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Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






So give up on all Star Trek shows going forward because they’re all in it.

 
   
Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





 AduroT wrote:
So give up on all Star Trek shows going forward because they’re all in it.

No problem with that. There are many new s-f shows out there (like Halo), and I can always see old ST (like my favourite TNG) again.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Shadow Walker wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
So give up on all Star Trek shows going forward because they’re all in it.

No problem with that. There are many new s-f shows out there (like Halo), and I can always see old ST (like my favourite TNG) again.

...but they're also in the same timeline as Discovery, as far as I'm aware, so they're now also tainted by association, preventing you from watching them in the future.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Gert wrote:
One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?

I hate DIS(aster) with a passion. If SNW is in the same universe as that abomination it is reason enough to not watch it.


Ok, I'm gonna ask it because no one else has.

How much of discovery have you actually WATCHED?

and no "plot summeries by youtubers claiming it's aweful" doesn't count. How much have you watched?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





BrianDavion wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Gert wrote:
One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?

I hate DIS(aster) with a passion. If SNW is in the same universe as that abomination it is reason enough to not watch it.


Ok, I'm gonna ask it because no one else has.

How much of discovery have you actually WATCHED?

and no "plot summeries by youtubers claiming it's aweful" doesn't count. How much have you watched?

The entire first season.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
So give up on all Star Trek shows going forward because they’re all in it.

No problem with that. There are many new s-f shows out there (like Halo), and I can always see old ST (like my favourite TNG) again.

...but they're also in the same timeline as Discovery, as far as I'm aware, so they're now also tainted by association, preventing you from watching them in the future.

I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc. And you trying to ridicule my choices will not change them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 08:44:54


 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Shadow Walker wrote:

I hate DIS(aster) with a passion. If SNW is in the same universe as that abomination it is reason enough to not watch it.

Then you'll be stuck watching the Kelvin timelime because Discovery is the prime universe.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 09:00:12


 
   
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 Gert wrote:

Then you'll be stuck watching the Kelvin timelime because Discovery is the prime universe.

See my answer from the post above about that subject.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 Shadow Walker wrote:
I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.
   
Made in pl
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beast_gts wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.

I guess that his father is rolling in his grave with a speed of Warp 10.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Shadow Walker wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.

I guess that his father is rolling in his grave with a speed of Warp 10.


Because people on the internet is salty?

They were salty about TNG too, and that turned into 3 series in the same timeline, and of course 4 movies of franky variable quality. One suspects Mr Roddenberry is very much resting in peace?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






So essentially you hate everything that’s in the same timeline as Discovery, except for the stuff you already watched?

 
   
Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.

I guess that his father is rolling in his grave with a speed of Warp 10.


Because people on the internet is salty?

They were salty about TNG too, and that turned into 3 series in the same timeline, and of course 4 movies of franky variable quality. One suspects Mr Roddenberry is very much resting in peace?

Comparing TNG to the abomination with a magic mushroom drive


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AduroT wrote:
So essentially you hate everything that’s in the same timeline as Discovery, except for the stuff you already watched?

It is in the same timeline only because a greedy son of the famous father thinks that he can milk any garbage just because he puts a ST name into it. For me it will never be a part of the same universe as TNG etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 12:23:15


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Comparing TOS to the abomination with a ship’s counsellor on the bridge.

Comparing TOS to the abomination with a Klingon officer on the bridge.

Comparing TOS to the abomination with a young teen serving on the bridge.

Do you see where I’m going with this? By all means if you don’t enjoy the new stuff, you don’t enjoy it. That’s solely your business and your opinion is to be respected.

Just realise the complaints folk have we raised against TNG too. We just didn’t have the internet where they could remind us every five minutes they didn’t enjoy something.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Comparing TOS to the abomination with a ship’s counsellor on the bridge.

Comparing TOS to the abomination with a Klingon officer on the bridge.

Comparing TOS to the abomination with a young teen serving on the bridge.

Do you see where I’m going with this? By all means if you don’t enjoy the new stuff, you don’t enjoy it. That’s solely your business and your opinion is to be respected.

Just realise the complaints folk have we raised against TNG too. We just didn’t have the internet where they could remind us every five minutes they didn’t enjoy something.

A) I never said that my opinion was law or something. I stated it and was immediately attacked as if it was a crime or I would be insane having it.
B) Do you seriously compare a new Starfleet programmes of having councellor/Klingon officer (who BTW was an orphan, and graduated the Academy)/families on board to something with a magic mushroom drive/Klingon ships looking not even little similar to official Klingon ships of that era etc. etc.?
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…

 
   
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 AduroT wrote:
It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…

TNG/movies Klingons looked just like they always wanted them to look but never had the budget to do them in TOS. It is not the same as changing them just for the sake of change, just like their ships.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

Regarding the "how convenient that they happened to have that EXACT person when they needed them!" discussion a bit back in the posts:

One of my old writing professors once gave out what I still consider to be a bit of golden advice.

He said to us that people will always accept the impossible in their impossible stories- monsters and magic and faster-then-light travel- because that is what they came there for. If they didn't want to see a story about magic then they wouldn't be reading Harry Potter in the first place.

What people will NEVER accept is the improbable. Things that could happen, but almost certainly wouldn't. That sort of thing stands out to the audience and takes them away from the suspension of disbelief. So, we can accept that Captain Pike has a troubled past where something extraordinary happened to him and now he has to deal with it in his captaincy (his "normal" job in this universe)... but it seems improbable that each and every person he talks to or interacts with has a similar story as well.

It starts to strain our sense of how probability itself works to have to also accept that in this vast and impossible universe, these very specifically damaged characters would both serve together and also be directly related to whatever plot line they happen to come across.

To me, this reminds me of the starting session of a new D&D campaign, where a bunch of wildly interesting characters happen to come across one another in "Joes Medieval Tavern" in the fantasy equivalent of hicksville, and spend the first thirty minutes telling one another their thrilling and almost certainly traumatic origin stories before moving on to the nearest goblin camp or whatever.

Now, I want to be clear that I actually AM enjoying the new series and I AM looking forward to it each week... but these ridiculous and convenient backstories being shoved down our throats are starting to feel like a DM being like: "Oh, and Chad's ranger TOTALLY was captured by these goblins when he was a boy, and they tortured him for like ten years. Isn't that right, Chad?"

"Sure man. Totally."
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 AduroT wrote:
It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…


Or Romulan ships looking completely different.

Or suddenly introducing Ferengi, Borg, Jem Hadar and Cardassians as galactic movers and shakers not at all mentioned previously.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…


Or Romulan ships looking completely different.

Or suddenly introducing Ferengi, Borg, Jem Hadar and Cardassians as galactic movers and shakers not at all mentioned previously.

All being easily explained by TOS limited budget, and/or still unexplored space at that era.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 AduroT wrote:
So give up on all Star Trek shows going forward because they’re all in it.


I did and I don’t regret it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
beast_gts wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.


Ask me how I feel about Brian Herbert’s Dune books.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 15:32:58


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…


Or Romulan ships looking completely different.

Or suddenly introducing Ferengi, Borg, Jem Hadar and Cardassians as galactic movers and shakers not at all mentioned previously.

All being easily explained by TOS limited budget, and/or still unexplored space at that era.


Ah, handwavium.

Everything I’ve mentioned was moaned about heavily during TNG by weirdo TOS Puritans. And everything I’ve mentioned is what you’re complaining about Disco and Picard.


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…


Or Romulan ships looking completely different.

Or suddenly introducing Ferengi, Borg, Jem Hadar and Cardassians as galactic movers and shakers not at all mentioned previously.

All being easily explained by TOS limited budget, and/or still unexplored space at that era.


Ah, handwavium.

Everything I’ve mentioned was moaned about heavily during TNG by weirdo TOS Puritans. And everything I’ve mentioned is what you’re complaining about Disco and Picard.


A) I am not complaining about Picard. It had it flaws (like Q and El-Aurians story) but I still liked it, and intend to watch season 3. Unlike DIS, I never had the feeling I am not watching ST show.
B) I am not handwaving what you posted. I am pointing that comparison of DIS to TNG makes no sense. Simply stating that people were having difficulties to accept the changes does not make it any more comparable to what DIS did with the long established canon. In TOS time they had no budget to make proper make-up or many ship variants etc. etc. With TNG they could make all that reality. DIS changed things for a sake of change, because some moron thought that ST cannot be ST to sell it for the new audience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 16:14:19


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Discovery poisoned the relatively good and aged piece of steak that was Star Trek. Now there is a deadly dose of poison in the marinade the chef prepared, so while the steak is great, even a single small dose is enough to kill sadly. It's all rubbish now because that thought in my head that Discovery and Picard are somehow all in the same timeline, and while I could theoretically still eat the steak, there is still however the thought of dealing with the poison down the line.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

They aren’t in the same timeline and never will be for any discerning fan. Might as well tell me the new Ghostbusters films are in the same timeline as the originals, and the cartoon.

Despite common sense and basic observation saying otherwise, Splinter in the Mind’s Eye totally happened between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, guys. Lucas film said so.


I’m also fine considering TOS and Movies-TNG-DS9-Voyager as different continuities. They just both happen to be good continuities, unlike the Melvin Timeline and Paramount Plus Trek.

   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






 Shadow Walker wrote:
A) I am not complaining about Picard. It had it flaws (like Q and El-Aurians story) but I still liked it, and intend to watch season 3. Unlike DIS, I never had the feeling I am not watching ST show.


Funny enough, that was my exact complaint about Picard when they were...
Spoiler:
running around the chateau, dodging bullets, killing highly trained mercenaries (assimilated by the Borg, no less) with knives.


It was like watching a netflix original Bruce Willis movie, right down to the bad CGI squibs and muzzle flashes.


 Shadow Walker wrote:
B) I am not handwaving what you posted. I am pointing that comparison of DIS to TNG makes no sense. Simply stating that people were having difficulties to accept the changes does not make it any more comparable to what DIS did with the long established canon. In TOS time they had no budget to make proper make-up or many ship variants etc. etc. With TNG they could make all that reality. DIS changed things for a sake of change, because some moron thought that ST cannot be ST to sell it for the new audience.


Not for nothing, the TNG era had a lot of these problems too: the Excelsior and Miranda classes are insanely venerable in-universe because the creators of the show had access to the models, and the shows budget leads to all sorts of weird scenarios on screen, etc. Enterprise re-uses CGI ship assets from the TNG era, there are elements on the set of that show that look (and are, conceptually) more futuristic than TNG tech. The need for Star Trek to be set in the future requires a certain amount of visual flair and aesthetic that will change with the times when the shows are made, and I think we can agree on that.

The other part of it, Discovery's story choices are canon, yes, they smashed through existing lore like a Star Trek: Enterprise sized bull in a china shop, yes, they have to work around it as best they can when they bump into something else they're making. It has, so far, been limited to the gentlest of nods in the first 15 minutes of the first episode of Strange New Worlds, in order to hand off the TOS era to the new series while Discovery gets flung into the far far future. If that is enough to convince you to dump Strange New Worlds, then maybe that hypothetical moron is right, and you can't make money doing a Star Trek-like Star Trek.

   
Made in us
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USA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Just realise the complaints folk have we raised against TNG too. We just didn’t have the internet where they could remind us every five minutes they didn’t enjoy something.


I humorously commented on this in a STO chat recently.

If there is one tried and true tradition with the Star Trek fanbase it's that anything new sucks and isn't real Star Trek XD It was said about TAS. It was said about TNG. It was said about DS9. It was said about Voyager etc etc

I amusing noted that while the fanbase largely came around on DS9 and TNG over the past 20 years (especially DS9 which I'd argue has rocketed to being the most acclaimed entry in the franchise in the past 10 years), it never seemed to be quite true of Voyager or Enterprise. Voyager, as if just to prove me wrong, has been getting something of a revival in some corners lately though. I see few people claiming the show was really great exactly, but there's been a shift where it's weaknesses get less talk than its high points. Harry Kim is reaching O'Brien levels of epic janitor status for some people, and Tom Paris' character has been seeing a lot of people coming around on him. So really I guess you have to wait 20 years to really assess if something was good Star Trek or not XD

Though I remain doubtful that Enterprise will ever see much turnaround. Enterprise was just bad. I'd even compare the first episode of SNW to the S1 ENT episode 'The Communicator' as a showcase of just how bad Enterprise was XD Even with Discovery or Picard and my not liking them, I can at least see why other people would. Enterprise in comparison has little to no redeeming qualities in my eyes save for a small handful of episodes/scenes. But maybe in another 5-6 years I'll be wrong again lol

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 20:28:51


   
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UK

Voyager had several problems as I could see it. First it came hot off the heels of DS9 which by the end was powerful story driven content with a long view to story telling. In appeared Voyager with its far more episodic style of storytelling. In many ways feeling like it was going right back to TNG series 1.

I also think that it never quite got it "right" either. There was something "missing" for many. Having heard that many of the geeky elements were shunned from the writing room and such I think perhaps one thing that might have been missing was maybe that chemistry between the actors and the writers and the content. A "spark" that was missing that very much was part of the preceding 3 series. Heck some of DS9's biggest scenes were improvised/adapted by the actors.



Enterprise I think started out really well and it was really going somewhere a lot of people wanted to see. And then they latched onto the wrong thing. Instead of focusing on the setup of so many species and the start of the Federation they went off on a wild "timeline" adventure which wasn't just 2 episdoes but several seasons. I think that threw a lot of the fans expectations and, in the end, a Temporal War is one of those things that only ends one of two ways.

1) Everything that happens is undone and it goes back to "normal" and the timeline continues so nothing "happened"

2) Everything changes and its used as a reboot/rebrand/restart point for the whole experience thereafter.

Both of which can be very unsatisfying to long term fans.




Even if Enterprise itself as a series is solid, I think they just make a very bad call on where to take things and that threw their fanbase. Since then ST has lumbered along. The TNG films have honestly never felt like "films" after First Contact, especially with their desire to constantly keep doing the Picard and Data relationship and Data himself. Which really was done and dusted in the series, done very well in First Contact and thereafter felt forced.



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USA

I definitely think the constant locking of the franchise in the TOS era has been a baffling choice. TOS nostalgia frankly, is already decrepit and old hat. It was decrepit and old hat when Discovery was announced IMO. Picard finally went forward, but then it promptly did nothing with the 'post-DS9' era anyone interested in that time period wanted to see. No follow ups to the Dominion, Bajor, the Cardassians, the state of the quadrant really. Not even a sort of TNG style continuation that picked up where we left off and carried on.

Picard is basically an extremely long Star Trek movie. One of the ones made after First Contact at that. Those movies aren't good. They're flawed unpolished gems at best.

Otherwise we have Prodigy and Lower Decks, which are the two entries in new Star Trek I'd consider to be very good and enjoyable, if only because they're not running on pure nostalgia fuel and are eager to actually go where we haven't been before, and are even capable of doing throw backs in that vein that feel a lot more authentic and endearing than anything in the ever-TOS universe.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 21:06:17


   
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UK

True, the Founders haven't been mentioned at all and we've dealt with the Romulans and nothing with Cardassians or such. It would indeed be one failing of the Picard series. Then again the "front lines" were a long way from the core and Picard has mostly focused around the core and Romulan Neutral Zone. Understandable, but yes it would have been nice to touch base with DS9


I wonder if part of it is that Patrick wanted to work more with his old team not with the DS9 actors and season 1 was needed to generate income/attention enough to get funding together to actually afford and get interest from the other members to bring them back. Nestled in Picard is a bit of the light from TNG. So I'm kind of ok that they didn't touch on the DS9 - but I agree it would have been nice (esp since they've touched on a lot of Voyager stuff).


I do feel like Picard is the only series post DS9 that tries to follow in its style.

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The biggest problem with Prodigy is how slow burn they are with airing more episodes.

 
   
 
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