to be supporting the rules for the Lizardmen any more as we don't intend to release any models for the army and do not see the investment of maintaining the rules for an army we make no money off of to be worth the effort. If you wish to continue using Lizardmen models in your Kings of War games, you can still use the rules for any of our other armies with your models."?

I don't see any reason to take their word for it (if they've even come out and said that they will indefinitely support all armies). I also see no reason to not believe them, if I'm being perfectly honest.

It seems to me thatif you wanted to switch systems for a "guarantee" of never having your army squatted, you'd switch to a system with an analog of your faction already well cemented in the game system/lore rather than switch to a system with a faction built entirely to get you to play their system.

Well, I'm not sure why you were so up in arms at other posters being snarky, as it doesn't seem like you are really all that interested in being convinced in the first place - you (seem) to have your mind made up that Mantic is somehow going to come out and epic screw the players that have switched over from WHFB by removing those armies from being played (or even core KoW armies that have been there from the start), while there's about as best a guarantee as you can get in this business that things will stay the same as they are right now with that ruleset, at least for the foreseeable future of KoW 2.0 which could be several years of gaming.

I can't see how GW can give any more proof that they will not drop a so-far existing army any more than any other company could/couldn't. I can't honestly say that any of the old WHFB armies are any safer from the chopping block than any others as they exist right now on warscrolls, except maybe Chaos Warriors/Daemons. All the other races could change drastically with little to no warning.

All I can say is that either right now, or at least soon in the future for some factions, if you like their rules, but are pissed at GW, Mantic is a way to currently keep playing WHFB-style regiment/blocks of troops fantasy gaming with the armies that everyone has bought from GW in the past.

I wasn't asking so much for my own sake, moreso for readers of this thread. It's good to have as much information as possible when making decisions so I thought that it would be helpful for people researching Mantic, especially in the wake of Age of Sigmar, to know WHY the poster I originally responded to thought the way he did.

"I think X because [reasons]" is vastly more helpful than "I think X".

And, I'm sorry for giving the impression that I think KoW *will* pull the rug out on their armies. (Like I said, I see no reason to believe that they will).

I haven't been comparing Mantic's army policy to Games Workshop's at all. A poster made a statement and I asked if they could clarify, as it seemed an unreasonable statement without proof backing it up.

To be clear on how I think GW is going: I do 100% believe that the warscrolls for all 8th edition armies WILL be phased out. I think this because the warscrolls for Tree people were originally posted as Treeman Ancient and Treeman. In the Age of Sigmar book, they're listed as Treelord Ancient and Treelord, which shows to me that the old units have been phased out (even if the rules are the same)
I expect the same for future releases (Fyreslayers replacing Slayers, for example).
I also believe that they will maintain compatibility in the same way that they ever have - you CAN use a Dark Elf swordsman model to represent an Aelf Realmguard but the rules and fluff may not fit the model any more. And I see no reason for Mantic to not do the same.

Jus to point out how absurd your argument is:

In essence, you ask for proof that it will rain next Monday.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Jus to point out how absurd your argument is:

In essence, you ask for proof that it will rain next Monday.

and the other persons statement is not absurd? he more or less said "its going to rain next week, trust me, look it up" funny how that works right..

The con census at Tokyo West Wargamers was that AoS was GW jumping the shark.(Or the introduction of "Poochy" to 'Itchy a& Scratchy', if you prefer). We're still going to be doing oldhammer (3rd ed.) and some of us kicked around the idea of getting the KoW rules to give them a test drive. If you're around here, come check us out.

To address the query of whether Mantic will drop support for any armies...

Mantic's strategy is to capture the players leaving GW because GW has canned their armies and game rules or made them too expensive to continue. Therefore to discontinue support for those armies would be logically absurd.

That does not mean that some business reason might not force Mantic to discontinue an unpopular army, but it cannot be predicted at all.

You guys are ridiculous. Fighting over semantics!

Obviously Mantic can't promise anything, nor they did - even if they carved it in a titanium slab and bolted to Washington Memorial for everyone to see they couldn't guarantee it 100% that they will continue to support the faction forever.

But if it's one of their core factions it's -extremely- unlikely for them to drop it, so it can, within the bounds of human reasoning and common sense, be taken for somewhat granted that they'll not drop the army.

With that said, you can stop your silly argument here, as it's nothing else than joyful buttslapping between the two of you right now. :'D

I feel a bit silly chiming in on this topic seeing as I’ve been extremely inactive when it comes to any GW related gaming the last few years.
It’s just that WHF has a very special place in my heart and when I heard the news about AoS I just had to get informed.

Now before I get into it let it be known that I personally have not played AoS yet, my opinions are based off reading the rules and checking out battle reports.

I fail to see how this is in any way or form a worthy replacement of WHF.
Is it supposed to be a 40k light in a fantasy setting?
The way it seems right now is extremely watered down, uninteresting ruleset and as previously mentioned by so many a complete lack of a point system.
Without a point system to work within I feel the game becomes totally pointless, you need a frame within which to work in order to attempt some form of balance.
The large amount of rules and choices within the army lists and core rules was what in my humble opinion defined WHF and made it fun, interesting and extremely replayable.

What’s the actual appeal of the game? How does it set itself apart from the other GW games? It just doesn’t feel like it has any character.
While WHF and 40K had similar rule structures and point systems they still played vastly different, one of the reasons I played both back in the day.
I guess the bottom line is; Why play a poor mans 40K (AoS), when you can play 40K right away?


For those of you who’ve made arguments about the difficulty of getting into WHF, the cost and so on.
You’re totally right, this is probably the only positive thing I see about the game right now.

The big downside of a game like WHF was the fact that it took quite a big investment, both money and timewise.
As a new player you’d have to get the rules, the army list and somehow piece together valid little 1000p army without any prior knowledge of how to build an army.
More often than not you’d learn the hard way that your army wasn’t overly balanced and you’d have to invest even more money in making sure it worked.
The latter probably isn’t a huge issue as such, you’d probably want to build towards 1500-2000p anyway, but it could probably make getting into the game a frustrating experience.

I don’t know if anyone remembers this, but there used to be a nice little ruleset for something called Warbands back in 5th or 6th edition.
Basically it would modify some basic rules in order to balance the game around playing 1-199p games and 200-500p games, this in my opinion would have been the way to go.
If they ever make a 9th edition, I hope they include this form of entry level gaming written in the core book, which gives people a great way to get started and then later on ease in to the full ruleset as people start getting in to 1500p+ teretory.

This form of gaming is something I greatly enjoyed myself even though me and my friends all had several 3000p+ armies.
It was just good fun to have a couple of less serious short games and a nice way to try out different armies.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To address the query of whether Mantic will drop support for any armies...

Mantic's strategy is to capture the players leaving GW because GW has canned their armies and game rules or made them too expensive to continue. Therefore to discontinue support for those armies would be logically absurd.

That does not mean that some business reason might not force Mantic to discontinue an unpopular army, but it cannot be predicted at all.

Given that the former GW armies are almost certainty going to be nothing more than army lists and as such easy to update I can see no reason why Mantic would ever 'Squat' any army during the life of KoW.

I tried AoS with my Skaven last week and the game was just awful we played rules as written. I think I had more fun getting a cavity filled by the dentist with no Novocain. Played 3 turns when my buddy and I decided it was enough. Could not imagine playing 6 turns of AoS. Our game was pretty much pile in the middle and roll 3 and 4's until something died. The game has the strategy of Yatzee with the fun factor of visiting your 100 year old great aunt at the nursing home.

Age of Sigmar has re-ignited my interest in the hobby.

I've played Warhammer off and on for the last 14 years or so. In the last two or three, I haven't played at all.

I checked back in to see what was new right when AoS was getting rolled out.

I'm a fan, but I understand how people would be miffed about it.

Things I like:

- Fresh start. I love fresh starts in general, and the old Warhammer world was too convoluted, too much backstory, too many models and rules for me. I like simplifying things and starting over. I never liked the old lore of the world being doomed and Chaos being all-powerful.

- New business direction. I think GW is being very smart with AoS from a business perspective. Breaking free of army books and points allows them to put out models in a much more organic fashion and not blow their load on each army once every several years. Losing points, in my opinion, is the best thing that has happened to Warhammer, as no longer are models rendered useless if their points are too much and no longer does power creep matter. I see myself buying a lot more without having to justify points.

Things I don't like:

- Lack of army building. This is where points are useful. Most gamers I know, even if they don't play a single game, spend hours coming up with army lists. This could still be done without points, and I think GW should implement a way to do so, because army building is one of the funnest parts of the hobby. I don't want points dictating army lists, but I do want ideas to build my force around, if that makes sense.

- Lack of rules clarity. Four pages of rules are great, but these four pages are not very well edited. I don't think they have a technical writer on staff. There is a combination of wasted space and lack of clarity in the rule set.

Anyway, I picked up the starter set and have been having fun painting them up. I'm not sure I can justify the price of the campaign books, but I will likely be buying new releases as they come out, because no longer do I have to worry about putting all of my resources into one army, and now I can buy pretty much whatever I like and it will have some use.