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Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

I took your point and I very much agree.

Worf's family drama was a running theme across TNG and DS9. He didn't come right out and just resolve it and frankly his whole deal was a lot less overly dramatic than you see in a lot of shows today. Worf was basically a war orphan. He wasn't a war orphan who was then enslaved who was then forced to watch everyone he knew die who then learned the cruelty of his captors who then got set adrift in space and holy gak there's like 5 different traumatic origin stories in this one character wtf.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

That's enough stress to give me a gorch just reading all that conflict let alone a character surviving it emotionally intact.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It's the whole "gotta be bigger" issue.

It's the same reason that in series like Stargate each "new bad" that comes along is WAY worse than the previous "big bad".

It's basically the idea that more is better taken to the extreme, which often results in, when its used for stories, a story that increasingly becomes hard to believe.



Supernatural is a great example of where this approach to story writing can very quickly go off the rails. Several seasons in and it increasingly becomes apparent that the world should not exist considering how 2 rather average brothers have almost destroyed it several times over.



It's a very easy trap to fall into and many writers fall into it. I think its born of a desire to always "improve" upon what was and improving upon a big evil threat; or a dark backstory is to make it even more. To make the big evil even more evil; to make the backstory even darker.

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Lebanon NH

I would also like to throw the idea out that it would be totally and completely awesome if the super-damaged-super-dark backstory for the security chief was actually just a total lie.

Like, she really had this very normal and loving family life, totally normal career, and she is just a big ol liar (maybe pathological, maybe just cause she wants to seem interesting, maybe some other reason).

It would also work really well with her seemingly machiavellian tendencies in manipulating people.

Actually... have we EVER just had a big ol liar on Star-Trek? Someone who is just consistently BS'ing everyone? The closest that comes to my mind is either the way that Scotty straight up admits that he used to pad his estimates for repairs and such, or the way that Riker is seemingly ALWAYS bluffing at poker.
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Should Pike really count as a Tragic Backstory when his whole deal is knowing that it’s future tragedy that is to befall him? Plus his thing happened in a previous season of Discovery so it’s not really an episode one sort of deal.

 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 AduroT wrote:
Should Pike really count as a Tragic Backstory when his whole deal is knowing that it’s future tragedy that is to befall him? Plus his thing happened in a previous season of Discovery so it’s not really an episode one sort of deal.


It also plays into his appearance in TOS so I think that's different.

Also it would be hilarious if La'an's backstory was a lie XD Lorca previously pulled that move though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/14 21:41:11


   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






I'd argue that since Pike had that vision in Discovery his dealing with it is more akin to Picard's issues post Best of Both Worlds, personally, since we have examples of him before and after the traumatic event.

Either way though, I don't see the problem with this so far. La'an's big traumatic event is about on par with Kirk's or Kira's, but Uhura's is much smaller and more personal in scope.

And while everyone everywhere ever has baggage of some kind, here's hoping the faux-hawk pilot has a big happy family and no skeletons in the closet.

   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

leerm02 wrote:
I would also like to throw the idea out that it would be totally and completely awesome if the super-damaged-super-dark backstory for the security chief was actually just a total lie.

Like, she really had this very normal and loving family life, totally normal career, and she is just a big ol liar (maybe pathological, maybe just cause she wants to seem interesting, maybe some other reason).

It would also work really well with her seemingly machiavellian tendencies in manipulating people.

Actually... have we EVER just had a big ol liar on Star-Trek? Someone who is just consistently BS'ing everyone? The closest that comes to my mind is either the way that Scotty straight up admits that he used to pad his estimates for repairs and such, or the way that Riker is seemingly ALWAYS bluffing at poker.


Barclay on Next Gen and his dodgy holo programs?

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

For a long term characters Quark and Garrak might be the most frequent to stretch the truth.

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Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Overread wrote:
For a long term characters Quark and Garrak might be the most frequent to stretch the truth.
Both of whom were supposed to contrast with the Federation characters world view and choices....


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Harcourt Fenton Mudd was known for telling porkies, quite a lot. Only in 3 episodes, though (2 TOS, 1 TAS ) but he might also have been in a Disco one (or was it a short trek?)

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
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Lebanon NH

You have my utmost respect for using his full name like that :-)

He was always one of my favorite TOS characters!
   
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Melbourne

 chromedog wrote:
Harcourt Fenton Mudd was known for telling porkies, quite a lot. Only in 3 episodes, though (2 TOS, 1 TAS ) but he might also have been in a Disco one (or was it a short trek?)


2 Disco ones I believe.

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Made in us
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

In somewhat Star Trek related news: The Voyager 1 probe is having some mysterious problems.
And all I can think of while reading that is "this is how we get V'ger".

Somewhat timely, too, given that we're getting a V'ger-related storyline in Star Trek Online.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 01:12:07


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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

I think I'm most excited about the first sighting of Disco McCoy the most. That bling and beard...

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Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





Started watching first episode of SNW, and stopped after they mentioned the cursed DIS(aster) ship. I thought it is not in the same universe with that abomination. Ugh, I guess one less series to follow.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







...it's a spin-off from the end of season 2 of Discovery, with at least Pike and Number One (I think) being the same actors. Why wouldn't they mention it, at least in passing?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Shadow Walker wrote:
Started watching first episode of SNW, and stopped after they mentioned the cursed DIS(aster) ship. I thought it is not in the same universe with that abomination. Ugh, I guess one less series to follow.


Discovery is part of the prime timeline, you can hate that but thats the mentality they're following. that said turning the show off because they mention in passing the ship? that's petty. Maybe judge the show on I dunno.. it's own merits?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 18:09:45


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
Started watching first episode of SNW, and stopped after they mentioned the cursed DIS(aster) ship. I thought it is not in the same universe with that abomination. Ugh, I guess one less series to follow.


Discovery is part of the prime timeline, you can hate that but thats the mentality they're following. that said turning the show off because they mention in passing the ship? that's petty. Maybe judge the show on I dunno.. it's own merits?

Even before mentioning that pizza cutter the show was barely worth watching so they only helped me to decide.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 20:48:07


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

3rd episode is a mixed bag IMO.

I continue to like the return to classic Star Trek episodic plots. There is a problem of the week. The characters try to solve it. They end up facing themselves and the world around them in the process. The galaxy isn't about to implode if they don't do something stupid that only makes sense because the plot is stupid. Good Trek.

The characters continue to kind of agitate me. Why is it that the most normal people on this crew are the blind Andorian and the buzz cut pilot? At this rate, they probably have a stupidly convoluted secret history too that will crop up just to be a banal complication and distraction from what's actually good. There was a great idea in this episode, but it gets strangled by characters revealing their secrets... And two of them are particularly dumb in this episode.

Spoiler:
The Federation has no law against all genetic engineering. Only trying to create super-people is banned. Gene therapies have been part of Star Trek lore since TOS and while the Illyrian angle is sort of interesting, it feels overly dramatic for what it is. Bashir already did this character and it was a lot better because it was a lot more nuanced.

It's rather bizarre seeing the Illyrians come back up in those context after their one appearance in Enterprise too.

The Federation also has cryogenic technology. Why the feth is the doctor storing his kid in a damn transporter, in secret, on a ship that goes on dangerous missions? I'm sorry. That's fething stupid and we know it's going to be the source of a stupid plot point later. It could explain why Bones became chief medical officer in the time of TOS while M'Benga was still on the ship cause he got demoted or something, but it's just so eye rollingly dumb.

Are the writers just aenemic to normal people with relatable normal people problems?


Maybe they want us to dislike the cast so they can all gradually get replaced/sidelined for gradually bringing in the rest of the TOS crew?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 21:23:53


   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Ahem, he is Aenar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 21:31:15


 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






While I also find it strange that you'd dump the most positively received Trek show they've yet put out within the first 15 minutes over a reference to another show and then go around bragging about it, you're at least walking the walk many others promised to and didn't, so good for you, I guess?

Anyway, for me, I gave it the 3 episode shake and I'm overall pretty happy with the show so far and willing to see it through the season at least. Three episodes, three very resonably well put together TOS style adventures that manage to sell themselves as modern without parodying the source material. Here's hoping I didn't get bamboozled.

As for the episode itself...

Spoiler:
We do have another tragic backstory to add to the list, while I wasn't complaining about it before the good doctor keeping his littlest cancer patient daughter in the transporter buffer forever rubs me the wrong way. Even though this is the obvious answer to every medical emergency in Trek ever and I'm glad to see it get addressed.

The twist with Number One is... odd. On the one hand it's being introduced early to make it part of the established initial setup for the show, and it would probably have been too Bashir if they had waited longer to do this reveal anyway, but on the other hand, just in-universe I don't understand how she wasn't caught sooner?

We also have confirmation that the people of the federation are not morons and understand the significance of La'an's last name, and also may be confirmation she's not actually genetically augmented herself. Does she still have traces of it in her makeup, or did one of her ancestors go through a super involved de-volving procedure like the aliens were trying to do here?

   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

I think the Federation being stupidly moronic, to the point of being viciously cruel, is one of the things that really turned me off Picard and that I can look back on and see as annoying about Discovery.

Spoiler:
The reveals of this episode kind of compound that issue to me in a really annoying way. The Denobulans are Federation members and also canonically practiced genetic engineering. There must still be genetically engineered legacies in humans even if they're not actively practicing it anymore. Nothing has ever suggested the Federation is so paranoid about genetic engineering that they hard stop it in any and all contexts. Quite the opposite in fact. The first first episode of SNW's even goes into it, so where does this 'I'm genetically engineered but my entire species does it and we're not evil but I have to hide that all costs because of bigotry' thing come from?

On that angle, I actually find La'an more interesting than before. If she's just related to Khan distantly and part of her plot is dealing with that prejudice, there's a good angle there.

It's not like I want the Federation to be perfect. It's displayed prejudices before. But those prejudices made sense in context and the Federation was not so dogmatic that it was uncompassionate. They've dealt with genetic engineering in other shows without taking it to the point of outright bigotry and Federation prejudices reaching the point of outright bigotry I think is pissing on the source material a bit. This feels like that damned annoying check list rearing its head in the writing again, where things come up not because they make sense but because the board room wants to check all the boxes on what they think the audience wants even if it makes the writing bad.

Furthermore, the characters were the people we want enlightened humans to be in how they tackled those prejudices head on. In this case, it just feels moronic.

And it makes we wonder why La'an needs a whole other set of personal tragedy. Discovery and Picard feel to much like misery porn to be Star Trek and I didn't like that. They've at least avoided the plot here being misery porn, but the characters still feel like they're written to maximize everyone's misery and I don't like that.


The whole sub-plot feels insanely forced solely to some overwrought drama later that I'm already tired of before it's even started. Depends I guess on how these plots shake out. Maybe I'll be surprised. If nothing else the structure of the shows lets me kind of push the annoying bits to the side.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 21:57:59


   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






 LordofHats wrote:
Spoiler:
The Federation has no law against all genetic engineering. Only trying to create super-people is banned. Gene therapies have been part of Star Trek lore since TOS and while the Illyrian angle is sort of interesting, it feels overly dramatic for what it is. Bashir already did this character and it was a lot better because it was a lot more nuanced.


Spoiler:
How was that addressed in TOS? I legit don't remember. While they are bandying the term 'genetic engineering' as though its synonymous with creating super-people, the Illyrians were clearly doing just that.

   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Spoiler:
How was that addressed in TOS? I legit don't remember. While they are bandying the term 'genetic engineering' as though its synonymous with creating super-people, the Illyrians were clearly doing just that.


Part of it is the issue of how Star Trek lore has evolved.

Spoiler:
In TOS, it's only ever mentioned that Earth banned genetic engineering. It only ever explicitly comes up in Space Seed, but that episode doesn't say the entire Federation banned it. The series has regularly engaged in genetic technobabble medicine. Starfleet's ban on genetically engineered persons doesn't come up until DS9, and even then it's Starfleet's ban, not the Federation's. That's maybe understandable as humans are really the spinal cord of Starfleet, even if it is open to basically everyone. It makes sense that Starfleet would reflect certain biases specific to humans.

This episode kind of compounds the issue for me all the same though. I suppose now that I look at the episode history, #1 has reason to be concerned. We could easily just take this as Starfleet's ban on genetically engineered super-persons goes back to this era and that tracks, but the idea that the Federation refuses peoples who do it from joining runs smack into the face of Denobulans being members, and numerous instances of the Federation engaging cordially with species who engineer in this manny in TNG, VOY, and DS9. I suppose retrospectively, there's enough holes here that it can work lorewise and what I really don't like is the idea that the Federation stood by and told an entire species that was peaceful to feth off because of bigotry that runs completely counter to everything the Federation is supposed to be and that we're setting up an entire sub-plot about the Federation being irrationally bigotted just so we can check off a box of a list of trendy topics to shallowly address in media. It's the wrong angle for this topic and this series.

Compare to the DS9 episode where Bajor looks like it might return to a caste system and are warned it would prevent them from joining the Federation. The episode doesn't mence topics there. Caste systems are bad. The Federation doesn't allow them. In comparison, the Federation clearly makes exceptions for genetic engineering when it's not going too far and creating different classes of people. Maybe my issue really is just a framing issue here and one that subsequent episodes will clear up in a way I find satisfactory.


On a more episode-specific basis, boy isn't the Enterprise lucky this specific person this specific history was on board. If they hadn't been there, I dare say everyone would have died and the show would be over.

In writing circles, we call that kind of contrivance a deus ex machine and it's kind of annoying more and more the more I talk about it >.>

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 22:28:31


   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






That's Star Trek though, isn't it?
Like that time the Enterprise D encountered a Klingon ship that still thought it was the Fed-Klingon war and they had Worf and Kheylar on board to dissuade them. Or the time Voyager got attacked by Klingons in the Delta Quadrant and just so happened to have a pregnant Belanna on board with her half-human baby. Or that time that Sisko stopped a war between Bajor and Cardassia because he just so happened to be the Emissary of the Prophets and got Dukat's ship out of the Bajoran Wormhole. Or that time when the NX-Enterprise got almost taken over by Orions but Trip had a special connection with T'pol so was the only man on board not affected by the horny.
Should I go on or what?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 00:09:27


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Coincidence != contrivance, admitting of course that the distinction is a blurry line and quite subjective.

And while Star Trek is also no stranger to contrivance, I find this particular case very very lazy. Maybe if the overall point of the episode were less muddled it could work, but I'm just not sold on the whole drama (or possibly bitter that the much more interesting drama was the B plot). Mileage will very.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 00:29:02


   
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 LordofHats wrote:

Are the writers just aenemic to normal people with relatable normal people problems?


Hollywood screenwriters aren't normal people. They can't fathom what normal people are actually like.

This is why we have characters on shows who are perpetually unemployed but live alone in multi-million $ apartments in major urban areas like LA and NY where rent would be >$10K a month. They have no concept of normal anything.

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 Gert wrote:
One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?

I hate DIS(aster) with a passion. If SNW is in the same universe as that abomination it is reason enough to not watch it.
   
 
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