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Made in us
Da Red Gobo





USA

 SarisKhan wrote:
few reasons:
- Our vehicles no longer evaporate the moment someone looks at them funny.
This alone makes Dark Eldar much more effective.

That was the biggest complaint of DE players in previous editions.

Good faith is a prerequisite for civility. In its absence, "Go Feth Yourself" is not only an acceptable response, it is the only appropriate response and, really, the only possible response. Social media isn’t characterized by rampant incivility because people have bad manners. It looks like that because epidemic bad faith makes nicer manners impossible. So stop arguing in bad faith, or don't be surprised when people tell you to go feth yourself.
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Marmatag wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not convinced that people are reporting their wins and losses fairly. Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second? Or are you just playing well below your army level?

Anyway,

BA vs GK - BA victory (1000 points)
BA vs GK - GK victory (1500 points)

Both games were a decisive tabling.

One tremendous oversight in the BA codex is the leadership of death company. They don't get a sergeant, so their leadership is 7. The elite Blood Angels Death Company has the exact same leadership as your average guardsman. WUT? This came up because I always take Purge Soul on Draigo, who has a base leadership of 10. 10+D6 vs 7+D6. He rolled a 2, I rolled a 5, obliterating an entire squad of DC with 1 spell, dealing 6 mortal wounds.


Guardsmen are Ld6.
Sergeant brings them to 7 tho right?

And even then. These are the elite most BA. You pay like 180+ for 5 of them. And they DO suffer morale losses... they're just power armored marines with a 6+FNP... they should be LD 8 with a sergeant.


I thought Death Company were feral BA, like Wulfen.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not convinced that people are reporting their wins and losses fairly. Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second? Or are you just playing well below your army level?


I haven't lost a game because my opponents are either bad or are still working out what's good for them, while I worked out what was good using computer simulations before the edition released. I've been clubbing baby seals on the head, as it were. In addition, quite a few were 500 point games played at the local store, which is configured with 4x4 boards right now.

As I remember, I've played since the edition dropped:
Imperial Guard vs. Space Marines
Imperial Guard vs. Orks
Sisters of Battle vs. Chaos Space Marines
Imperial Guard vs. Harlequins
Imperial Guard vs. Necrons
Imperial Guard vs. Renegade Guard
Sisters of Battle vs. Necrons
Sisters of Battle vs. Tyranids
Imperial Guard vs. Tyranids
Sisters of Battle vs. Deathwatch
Sisters of Battle vs. Grey Knights
Imperial Guard vs. Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle vs. Tau

Marmatag wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I find i lose at least a quarter of my army going second.

In the 1500 point game I won, i did go second. I lost my raven, and some models inside due to the crash. That comes out to be over 20% of my list easily, and my only true anti-tank, other than the NDK. Additionally, my purifiers were stranded in the back.

The problem was my opponent had invested quite a bit into his storm raven, and even without anti-tank, my purifiers were able to advance into smite range to his raven, and deal 2D6 mortal wounds. Rolls slightly on the luck side, and I did 9 mortal wounds with the 2 purifiers. The NDK hopped over a wall, smited it, and draigo smited it as well. So it was left with 3 wounds remaining at the end of psychic, and I was able to shoot it down with the NDK, thanks to Draigo rerolls.

Inside the raven was a kitted dreadnought and some death company, which got obliterated as they were now in charge range. Additionally, my deep-strike paladins /w falchions and hammerhand got into combat with his warlord, getting a 12 on the charge roll (LOL) and did something like 5d3 wounds, we didn't even roll, just removed Dante.

So, by overexposing and going hard to kill my raven, he made his entire army vulnerable, and I rolled well. FWIW the map was "the scouring."

But all in all, I can't remember where I heard it, but in ITC games, the person who goes first wins 80% of the time.

That's a big part of why I've won all the games I've gon second in: my opponant deep strikes, teleports, psychics, etc. their big hitters into my face then all of their firepower goes into taking down whatever big meany I've brought with me (Renegade Knight, Lord of Skulls, Magnus, Bloodthirster). Then after he's killed or crippled my big monster, half of my Berzerkers pile out and slaughter whatever he sent to take it down and my Terminators drop from the sky and cripple my opponant's big meany. I played a game against an Ork player where he got off a first turn charge on two 30 man boy squads that destroyed my Heldrake and crippled my Bloodthirster, half my Berzerkers then slaughtered one Boy unit and a Daemon Prince + the Bloofthirster slaughtered the other. Having something big and nasty looking seems to be the key of winning games this edition.


I agree.

I think this is why Imperial Guard are so strong though in this edition. Most armies have to pay some price to alpha strike, in the form of exposing themselves or splitting their forces thanks to the 50% requirement. Meanwhile, you can have your 10 manticores sit back, completely safe, and hit literally anything on the table with 0 risk whatsoever. 10D6 dice with rerolls to hit, at strength 10, -2 d3? Things will die, and you don't even need to move an inch.


How do I get my Manticores to re-roll to-hit?

Manticores are 133 points per model. The rocket is 2d6 shots at BS4+.


You're also drastically over exaggerating IG, and underestimating other force's, alpha-strike potential. Sisters of Battle make a far more powerful alpha-strike than Imperial Guard, and can reach almost anything almost anywhere with a turn-1 charge with any unit that desires to, and with twice the firepower of an equivalently costed Space Marine that wouldn't be able to make rapid-fire on turn 1.


IG have always been good at front loading damage, but they're not that exceptional at it. The thing is not that the IG are particularly beyond other armies at alpha-striking, it's that we're fairly protected if we have to go second.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 19:12:52


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Newark, CA

 mrhappyface wrote:
Having something big and nasty looking seems to be the key of winning games this edition.


That's been true forever.

One of my friends used to field Slanesh CSM. The centerpiece of his army was this landraider he painted with a can of bright pink paint he got at walmart for $2 ($1.50 on sale).

When that thing was on the board, it was all you could see. I played games against him where I found myself maneuvering around the damn thing even after I had killed it because it was such an attention-grabber.

I remember one game where I shot at it with half my army before I realized I had been focusing a damn landraider instead of killing the deathstar he had spent 2 turns walking across the board into charge range.

Distraction is a valid strategy.

Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





East Bay, Ca, US

Manticores can receive orders.

But it's not just manticores, they're an example, there are quite a few nasty tanks. And good luck getting to them, and not hung-up or walled by conscripts.

As an army they have far and away the most synergy across their units. There's a reason they are represented so well with over 170 games played in this poll...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 19:12:47


My knights are weirdly grey.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone





Doesn't IG's alpha strike come from being able to deep strike in a ton of plasma guns on Scions who are cheap as all hell, can take 2 special weapons per 5 guys, and have orders that let them reroll ones so that overcharging the plasma doesn't pose a huge threat?

IG absolutely have great alpha strike potential, simply from the amount of cheap DSing squads with special weapons they have access to.

Mobile Assault Cadre: 7,600 points (2,650 points fully painted)
8th Edition record (W/L/D): 3/1/0

777 points/ 11.5 SWC 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





 Marmatag wrote:
Manticores can receive orders


No, they can't. Orders only work on Infantry units. Leman Russes have their own set, but it only works on Leman Russes.

Artillery can re-roll 1's if accompanied by a Master of the Ordnance and firing at a target over 36" away, or if accompanied by Harker or Yarrick.

Anyway, storytime. Playing GK with my IG, I got first go on him, and on turn 1, I killed a grand total of 7 models with every gun I had that could draw line of effect, or could fire indirect. He brought all his guys on during his turn, deep-striking terminators in front of my gunline. He charged the gunline, I absorbed it, lost about 30 guys, then fell back, shortening my perimeter by retreating between two houses I had heavy guns in. Then I shot him, and killed another 7 or 8 guys. He had to charge the perimeter again, because my tanks were still behind the line of guys, and killed another dozen men. I fell back, and shot him again, killing another 7 or 8 guys. I had three men left, but because of the terrain they were still blocking the path to the tanks. He charged them and killed them, but he was starting to run out of attack force, and I killed off the last of his guys with the next shooting phase.


It's not the opening salvo, it's the fact that our heavy guns can remain in play for more than 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 GI_Redshirt wrote:
Doesn't IG's alpha strike come from being able to deep strike in a ton of plasma guns on Scions who are cheap as all hell, can take 2 special weapons per 5 guys, and have orders that let them reroll ones so that overcharging the plasma doesn't pose a huge threat?

IG absolutely have great alpha strike potential, simply from the amount of cheap DSing squads with special weapons they have access to.


Yes. Elysian Drop Troops with Special Weapons, and Stormtroopers as Troop Choices [why?].


I consider complaints about Scions to be legitimate complaints, because that's us stepping on someone else's toes and doing it better.

I consider complaints about Conscripts to be Space Marine players upset that they can't walk all over us. Without a fairly cheap and difficult to remove perimeter line, you can melee our tanks and guns on turn 1 and that's basically us not being able to play or be a viable army the way IG is supposed to be. It's not that hard to kill the Conscripts in 2 to 3 turns. My Dominions can do it faster, as can my Seraphim. In addition, the more the IG player invested in Conscripts, the less we invested in things that can actually kill you, like Manticores, Leman Russes, and Baneblades.

I see a lot of complaining about individual units in our army. However, most of what I see tends to be trying to kill off 133 points of Manticore supported by 210 points of Conscipts and another 133 point Manticore with 133 points of Space Marines, and concluding that the Manticore is overpowered. However, if you compare 2 133 points Manticores and 210 points of Conscripts+Support with 500 points of the enemy, it's much less lopsided.


Anyway, I'm going to play a few more games tomorrow evening at 75PL as part of the local league. We'll see if I can keep up the winning streak.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 19:42:54


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Brazil

Drager wrote:
Cool. I didn't spot that. AM is a confusing abbreviation.


Generally, you can assume AM to be Astra Militarum. Adeptus Mechanicus abbreviation usually is AdMech

Future 30k Thousand Sons player
Gue'vesa of the Greater Good. Join us if you want to live!  
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Newark, CA

Oh, before I forget, we got some games in this weekend.

SM vs. Necrons: SM win
SM vs. Necrons: Necron win
SM vs. Necrons: SM win

They were only 500-750 points.

Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Updating my gaming groups results from this last weekend;

Orkz vs Grey Knights - Orkz
Orkz vs Space Marines - Orkz
Imperial knights vs AM - AM
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

 Vector Strike wrote:
Drager wrote:
Cool. I didn't spot that. AM is a confusing abbreviation.


Generally, you can assume AM to be Astra Militarum. Adeptus Mechanicus abbreviation usually is AdMech
Or we could clear the confusion and just use IG.

Like it should be...

Some people don't know how to use "There", "Their" and "They're" properly. Here's a helpful video. TLDR; "There" is for direction (The hat is there). "Their" is for possession (It is their ball). "They're" is short for "They are" (They're going to get lunch). I am seeing so many of these errors it is giving me the blood pressure of a 250lb 50 year old with two sick kids. /Public Announcement. 
   
Made in us
Barpharanges






Probably work

 Selym wrote:
Or we could clear the confusion and just use IG.

Like it should be...


I vote for this. And while we're at it, they're called stormtroopers. The word is stormtroopers.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





East Yorkshire

 Selym wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
Drager wrote:
Cool. I didn't spot that. AM is a confusing abbreviation.


Generally, you can assume AM to be Astra Militarum. Adeptus Mechanicus abbreviation usually is AdMech
Or we could clear the confusion and just use IG.

Like it should be...

*GASP* But Imperial Guard can't be copywrited!

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
World Eaters - 8W 1D 1L 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

 mrhappyface wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
Drager wrote:
Cool. I didn't spot that. AM is a confusing abbreviation.


Generally, you can assume AM to be Astra Militarum. Adeptus Mechanicus abbreviation usually is AdMech
Or we could clear the confusion and just use IG.

Like it should be...

*GASP* But Imperial Guard can't be copywrited!
The Ork is GW's lawyers:


Some people don't know how to use "There", "Their" and "They're" properly. Here's a helpful video. TLDR; "There" is for direction (The hat is there). "Their" is for possession (It is their ball). "They're" is short for "They are" (They're going to get lunch). I am seeing so many of these errors it is giving me the blood pressure of a 250lb 50 year old with two sick kids. /Public Announcement. 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





East Bay, Ca, US

I'm sorry, i confused an order with the master of ordnance. It is an inexpensive way to get mega rerolls on those.

My knights are weirdly grey.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n
 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





 Marmatag wrote:
I'm sorry, i confused an order with the master of ordnance. It is an inexpensive way to get mega rerolls on those.


It doesn't even work though. It's re-roll 1's to hit, but only if the target is over 36" away from the artillery tank.


Considering it's 36" from my board edge to the edge of your deployment zone, and the spg itself is a solid 5" long, there's a band of your deployment zone where I can't use the re-roll 1's effect, and if you move into the no-man's land, then the MoO isn't doing anything.


Our artillery is weaker than it's even been, and our alpha strike potential has gone down drastically relative to previous editions. We have to actually roll to hit on our crappy BS4+ now, and we don't even get as many shots as we could routinely get hits out of our artillery and tanks.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 23:19:29


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





A Dark Place

See if I can remember mine so far, in no particular order (I play vanilla marines);

Marines vs Daemons - Loss
Marines vs Daemons - Loss
Marines vs Daemons - Loss
Marines vs Space Wolves + Ad Mech - Loss
Marines vs Eldar - Loss
Marines vs Eldar - Loss
Marines vs Eldar - Win
Marines vs Eldar - Win
Marines vs Eldar - Loss
Marines vs Eldar - Loss
Marines vs Space Wolves - Win
Marines+Necrons vs Orks - Win
Marines vs Chaos Marines - Win
Marines vs Chaos Marines - Loss
Marines vs Guard - Win

A lot of very close games, often with only a point or two difference by the end. Eldar keep tabling me though, I hate those goddamn wave serpents and hemlocks with a passion.

darefsky wrote:Heck I have had times where I have sat down to paint, gotten everything ready, looked at it and went "nope I'm done."
 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





East Bay, Ca, US

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm sorry, i confused an order with the master of ordnance. It is an inexpensive way to get mega rerolls on those.


It doesn't even work though. It's re-roll 1's to hit, but only if the target is over 36" away from the artillery tank.


Considering it's 36" from my board edge to the edge of your deployment zone, and the spg itself is a solid 5" long, there's a band of your deployment zone where I can't use the re-roll 1's effect, and if you move into the no-man's land, then the MoO isn't doing anything.


Our artillery is weaker than it's even been, and our alpha strike potential has gone down drastically relative to previous editions. We have to actually roll to hit on our crappy BS4+ now, and we don't even get as many shots as we could routinely get hits out of our artillery and tanks.


It does work, i don't even know how you can claim that, it's fairly easy to get 36" away, it just varies with deployment zones. You're assuming all games have the exact same deployment zones.

Your artillery is actually much stronger than its ever been. Guard tanks were an absolute joke in previous editions. Your Leman Russ tanks even enjoy the same toughness and save as an Imperial Knight, excluding shooting invuln. And, you have the added bonus of conscript defense.

I don't even need to argue this though, it's very clearly reflected in the win/loss.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 22:23:11


My knights are weirdly grey.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I consider complaints about Conscripts to be Space Marine players upset that they can't walk all over us. Without a fairly cheap and difficult to remove perimeter line, you can melee our tanks and guns on turn 1 and that's basically us not being able to play or be a viable army the way IG is supposed to be. It's not that hard to kill the Conscripts in 2 to 3 turns.

I see a lot of complaining about individual units in our army. However, most of what I see tends to be trying to kill off 133 points of Manticore supported by 210 points of Conscipts and another 133 point Manticore with 133 points of Space Marines, and concluding that the Manticore is overpowered. However, if you compare 2 133 points Manticores and 210 points of Conscripts+Support with 500 points of the enemy, it's much less lopsided.


So you are still doing the "conscripts are balanced" thing? Stop it. The counter play is literally just snipers. There is no way to efficiently kill them with the commissar still up, you will always sink an absurd number of points into killing them. I can bring out the premier infantry killers in my army, vanguard and Kastelans for admech, and they will not clear conscripts efficiently. 250 points of vanguard might barely be able to kill 150 points of conscripts with a commissar backing them before they themselves are killed, if everything goes in the vanguard's favor, 250+ points of kastellans still take 4 turns to clear them all out. Both of which don't have this same issue crop up when I face nids or orks weirdly enough.

I literally ran 6 units of rangers with sniper rifles just to deal with IG, because there is literally no counter play to this that isn't sniper rifles. It's such an awful mess of poor design and cheese. IG deserves to get nerfed into the ground, I've never seen people so convinced their absurdly broken army is balanced. Even eldar and tau WAAC players last edition didn't try to insist they were balanced, least not that I saw.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Newark, CA

SilverAlien wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I consider complaints about Conscripts to be Space Marine players upset that they can't walk all over us. Without a fairly cheap and difficult to remove perimeter line, you can melee our tanks and guns on turn 1 and that's basically us not being able to play or be a viable army the way IG is supposed to be. It's not that hard to kill the Conscripts in 2 to 3 turns.

I see a lot of complaining about individual units in our army. However, most of what I see tends to be trying to kill off 133 points of Manticore supported by 210 points of Conscipts and another 133 point Manticore with 133 points of Space Marines, and concluding that the Manticore is overpowered. However, if you compare 2 133 points Manticores and 210 points of Conscripts+Support with 500 points of the enemy, it's much less lopsided.


So you are still doing the "conscripts are balanced" thing? Stop it. The counter play is literally just snipers. There is no way to efficiently kill them with the commissar still up, you will always sink an absurd number of points into killing them. I can bring out the premier infantry killers in my army, vanguard and Kastelans for admech, and they will not clear conscripts efficiently. 250 points of vanguard might barely be able to kill 150 points of conscripts with a commissar backing them before they themselves are killed, if everything goes in the vanguard's favor, 250+ points of kastellans still take 4 turns to clear them all out. Both of which don't have this same issue crop up when I face nids or orks weirdly enough.

I literally ran 6 units of rangers with sniper rifles just to deal with IG, because there is literally no counter play to this that isn't sniper rifles. It's such an awful mess of poor design and cheese. IG deserves to get nerfed into the ground, I've never seen people so convinced their absurdly broken army is balanced. Even eldar and tau WAAC players last edition didn't try to insist they were balanced, least not that I saw.


Just stop. This thread isn't about conscripts. Leave them for the conscript threads that keep getting locked.

Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Actually on that note, might as well post the results of a small little three round bracket tournament thing my local group did.

Admech vs Necrons: Admech victory
SoB vs SM: SoB victory
Admech vs SoB: SoB victory

IG vs CSM: IG victory
Ultramarines vs Tyranids: Ultramarines victory
IG vs Ultramarines: Ultramarine victory

Admech vs IG: Admech victory (bronze medal, woooo)
SoB vs Ultramarines: Ultramarines victory

Also worth noting for anyone about to point this out, 4 out of the 8 armies were basically built to counter the IG list.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Just stop. This thread isn't about conscripts. Leave them for the conscript threads that keep getting locked.


If people stop trying to defend their broken OP armies in this thread I will. If they keep going on and on about how everything is fine and people don't know what they are talking about, I will take the time to point out how utterly wrong they are.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 23:10:09


 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Marmatag wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I'm sorry, i confused an order with the master of ordnance. It is an inexpensive way to get mega rerolls on those.


It doesn't even work though. It's re-roll 1's to hit, but only if the target is over 36" away from the artillery tank.


Considering it's 36" from my board edge to the edge of your deployment zone, and the spg itself is a solid 5" long, there's a band of your deployment zone where I can't use the re-roll 1's effect, and if you move into the no-man's land, then the MoO isn't doing anything.


Our artillery is weaker than it's even been, and our alpha strike potential has gone down drastically relative to previous editions. We have to actually roll to hit on our crappy BS4+ now, and we don't even get as many shots as we could routinely get hits out of our artillery and tanks.


It does work, i don't even know how you can claim that, it's fairly easy to get 36" away, it just varies with deployment zones. You're assuming all games have the exact same deployment zones.

Your artillery is actually much stronger than its ever been. Guard tanks were an absolute joke in previous editions. Your Leman Russ tanks even enjoy the same toughness and save as an Imperial Knight, excluding shooting invuln. And, you have the added bonus of conscript defense.

I don't even need to argue this though, it's very clearly reflected in the win/loss.


Leman Russes had better armor than an Imperial Knight, and could claim a 4+ save from a barricade, 3+ with a camo-net.

Basilisks rarely missed, thanks to blast templates. Against infantry they could routinely strike 3 or more models, assuming average dispersion, and against a tank a hit was nearly guaranteed. Same goes for Manticores and Leman Russes.


But yes, Leman Russes were a joke last edition. But, you know what? They're still an absolute joke. The Leman Russ Battle Cannon is so much trash now, as are almost all the other gun options. It needs Pask, or a Tank Commander to be effective.

SilverAlien wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I consider complaints about Conscripts to be Space Marine players upset that they can't walk all over us. Without a fairly cheap and difficult to remove perimeter line, you can melee our tanks and guns on turn 1 and that's basically us not being able to play or be a viable army the way IG is supposed to be. It's not that hard to kill the Conscripts in 2 to 3 turns.

I see a lot of complaining about individual units in our army. However, most of what I see tends to be trying to kill off 133 points of Manticore supported by 210 points of Conscipts and another 133 point Manticore with 133 points of Space Marines, and concluding that the Manticore is overpowered. However, if you compare 2 133 points Manticores and 210 points of Conscripts+Support with 500 points of the enemy, it's much less lopsided.


So you are still doing the "conscripts are balanced" thing? Stop it. The counter play is literally just snipers. There is no way to efficiently kill them with the commissar still up, you will always sink an absurd number of points into killing them. I can bring out the premier infantry killers in my army, vanguard and Kastelans for admech, and they will not clear conscripts efficiently. 250 points of vanguard might barely be able to kill 150 points of conscripts with a commissar backing them before they themselves are killed, if everything goes in the vanguard's favor, 250+ points of kastellans still take 4 turns to clear them all out. Both of which don't have this same issue crop up when I face nids or orks weirdly enough.

I literally ran 6 units of rangers with sniper rifles just to deal with IG, because there is literally no counter play to this that isn't sniper rifles. It's such an awful mess of poor design and cheese. IG deserves to get nerfed into the ground, I've never seen people so convinced their absurdly broken army is balanced. Even eldar and tau WAAC players last edition didn't try to insist they were balanced, least not that I saw.


Give up on the damn snipers. They're ineffective, and you're just going to go home crying. Try firing ~3 times their cost in dedicated anti-infantry shooting at them: 5 Dominions w/ SB = 60pts. 30 Dominions w/ Storm Bolters = 120 dice > 80 hits > 55 wounds > 38 killed. Of course, I'm not going to use 8 squads of SB Dominions, but more like 3 in Immolators, but a fairly similar effect is achieved.

But anyway, we've gone over this ad nauseum.



I'm not denying that we're good. Stormtroopers are obscenely overpowered. But I don't think conscripts are particularly OP.

Anyway, here's by 75PL list for league tommorrow:
KC Pask
CC
50 Conscripts
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Commissar
Basilisk
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Shadowsword


I don't like it, because I don't like the 11PL on a BT, but I don't have the PL to make him a TC. And the Basilisk is straight out inferior to the Manticore, which is only 1 point more, but unless I lose something else, I won't have the PL. Stupid PL, I like working with points so much more.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 00:58:04


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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Dakka Veteran




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Give up on the damn snipers. They're ineffective, and you're just going to go home crying. Try firing ~3 times their cost in dedicated anti-infantry shooting at them: 5 Dominions w/ SB = 50pts. 40 Dominions w/ Storm Bolters = 160 dice > 103 hits > 68 wounds > 43 killed.


Sure I'll use my 8 fast attack slots, all geared for the express purpose of killing conscripts, worth 3 times as many points as the unit, to almost kill it in a single turn if I can get them in rapid fire range. From the only other army that's even close to IG atm. That's a totally reasonable response. Thank you for illustrating how horrendously broken your army is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 00:02:54


 
   
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





A vacuum where wargaming is impossible :C

I wonder if some of the statistical changes we're seeing is just down to people thinking in an 8e way now instead of a 7e way - instead of the actual codex power levels being more accurately accounted for.

For example, in 7e, you wouldn't look at Blobguard and think to yourself "If only I had my Wraithguard on me".

Ynnari Detachment

Yvraine - 135
Wraithguard w/D-Scythes - 225

You can drop an average of 20 autohits, most of which will wound. Throw in smite if you can. And if you used a WS as transport, well...

Gonna be some dead bodies laying around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 23:44:28


Some people don't know how to use "There", "Their" and "They're" properly. Here's a helpful video. TLDR; "There" is for direction (The hat is there). "Their" is for possession (It is their ball). "They're" is short for "They are" (They're going to get lunch). I am seeing so many of these errors it is giving me the blood pressure of a 250lb 50 year old with two sick kids. /Public Announcement. 
   
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Repentia Mistress





SilverAlien wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Give up on the damn snipers. They're ineffective, and you're just going to go home crying. Try firing ~3 times their cost in dedicated anti-infantry shooting at them: 5 Dominions w/ SB = 50pts. 40 Dominions w/ Storm Bolters = 160 dice > 103 hits > 68 wounds > 43 killed.


Sure I'll use my 8 fast attack slots, all geared for the express purpose of killing conscripts, worth 3 times as many points as the unit, to almost kill it in a single turn. From the only other army that's even close to IG atm. That's a totally reasonable response. Thank you for illustrating how horrendously broken your army is.


Well, yeah. 3 times the cost of the conscripts is fair to remove them, because they have negligible offensive output and exist for the express purpose of providing a roadblock. This is what I'm talking about.

You're upset that you have to overcommit to them to clear them out in one turn. Because guess what, equivalent cost of firepower will get rid of them in about 3 to 4 turns. About double their cost will remove them in 2 turns, which is entirely fair, yes?



Also, I'm part of the reason Sisters are at the top. Literally a quarter of the games listed here are mine [22.2%], and I won all of them.

But let's try something else: Tau are distinctly at the bottom of the pile, and I have their index on me right now, 1 Suit Commander with 3 Burst Cannons and a Drone Controller, a big pile of 36 Gun Drones, and 4 Markerlights

4 Markers gets 2 hits, enough to safely ensure re-rolling 1's. Then, Suit Commander puts 12 shots that result in 4 kills. The big pile of gun drones puts out 144 dice, of which about 100 hit, of which 65 wound, of which 42 kill.


It takes about 3x the cost of conscripts in anti-infantry firepower to destroy them in one turn, assuming they are supported. It's about 2x the cost of them and their support, which strikes me as quite fair, really, after all, they're a unit designed to soak up more than their cost for a couple of turns.


Of course conscripts are vital to our victory, because they're a lot of bodies for cheap that ensures our big guns have the turns they need to make back their cost. As a rule, from my experience so far, every 50 conscripts buys about 2 turns of shooting, depending on the foe. They buy about 1 turn against the Tyranids and about 3 against the Grey Knights, but that's about where it stands, as I see it.

Again, I'm not deny my army is good. It's very good, because our units interact beautifully. It's called strategy. Each unit on its own is absolutely terrible, but when they work together they're superior to the sum of all parts.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 00:11:04


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Da Red Gobo





USA

How many threads have been closed due to this pathetic bitching about conscripts?

On an unrelated note, it looks like more and more SM victories are popping up.

Good faith is a prerequisite for civility. In its absence, "Go Feth Yourself" is not only an acceptable response, it is the only appropriate response and, really, the only possible response. Social media isn’t characterized by rampant incivility because people have bad manners. It looks like that because epidemic bad faith makes nicer manners impossible. So stop arguing in bad faith, or don't be surprised when people tell you to go feth yourself.
My blog
 
   
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





It's also fairly normal to need 2-3 turns to remove an equal value of any target, and therefore to need 2-3x the cost for a one-turn kill.

There are outliers such as the lascannon HWS, which by virtue of being all gun and no HP can remove much more than their own cost but are also easily wiped by units that cost less than them. But for most units, needing multiple turns to kill them with equal cost is pretty normal.

Which makes sense if you think about it. If you could always reasonably expect to make your points back in one turn, doesn't that mean that if all your units started in range of the enemy (not hard to do for some armies) you could reasonably expect to table them on the first turn, because their army is the same cost as yours? If a 2000 point army typically doesn't table another 2000 point army in a single turn, what makes you think a 150 point unit can consistently wipe another 150 point unit in a single turn?
   
Made in us
Da Red Gobo





USA

Now now you're just using logic, and we can't have any of that.

Good faith is a prerequisite for civility. In its absence, "Go Feth Yourself" is not only an acceptable response, it is the only appropriate response and, really, the only possible response. Social media isn’t characterized by rampant incivility because people have bad manners. It looks like that because epidemic bad faith makes nicer manners impossible. So stop arguing in bad faith, or don't be surprised when people tell you to go feth yourself.
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





 ross-128 wrote:
It's also fairly normal to need 2-3 turns to remove an equal value of any target, and therefore to need 2-3x the cost for a one-turn kill.

There are outliers such as the lascannon HWS, which by virtue of being all gun and no HP can remove much more than their own cost but are also easily wiped by units that cost less than them. But for most units, needing multiple turns to kill them with equal cost is pretty normal.

Which makes sense if you think about it. If you could always reasonably expect to make your points back in one turn, doesn't that mean that if all your units started in range of the enemy (not hard to do for some armies) you could reasonably expect to table them on the first turn, because their army is the same cost as yours? If a 2000 point army typically doesn't table another 2000 point army in a single turn, what makes you think a 150 point unit can consistently wipe another 150 point unit in a single turn?


This.

Anyway, done with conscripts, because I'm going to wander back to IG tactica and try to further optimize my list. I might try to get a few games in tonight to try out my Sisters and IG lists, decide which one I like better, find and fix weaknesses, and bring the best list to League tomorrow. I'm finding myself hating the lack of granularity in Power Levels, because I tend to optimize, to make sure all units are as cheap as possible while doing their job, but PL just makes making all these optimizations impossible and I feel like I'm overplaying for units.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Newark, CA

SilverAlien wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Give up on the damn snipers. They're ineffective, and you're just going to go home crying. Try firing ~3 times their cost in dedicated anti-infantry shooting at them: 5 Dominions w/ SB = 50pts. 40 Dominions w/ Storm Bolters = 160 dice > 103 hits > 68 wounds > 43 killed.


Sure I'll use my 8 fast attack slots, all geared for the express purpose of killing conscripts, worth 3 times as many points as the unit, to almost kill it in a single turn if I can get them in rapid fire range. From the only other army that's even close to IG atm. That's a totally reasonable response. Thank you for illustrating how horrendously broken your army is.


This isn't about conscripts. This is about an argument I see paraded around all the time that ticks me off.

"Killing Unit A requires more points of Unit B! This proves that Unit A is OP!"

Just because Unit B killed Unit A does NOT make Unit B magically disappear. It's still there, and can still go do something else constructive next turn.

"But, making me use Unit B in that way means they don't make their points back that turn!"

So? That's called tactics, son. And your opponent is not necessarily an idiot.

"But it shouldn't take me X00% of a units cost to kill that unit in one turn!"

This claim requires context. If Unit A is a glass cannon, then you are correct because being hit at all is something your opponent should be avoiding at all costs.

When Unit A is a freaking tarpit, then this complaint is missing the point and is completely invalid. Some units are designed to deal wounds. Other units are designed to take wounds. if you can kill a tarpit unit in one round, you had better be spending several times their points cost to do it because not dying immediately just because they got shot at is kind of their entire reason for existing in the first place. In fact, if you can annihilate them for roughly their points in one turn, it might actually be Unit B that's OP. Not the freaking conscripts...sorry. I meant Unit A.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 00:27:48


Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, yeah. 3 times the cost of the conscripts is fair to remove them, because they have negligible offensive output and exist for the express purpose of providing a roadblock. This is what I'm talking about.

You're upset that you have to overcommit to them to clear them out in one turn. Because guess what, equivalent cost of firepower will get rid of them in about 3 to 4 turns. About double their cost will remove them in 2 turns, which is entirely fair, yes?

Also, I'm part of the reason Sisters are at the top. Literally a quarter of the games listed here are mine [22.2%], and I won all of them.


Because you screwed up the cost, I thought sisters actually got dominions with a storm bolter for 10 points, which would be absurd, not the 12 they actually cost. So my statement was about sisters being absurdly cheap, given I thought they had 8 point dominions till i looked it up.

Second, you realize you literally no other unit is that resilient, right? It's literally just conscripts. Who, I once again remind you, are still more offensively powerful than most basic infantry units. Beat the crap out of termagaunts in resilience and firepower, while something like horrors has morale issues to actually balance them out, as well as almost no offensive power. They put out as much damage for cost as my vanguard do, roughly as much as normal SoB do as well.

The number of dominions it takes to almost kill 150 points of conscripts (actually only 120ish points dead) can wreck two full units of termagaunts, costing 240 points. Or kill around 17-18 tacticals, again in the 221-234 ish point range, assuming they were combat squaded so morale isn't an issue. Or 35 of my vanguard, for a solid 350 points killed. Note that the vanguard are the only unit here who actually outperform conscripts offensively, both termagaunts and normal tacticals do less damage than their equivalent in conscripts.

So... no that's not what any other army pays for bodies. It isn't even close. Even other cheap infantry who contribute as much or less than conscripts do for their value don't take that much to kill.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 00:37:01


 
   
 
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