Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 koooaei wrote:
What's making dark eldar so effective now?

A few reasons:
- Our vehicles no longer evaporate the moment someone looks at them funny.
- Dark Lances deal d6 Damage and aren't ignored by 2+ or 3+ cover all the time.
- Flyers can shoot what they want at whichever target they want (and start on the board).
- We can zoom across the board at full speed and grab objectives without impeding our firepower.
- Razorwing Flocks?

Also, scourges are pretty amazing and grotesques and liquefier talos are very solid. Plus the Tantalus is ace.

Just the sheer amount of D6 Weaponry they can bring, paired with a medium amount of mid level dakka make them SO scary.

Also, playing against a whole army with Flicker Fields AND night shields is just very hard for anyone to handle.

Had a few games this weekend

Adeptus Mechanicus - Ultramarines: Ultras win *
Spacewolves - CSM: Wolfy win
Ultramarines - CSM: Chaos took it **
CSM - CSM: well... Chaos won that one.

* to be fair, we rolled the mission where the only points are kill points, and I had made a fully mechanised Ad Mech army where almost every model was a solo unit. I had a lot of easy points for him to take out, and it was basically decided on that roll. I almost tabled him, but in my last round I had to kill his lord and a vindicare sniper, and there was no way I was gonna get both of them, so we called it there.

** In an insane amount of Maelstrom points, the game ended I believe 13-17. 13 is usually enough to win you a game, but here it wasn't even close.

 AaronWilson wrote:
Just the sheer amount of D6 Weaponry they can bring, paired with a medium amount of mid level dakka make them SO scary.

Also, playing against a whole army with Flicker Fields AND night shields is just very hard for anyone to handle.

Would it be that good against, say, a tyranid or ork horde? Cause what you've discribed seems to mostly be able to deal with vehicle spam.

 koooaei wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
Just the sheer amount of D6 Weaponry they can bring, paired with a medium amount of mid level dakka make them SO scary.

Also, playing against a whole army with Flicker Fields AND night shields is just very hard for anyone to handle.

Would it be that good against, say, a tyranid or ork horde? Cause what you've discribed seems to mostly be able to deal with vehicle spam.

No it wouldn't, but a list as above can have anything between 5-8 venoms, full of 5 man teams. The venoms them self throw our a good amount of dakka, paired with the guys and the splinter weaponry from razorwings the list has the potential to handle a horde. It would require solid positioning, movement and dependent on scenery for each game though.

 koooaei wrote:
What's making dark eldar so effective now?

They're basically Eldar +1 in several ways.

 Selym wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What's making dark eldar so effective now?

They're basically Eldar +1 in several ways.

It's funny how human psychology works. Eldar have been "your army +1" for so long and it was common knowledge that such state would last for whole eternity. And it's all gone on a whim and we, all the people who a couple moons ago would have treated eldar dominance as given, just shrug and say: "Well, dark eldar are eldar +1 now". That's how empires fall.

Debated doing this, but shouldn't hide the bad to bouy scores.

ATC weekend, 6 games. Was just largely disastrous for my team, baring one guy.

Eldar vs Space Marines: Eldar Loss
Eldar vs Genestealer Cult: Eldar Loss
Eldar vs Crons: Draw
Eldar vs Mechanicum: Eldar Win
Eldar vs Daemons: Eldar Loss
Eldar vs Chaos Marins: Eldar Loss

Traitor Knights vs Dark Eldar: Knight Win
Traitor Knights vs AM: Knight Win
Traitor Knights vs Space Pups: Knight Win
Traitor Knights vs Traitor Knights: Knight Win (Our Knight player)
Traitor Knights vs Ultramarines: Knight Win
Traitor Knigths vs AM: Knight Win

Necrons vs Daemons: Necron Loss
Necrons vs Traitor Knights: Necron Loss
Necrons vs Eldar: Necron Loss
Necrons vs AM: Necron Loss
Necrons vs Necrons: Our Necron Loss
Necrons vs Salamanders: Necron Loss


AM vs AM: Our AM loss
AM vs Orks: AM Loss
AM vs Mechanicum: AM Win
AM vs Daemons: AM Loss
AM vs Imp Knights: AM Loss
AM vs Tau: AM Loss (Tau player went 90 of 120 points, did very respectably, Stormsurge spam)

Daemons vs Genestealer Cult: Daemon Loss
Daemons vs Mechanicum:: DaemonsLoss
Damons vs Blood Angels: Daemon Win
Daemons vs Orks: Daemon Loss
Daemons vs Eldar: Daemon Loss
Daemons vs Tyranids: Draw

 Selym wrote:
Impressivley, this is 21 armies over 1330 games. The lowest army (SoB) having a little over 20 games, the highest (IG) at over 150.

That's 63.33333 games per army!

Or, about 62.33333 more "test" games than Games Workshop runs on average.

It has just occurred to me that I made a methodological error. Since one game generates one win-stat and one loss-stat, the actual number of games being observed is near half the quoted figure, as I had counted both wins and losses. However, it is not quite half due to some of the wins or losses being paired with armies that have not had 20+ games yet.

So... Yeah.

Still impressive though.

 koooaei wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What's making dark eldar so effective now?

They're basically Eldar +1 in several ways.

It's funny how human psychology works. Eldar have been "your army +1" for so long and it was common knowledge that such state would last for whole eternity. And it's all gone on a whim and we, all the people who a couple moons ago would have treated eldar dominance as given, just shrug and say: "Well, dark eldar are eldar +1 now". That's how empires fall.

At last, we shall have our revenge.

Current W/L Table:



WORLD EATERS OUT OF LEFT FIELD, STORMING THROUGH THE OPPOSITION! >:O

Updated.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Updated.

Merci!

Here is the new analysis:



Something that I think most people might not realise is this data shows that everything Eldar and down is statistically NOT better than Tau. Only the top 5 are.

I'm not convinced that people are reporting their wins and losses fairly. Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second? Or are you just playing well below your army level?

Anyway,

BA vs GK - BA victory (1000 points)
BA vs GK - GK victory (1500 points)

Both games were a decisive tabling.

One tremendous oversight in the BA codex is the leadership of death company. They don't get a sergeant, so their leadership is 7. The elite Blood Angels Death Company has the exact same leadership as your average guardsman. WUT? This came up because I always take Purge Soul on Draigo, who has a base leadership of 10. 10+D6 vs 7+D6. He rolled a 2, I rolled a 5, obliterating an entire squad of DC with 1 spell, dealing 6 mortal wounds.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not convinced that people are reporting their wins and losses fairly. Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second? Or are you just playing well below your army level?

Anyway,

BA vs GK - BA victory (1000 points)
BA vs GK - GK victory (1500 points)

Both games were a decisive tabling.

One tremendous oversight in the BA codex is the leadership of death company. They don't get a sergeant, so their leadership is 7. The elite Blood Angels Death Company has the exact same leadership as your average guardsman. WUT? This came up because I always take Purge Soul on Draigo, who has a base leadership of 10. 10+D6 vs 7+D6. He rolled a 2, I rolled a 5, obliterating an entire squad of DC with 1 spell, dealing 6 mortal wounds.

Guardsmen are Ld6.

 djones520 wrote:

AM vs AM: Our AM loss
AM vs Orks: AM Loss
AM vs Mechanicum: AM Win
AM vs Daemons: AM Loss
AM vs Imp Knights: AM Loss
AM vs Tau: AM Loss (Tau player went 90 of 120 points, did very respectably, Stormsurge spam)

Astra Militarum or Adeptus Mechanicus?

Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second?

Each game I played I went 2nd. I won each game. All 2 of them

Ive won all but one so far. Going second 50/50. Tge one I lost I did go second and deployed like an idiot.

Having tough units and no unit that I can't afford to lose helps though.

Drager wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

AM vs AM: Our AM loss
AM vs Orks: AM Loss
AM vs Mechanicum: AM Win
AM vs Daemons: AM Loss
AM vs Imp Knights: AM Loss
AM vs Tau: AM Loss (Tau player went 90 of 120 points, did very respectably, Stormsurge spam)

Astra Militarum or Adeptus Mechanicus?

He consistently says "mechanicum" wherever it's ad mech.

Cool. I didn't spot that. AM is a confusing abbreviation.

Drager wrote:

Something that I think most people might not realise is this data shows that everything Eldar and down is statistically NOT better than Tau. Only the top 5 are.

Can you explain what are the negative score please ?

Sure. Négative score is the number of armies statistically superior to that army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not convinced that people are reporting their wins and losses fairly. Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second? Or are you just playing well below your army level?

Anyway,

BA vs GK - BA victory (1000 points)
BA vs GK - GK victory (1500 points)

Both games were a decisive tabling.

One tremendous oversight in the BA codex is the leadership of death company. They don't get a sergeant, so their leadership is 7. The elite Blood Angels Death Company has the exact same leadership as your average guardsman. WUT? This came up because I always take Purge Soul on Draigo, who has a base leadership of 10. 10+D6 vs 7+D6. He rolled a 2, I rolled a 5, obliterating an entire squad of DC with 1 spell, dealing 6 mortal wounds.

Guardsmen are Ld6.

Sergeant brings them to 7 tho right?

And even then. These are the elite most BA. You pay like 180+ for 5 of them. And they DO suffer morale losses... they're just power armored marines with a 6+FNP... they should be LD 8 with a sergeant.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not convinced that people are reporting their wins and losses fairly. Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second? Or are you just playing well below your army level?

My current games played in 8th:
When I went 1st: W5 D1 L1
When I went 2nd: W3 D0 L0

Going second always seems to allow me to get the counter-charge, get in range, deal with my opponants deep striking units, etc. I take a good battering in the first turn but I quite quickly turn it around (maybe counter deep strike units have something to do with it?).

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not convinced that people are reporting their wins and losses fairly. Claiming that you've never lost a game in 8th is suspect. Have you never gone second? Or are you just playing well below your army level?

My current games played in 8th:
When I went 1st: W5 D1 L1
When I went 2nd: W3 D0 L0

Going second always seems to allow me to get the counter-charge, get in range, deal with my opponants deep striking units, etc. I take a good battering in the first turn but I quite quickly turn it around (maybe counter deep strike units have something to do with it?).

I find i lose at least a quarter of my army going second.

In the 1500 point game I won, i did go second. I lost my raven, and some models inside due to the crash. That comes out to be over 20% of my list easily, and my only true anti-tank, other than the NDK. Additionally, my purifiers were stranded in the back.

The problem was my opponent had invested quite a bit into his storm raven, and even without anti-tank, my purifiers were able to advance into smite range to his raven, and deal 2D6 mortal wounds. Rolls slightly on the luck side, and I did 9 mortal wounds with the 2 purifiers. The NDK hopped over a wall, smited it, and draigo smited it as well. So it was left with 3 wounds remaining at the end of psychic, and I was able to shoot it down with the NDK, thanks to Draigo rerolls.

Inside the raven was a kitted dreadnought and some death company, which got obliterated as they were now in charge range. Additionally, my deep-strike paladins /w falchions and hammerhand got into combat with his warlord, getting a 12 on the charge roll (LOL) and did something like 5d3 wounds, we didn't even roll, just removed Dante.

So, by overexposing and going hard to kill my raven, he made his entire army vulnerable, and I rolled well. FWIW the map was "the scouring."

But all in all, I can't remember where I heard it, but in ITC games, the person who goes first wins 80% of the time.

 Marmatag wrote:
I find i lose at least a quarter of my army going second.

In the 1500 point game I won, i did go second. I lost my raven, and some models inside due to the crash. That comes out to be over 20% of my list easily, and my only true anti-tank, other than the NDK. Additionally, my purifiers were stranded in the back.

The problem was my opponent had invested quite a bit into his storm raven, and even without anti-tank, my purifiers were able to advance into smite range to his raven, and deal 2D6 mortal wounds. Rolls slightly on the luck side, and I did 9 mortal wounds with the 2 purifiers. The NDK hopped over a wall, smited it, and draigo smited it as well. So it was left with 3 wounds remaining at the end of psychic, and I was able to shoot it down with the NDK, thanks to Draigo rerolls.

Inside the raven was a kitted dreadnought and some death company, which got obliterated as they were now in charge range. Additionally, my deep-strike paladins /w falchions and hammerhand got into combat with his warlord, getting a 12 on the charge roll (LOL) and did something like 5d3 wounds, we didn't even roll, just removed Dante.

So, by overexposing and going hard to kill my raven, he made his entire army vulnerable, and I rolled well. FWIW the map was "the scouring."

But all in all, I can't remember where I heard it, but in ITC games, the person who goes first wins 80% of the time.

That's a big part of why I've won all the games I've gon second in: my opponant deep strikes, teleports, psychics, etc. their big hitters into my face then all of their firepower goes into taking down whatever big meany I've brought with me (Renegade Knight, Lord of Skulls, Magnus, Bloodthirster). Then after he's killed or crippled my big monster, half of my Berzerkers pile out and slaughter whatever he sent to take it down and my Terminators drop from the sky and cripple my opponant's big meany. I played a game against an Ork player where he got off a first turn charge on two 30 man boy squads that destroyed my Heldrake and crippled my Bloodthirster, half my Berzerkers then slaughtered one Boy unit and a Daemon Prince + the Bloofthirster slaughtered the other. Having something big and nasty looking seems to be the key of winning games this edition.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find i lose at least a quarter of my army going second.

In the 1500 point game I won, i did go second. I lost my raven, and some models inside due to the crash. That comes out to be over 20% of my list easily, and my only true anti-tank, other than the NDK. Additionally, my purifiers were stranded in the back.

The problem was my opponent had invested quite a bit into his storm raven, and even without anti-tank, my purifiers were able to advance into smite range to his raven, and deal 2D6 mortal wounds. Rolls slightly on the luck side, and I did 9 mortal wounds with the 2 purifiers. The NDK hopped over a wall, smited it, and draigo smited it as well. So it was left with 3 wounds remaining at the end of psychic, and I was able to shoot it down with the NDK, thanks to Draigo rerolls.

Inside the raven was a kitted dreadnought and some death company, which got obliterated as they were now in charge range. Additionally, my deep-strike paladins /w falchions and hammerhand got into combat with his warlord, getting a 12 on the charge roll (LOL) and did something like 5d3 wounds, we didn't even roll, just removed Dante.

So, by overexposing and going hard to kill my raven, he made his entire army vulnerable, and I rolled well. FWIW the map was "the scouring."

But all in all, I can't remember where I heard it, but in ITC games, the person who goes first wins 80% of the time.

That's a big part of why I've won all the games I've gon second in: my opponant deep strikes, teleports, psychics, etc. their big hitters into my face then all of their firepower goes into taking down whatever big meany I've brought with me (Renegade Knight, Lord of Skulls, Magnus, Bloodthirster). Then after he's killed or crippled my big monster, half of my Berzerkers pile out and slaughter whatever he sent to take it down and my Terminators drop from the sky and cripple my opponant's big meany. I played a game against an Ork player where he got off a first turn charge on two 30 man boy squads that destroyed my Heldrake and crippled my Bloodthirster, half my Berzerkers then slaughtered one Boy unit and a Daemon Prince + the Bloofthirster slaughtered the other. Having something big and nasty looking seems to be the key of winning games this edition.

I agree.

I think this is why Imperial Guard are so strong though in this edition. Most armies have to pay some price to alpha strike, in the form of exposing themselves or splitting their forces thanks to the 50% requirement. Meanwhile, you can have your 10 manticores sit back, completely safe, and hit literally anything on the table with 0 risk whatsoever. 10D6 dice with rerolls to hit, at strength 10, -2 d3? Things will die, and you don't even need to move an inch.

Thoughts on Splitting "Imperium Knights" vs "Renegade/Chaos Knights".

The extra gun options and the Hellwright make the Chaos knights as different from Imperium as Chaos Marines vs Space.

Looking back through, the Chaos Knight W/L is very very good, and the Imperium Knight W/L is so-so average.

I think the distinction is important.