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Orks vs Guard:Guard win

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, yeah. 3 times the cost of the conscripts is fair to remove them, because they have negligible offensive output and exist for the express purpose of providing a roadblock. This is what I'm talking about.

You're upset that you have to overcommit to them to clear them out in one turn. Because guess what, equivalent cost of firepower will get rid of them in about 3 to 4 turns. About double their cost will remove them in 2 turns, which is entirely fair, yes?

Also, I'm part of the reason Sisters are at the top. Literally a quarter of the games listed here are mine [22.2%], and I won all of them.

Because you screwed up the cost, I thought sisters actually got dominions with a storm bolter for 10 points, which would be absurd, not the 12 they actually cost. So my statement was about sisters being absurdly cheap, given I thought they had 8 point dominions till i looked it up.

Second, you realize you literally no other unit is that resilient, right? It's literally just conscripts. Who, I once again remind you, are still more offensively powerful than most basic infantry units. Beat the crap out of termagaunts in resilience and firepower, while something like horrors has morale issues to actually balance them out, as well as almost no offensive power. They put out as much damage for cost as my vanguard do, roughly as much as normal SoB do as well.

The number of dominions it takes to almost kill 150 points of conscripts (actually only 120ish points dead) can wreck two full units of termagaunts, costing 240 points. Or kill around 17-18 tacticals, again in the 221-234 ish point range, assuming they were combat squaded so morale isn't an issue. Or 35 of my vanguard, for a solid 350 points killed. Note that the vanguard are the only unit here who actually outperform conscripts offensively, both termagaunts and normal tacticals do less damage than their equivalent in conscripts.

So... no that's not what any other army pays for bodies. It isn't even close. Even other cheap infantry who contribute as much or less than conscripts do for their value don't take that much to kill.

Also, oh yes, oops, it's 60-points a squad. I went back and corrected it.

Vanguard aren't tough units. Vanguard are offensive units. Not all units are tough, not all units are killy. If your vanguard could sustain as much fire as Concripts, and remain effective, they'd be broken as all hell.

Conscripts offensive output is terrible. Maximizing their offensive output eliminates their defensive value, for one. That's another thing nobody accounts for, the fact that the 50 guys are spread out in a 48" long line, 1.5" apart.


Tacticals shouldn't even come close to conscripts in toughness. Dedicated firepower should remove way more points of any space marine unit that it does of Conscripts, because, with the exception of Cenobyte Servitors, just about every Space Marine unit is 8 times more destructive than a conscript. Tacticals average, at range, 2/3^3 against Conscripts, while a Conscript averages 1/3^3 against Tacticals, Makes sense why Conscripts are more efficient? They paid for all the toughness and none of the firepower, while Space Marines paid for some toughness and some firepower.


Here's the secret: There is no Space Marine unit that pays for bodies without also playing for some firepower, therefore you will never have a unit as good as Conscripts at getting bodies for points. Take, for example Ork boyz. They're like Conscripts, but they have a lot more firepower, particularly in assault. Therefore, they're 6 points. An Ork boy is as resilient as a Conscript, actually, because of the +1T, but puts out about 12 times the amount of damage in melee as a Conscript does at optimum range [both without buffs]. However, because they boy is optimized for melee combat, and the conscript can benefit from a few buffs, he doesn't cost 36 points, he costs 6. See?

Why are your conscripts spread out like that. It makes them useless as a bubblewrap with the new charge rules..

 Quickjager wrote:
Why are your conscripts spread out like that. It makes them useless as a bubblewrap with the new charge rules..

What do you mean?

In Hammer and Anvil deployment the other day, I made a 48" long line of conscripts. Each was spaced 1.5" apart, in 2 ranks. 5" behind the second rank of Conscripts were the tanks, so that the enemy can't consolidate into them. The enemy shoots the conscripts, and I kill off the second rank in a region where they don't matter. Then the enemy charges the conscripts, and moves up to them, and fights. I again kill of conscripts from far away, so the enemy doesn't get to consolidate in a direction other than "towards the conscripts." Then, I retreat the surviving two-dozen conscripts, and shoot him.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, oh yes, oops, it's 60-points a squad. I went back and corrected it.

Vanguard aren't tough units. Vanguard are offensive units. Not all units are tough, not all units are killy. If your vanguard could sustain as much fire as Concripts, and remain effective, they'd be broken as all hell.

Conscripts offensive output is terrible. Maximizing their offensive output eliminates their defensive value, for one. That's another thing nobody accounts for, the fact that the 50 guys are spread out in a 48" long line, 1.5" apart.

Tacticals shouldn't even come close to conscripts. Dedicated firepower should remove way more points of any space marine unit that it does of Conscripts, because, with the exception of Cenobyte Servitors, just about every Space Marine unit is 8 times more destructive than a conscript.

A tactical marine hits on a 3+ with a strength 4 weapon, vs 5+ with a strength 3. That's a bit over two, not 8. Back when bolters ignored 5+ armor the gap might've been different but now... tactical marines are barely more destructive. 2 conscripts in rapid fire range and two outside it beat a tactical marine. Conscripts are so cheap that, even spread out and not optimized offensively, you still get more value. Plus you know... commanders.

Plus you still didn't address gaunts. Or horrors who actually have terrible offensive potential and morale issues to compensate for their price. Or cultists who are more expensive gaunts with better guns.

Conscripts are the only unit that takes that much firepower to kill for its cost. It is totally and fully unique in its pricing, and conscripts still are perfectly fine offensively.

Because if you are spacing them out like that it leaves a big enough gap for the enemy to multicharge through them. There is no reason to have your conscripts more than a inch away from each other.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, oh yes, oops, it's 60-points a squad. I went back and corrected it.

Vanguard aren't tough units. Vanguard are offensive units. Not all units are tough, not all units are killy. If your vanguard could sustain as much fire as Concripts, and remain effective, they'd be broken as all hell.

Conscripts offensive output is terrible. Maximizing their offensive output eliminates their defensive value, for one. That's another thing nobody accounts for, the fact that the 50 guys are spread out in a 48" long line, 1.5" apart.

Tacticals shouldn't even come close to conscripts. Dedicated firepower should remove way more points of any space marine unit that it does of Conscripts, because, with the exception of Cenobyte Servitors, just about every Space Marine unit is 8 times more destructive than a conscript.

A tactical marine hits on a 3+ with a strength 4 weapon, vs 5+ with a strength 3. That's a bit over two, not 8. Back when bolters ignored 5+ armor the gap might've been different but now... tactical marines are barely more destructive. Still didn't address gaunts. Or horrors who actually have terrible offensive potential and morale issues to compensate for their price. Or cultists who are more expensive gaunts with better guns.

Conscripts are the only unit that takes that much firepower to kill for its cost. It is totally and fully unique in its pricing, and conscripts still are perfectly fine offensively.

Tactical Marines have a 2/3 chance to hit, a 2/3 chance to wound, and a 2/3 chance to kill. In reverse, a Conscript has a 1/3 chance to hit, a 1/3 chance to wound, and a 1/3 chance to kill. That is, in fact, 2^3=8 times the effect on each other. Against a Space Marine, the Tac guy has a 4/6 to hit, a 3/6 to wound, and a 2/6 to kill, while a Conscript has a 2/6 to hit, a 2/6 to wound, and a 2/6 to kill, which is precisely three times more effective.

Against a Tactical Marine's shooting, it takes an average of 3 shots to kill the Conscript, and 9 shots to kill the Tac Guy. In this respect the Marine is also 3 times as good as the Conscript.

If a Marine was T3, Sv.5+, with a Boltgun at BS3+, he should be 9 points. Likewise, if he was T4 Sv3+ with a Lasgun at BS5+, he should be 9 points. But he's both, so he's 13, which is quite fair, all things considered.

Quickjager wrote:Because if you are spacing them out like that it leaves a big enough gap for the enemy to multicharge through them. There is no reason to have your conscripts more than a inch away from each other.

I see. There is 8.5" between the frontmost Conscript and the tanks. Assuming the enemy was as close as possible, it would require a 10" charge to make the tanks. There are very few units that can even get to the position to make the tanks, but a lot of units that can get to position to make a 9" charge against the Conscripts.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Tactical Marines have a 2/3 chance to hit, a 2/3 chance to wound, and a 2/3 chance to kill. In reverse, a Conscript has a 1/3 chance to hit, a 1/3 chance to wound, and a 1/3 chance to kill. That is, in fact, 2^3=8 times the effect on each other. Against a Space Marine, the Tac guy has a 4/6 to hit, a 3/6 to wound, and a 2/6 to kill, while a Conscript has a 2/6 to hit, a 2/6 to wound, and a 2/6 to kill, which is precisely three times more effective.

Wow, that's an insane justification for 8 times more effective. You compare them shooting the same target. Which is three times better at best, with conscripts costing less than a fourth of the price. Against a toughness 3 troop, it'll be less than three times. That's not bad offensive power... certainly not as terrible as you keep making them out to be.

You also haven't address how not a single other infantry unit is anywhere near as tough for their cost. Not gaunts, cultists, nothing I can think of.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Tactical Marines have a 2/3 chance to hit, a 2/3 chance to wound, and a 2/3 chance to kill. In reverse, a Conscript has a 1/3 chance to hit, a 1/3 chance to wound, and a 1/3 chance to kill. That is, in fact, 2^3=8 times the effect on each other. Against a Space Marine, the Tac guy has a 4/6 to hit, a 3/6 to wound, and a 2/6 to kill, while a Conscript has a 2/6 to hit, a 2/6 to wound, and a 2/6 to kill, which is precisely three times more effective.

Wow, that's an insane justification for 8 times more effective. You compare them shooting the same target. Which is three times better at best, with conscripts costing less than a fourth of the price. Against a toughness 3 troop, it'll be less than three times. That's not bad offensive power... certainly not as terrible as you keep making them out to be.

You also haven't address how not a single other infantry unit is anywhere near as tough for their cost. Not gaunts, cultists, nothing I can think of.

I just justified their toughness against the same weapon and their firepower against the same target, in the post above.

'Gaunts are weaker than Conscripts, and marginally killier but only by a small margin [1/2 as tough but 1.5 times as shooty], so I think Termigaunts are overpriced. Cultists are basically equivalent to Guardsmen, but also cost more to prevent Chaos Space Marines from infringing on the Guard's territory. That's why Scions are really, really bad for everything right now, because they're literally better at doing Marine-things than Marines, do you get me? Ork boys are fairly priced, because they're also 4.5 times more killy than a Conscript against SM targets, but only in melee while the Conscript can engage at range. Brimstones are fair, because they can Smite weakly, and if you bring a bunch in squads to ten they're basically morale proof [or, you know, have a big demon that makes everyone morale proof that you have a fair chance of wanting to bring anyway], and you got yourself a metric crap-ton of CP in the process. Grots are overpriced, without a doubt.


But, anyway, compared to most troop choices out there, Conscripts are quite fairly priced. There are a couple overpriced ones, like Termigaunts and Grots, which are really both 1 point high in my opinion, and Cultists, who are very pricey in order to make them a weak unit to bring.

Now, if you'll give me a few hours, I have a game to win.

150pts of conscripts is 50 models. same points is 11.5 marines; we'll say 12

12 marines kill 7.1 conscripts on average while in rapid fire range in a turn(about 21 points).

50 conscripts kill 3.7 marines on average while in rapid fire range (about 48 points). even assuming only 15 are in rapid fire range (65 shots), then 2.4 marines are killed on average(about 31 points).

saying that marine firepower is 8 times as effective is an improper use of not setting the target as a control group. their offensive output is not as bad as you claim.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Orks vs Guard:Guard win

I Exalted your post because you're the only one on topic this page.


Blood Angels vs Craftworld Eldar - Blood Angels Win

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
'Gaunts are weaker than Conscripts, and marginally killier but only by a small margin [1/2 as tough but 1.5 times as shooty], so I think Termigaunts are overpriced. Cultists are basically equivalent to Guardsmen, but also cost more to prevent Chaos Space Marines from infringing on the Guard's territory. That's why Scions are really, really bad for everything right now, because they're literally better at doing Marine-things than Marines, do you get me? Ork boys are fairly priced, because they're also 4.5 times more killy than a Conscript against SM targets, but only in melee while the Conscript can engage at range. Brimstones are fair, because they can Smite weakly, and if you bring a bunch in squads to ten they're basically morale proof [or, you know, have a big demon that makes everyone morale proof that you have a fair chance of wanting to bring anyway], and you got yourself a metric crap-ton of CP in the process. Grots are overpriced, without a doubt.

But, anyway, compared to most troop choices out there, Conscripts are quite fairly priced.

You think a 12" assault 1 str 4 weapon is 1.5 times as killy as a str 3 24" RF 1 weapon? No. Not at any range. IF the conscripts were armed with laspistols yes, but they have lasguns. Cultists are like guardsman with commissars, with a 6+ save, costing a point more, and SM and guard units can be in the same army (so I guess I should be mention renegades and heretics which are still flat out worse than guard for the same cost). We don't have a morale proof demon, we have one that shares it's leadership but a squad of 10 brimstones can still take 2-3 morale causalities regardless, and 33% chance of managing smite vs a lasgun on every body isn't even close to the same.

Name a single unit that is priced fairly compared to conscripts. A single other infantry unit that isn't guard. Maybe SoB? That's the only army that I see that can field anything like guard level infantry, and I'd still consider it debatable. After that, nothing even comes close.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I Exalted your post because you're the only one on topic this page.

Discussing why the win/loss rate is what it is is a fairly reasonable usage of the thread. The fact this tends to become more specific as problem areas are identified is also natural.

SilverAlien wrote:

Discussing why the win/loss rate is what it is is a fairly reasonable usage of the thread. The fact this tends to become more specific as problem areas are identified is also natural.

You must have forgotten you already revealed your actual motivation.

SilverAlien wrote:

If people stop trying to defend their broken OP armies in this thread I will. If they keep going on and on about how everything is fine and people don't know what they are talking about, I will take the time to point out how utterly wrong they are.

You're just trying to win an argument on the internet.

And another thread gets derailed by incessant, self-contradictory whines about conscripts.

On topic, friend of mine's been talking about his ultramarines on steam, looks like they got a victory against chaos marines today.

PLEASE STOP CLOGGING UP THIS THREAD WITH ARGUMENTS ABOUT CONSCRIPTS. IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE ABOUT THAT MAKE A NEW THREAD AND STOP DERAILING THIS ONE. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TRACKING ARMY WINS AND LOSSES WITHOUT A THREADLOCK, THANK YOU.

Tournament this weekend using Deathwatch.

Loss against Four Chaos Knights.
Loss against Eldar bike spam + FW Scorpion
Win against Thousand Sons + Magnus

-edit-

Forgot a practice game I played early. Loss against Adeptus Soritas with a splash of some other Imperium units.

Thousand Sons vs. Dark Angels - DA Win

I have no idea how you can be expected to beat Azrael. Even with 3 heldrakes charging into his lines and trying to break up the bubble he just beats you in CC. The only reason this game was even remotely competitive was that two of the heldrakes exploded.

Necron vs IG tournament practice, cron's won officially on time, would have been tabled had game finished later

Tooled around with playtesting rules for a bit, so didn't count any of those intro games.

First proper game:
Death Guard vs Space Marines - Space Marine Victory

Tyranids Vs Tau : Tyranids Win
Tyranids Vs Tau : Tau Win

Not sure if it counts, but we did a big mish mash 3v3 to start 8th off with a bang.

Necrons + Dark Eldar + Orks -VS- Space Marines + Sisters of Battle + Ad Mech --- Marines, Sisters and AdMech Victory

I should be having a proper 1v1 this weekend, so will post the results then.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I just justified their toughness against the same weapon and their firepower against the same target, in the post above.

'Gaunts are weaker than Conscripts, and marginally killier but only by a small margin [1/2 as tough but 1.5 times as shooty], so I think Termigaunts are overpriced. Cultists are basically equivalent to Guardsmen, but also cost more to prevent Chaos Space Marines from infringing on the Guard's territory. That's why Scions are really, really bad for everything right now, because they're literally better at doing Marine-things than Marines, do you get me? Ork boys are fairly priced, because they're also 4.5 times more killy than a Conscript against SM targets, but only in melee while the Conscript can engage at range. Brimstones are fair, because they can Smite weakly, and if you bring a bunch in squads to ten they're basically morale proof [or, you know, have a big demon that makes everyone morale proof that you have a fair chance of wanting to bring anyway], and you got yourself a metric crap-ton of CP in the process. Grots are overpriced, without a doubt.


But, anyway, compared to most troop choices out there, Conscripts are quite fairly priced. There are a couple overpriced ones, like Termigaunts and Grots, which are really both 1 point high in my opinion, and Cultists, who are very pricey in order to make them a weak unit to bring.

Now, if you'll give me a few hours, I have a game to win.

Grots are only overpriced until you consider that they're one of the only ways Orks can get BS4+ shooting. Since Orks are not a shooting army, they pay a premium for anything that isn't BS5+ or worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 heckler wrote:
150pts of conscripts is 50 models. same points is 11.5 marines; we'll say 12

12 marines kill 7.1 conscripts on average while in rapid fire range in a turn(about 21 points).

50 conscripts kill 3.7 marines on average while in rapid fire range (about 48 points). even assuming only 15 are in rapid fire range (65 shots), then 2.4 marines are killed on average(about 31 points).

saying that marine firepower is 8 times as effective is an improper use of not setting the target as a control group. their offensive output is not as bad as you claim.

Except, you're only double-tapping with all 50 conscripts if your opponent is a potato. Try and be at least a little realistic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:


You think a 12" assault 1 str 4 weapon is 1.5 times as killy as a str 3 24" RF 1 weapon? No. Not at any range.

Gaunts have BS4+. Conscripts have BS5+.

Gaunts are designed to advance, shoot, and assault.

Conscripts are designed to be assaulted.

Yes. The gaunts are killier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
PLEASE STOP CLOGGING UP THIS THREAD WITH ARGUMENTS ABOUT CONSCRIPTS. IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE ABOUT THAT MAKE A NEW THREAD AND STOP DERAILING THIS ONE. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TRACKING ARMY WINS AND LOSSES WITHOUT A THREADLOCK, THANK YOU.

I started a conscript thread. Can we move that conversation over there and try to behave enough that it doesn't get locked like the last one did?

Updated.

As mentioned above, please don't de-rail the thread.

Games i've witnessed:
IG scion comsquad spam vs Ork mishmash - IG wins
IG scion comsquad spam vs Deathwatch with razors - IG wins

It'd be interesting to see how necrons fare vs scions. So far this scion comsquad + basilisk spam pyayer has only lost once - to an ork horde.

We are seeing a narrowing of the gap further for Tau and also much more homogeneity in the middle. It looks like this edition might actually be pretty balanced. I would also point out based on the C.I. that the army with the lowest possible real performance is Death Guard at 13%.

I don't know about balanced. 1-st tied (index-wise) is pretty far ahead of anything else. The rest looks to be even though. Looks like nothing that can't be fixed with a point revamp.

Just going to post some results from some of the local club members:

Win
Lose
Draw

Tau vs Death Guard
Tau vs Grey Knights

Tau vs Tyranids
Tau vs Orks
Tau vs Necrons
Tau vs Space Marines
Tau vs Chaos

Guard vs Space Wolves



EDIT: Also I should say - by Chaos I mean Chaos, not Daemons or CSMs. It was a mixed Daemon/CSM list.

Only 1 game so far. 1k Sons vs Grey Knights. Was pretty much a wash in favor of Tzeentch.

Also, can we get a chart with the win % over the entire post on the front page?

 nintura wrote:
Only 1 game so far. 1k Sons vs Grey Knights. Was pretty much a wash in favor of Tzeentch.

Also, can we get a chart with the win % over the entire post on the front page?

Win percentage over the entire post? 50%. Because wins = losses.

Do you mean something like a pie chart that displays the proportion of wins each army has?

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Just going to post some results from some of the local club members:

Win
Lose
Draw

Tau vs Death Guard
Tau vs Grey Knights

Tau vs Tyranids
Tau vs Orks
Tau vs Necrons
Tau vs Space Marines
Tau vs Chaos

Guard vs Space Wolves

Well done, my blueberry friend!

Selym wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Only 1 game so far. 1k Sons vs Grey Knights. Was pretty much a wash in favor of Tzeentch.

Also, can we get a chart with the win % over the entire post on the front page?

Win percentage over the entire post? 50%. Because wins = losses.

Do you mean something like a pie chart that displays the proportion of wins each army has?

He wants those colorful charts posted on the first post of this thread, so people won't need to hunt for them among the last pages