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 godswildcard wrote:
I’m thinking of playing around with Eldar again, and I’m considering Saim-Hann for fluff reasons, but also because I feel they can make solid shining spears squads.

How are shining spears doing? For those that run them, do you choose squads of 3 or 6? Something in between?

My first comment here after years of reading dakka dakka forum hidden in The webway 😂

Coming back to the topic, I actually use the shining spears as SMU units. They're quite good doing secondary missions like behind enemy lines or fronts, but their utility it's not only being an amazing fast unit, but also their nice damage over heavy infantry. Although they kick on well, it’s not advisable to face them against stronger CC units unless you want to lose your entire unit.

In other words, use them to hunt esay targets holding objectives or halved units. A shining spear can’t resist properly a fight. If they reach the enemy close enough to shoot and fight first, everything will be fine.

Any army must have their support tools, and these amazing axpect warriors do their job.

3 are enough.

 Aberroes wrote:


My first comment here after years of reading dakka dakka forum hidden in The webway 😂

Coming back to the topic, I actually use the shining spears as SMU units. They're quite good doing secondary missions like behind enemy lines or fronts, but their utility it's not only being an amazing fast unit, but also their nice damage over heavy infantry. Although they kick on well, it’s not advisable to face them against stronger CC units unless you want to lose your entire unit.

In other words, use them to hunt esay targets holding objectives or halved units. A shining spear can’t resist properly a fight. If they reach the enemy close enough to shoot and fight first, everything will be fine.

Any army must have their support tools, and these amazing axpect warriors do their job.

3 are enough.

Much appreciated! Thank you! Seeing you say that, I was reminded of the last tournament I went to where lots of people used small squads to hold their backfield objectives, and I think you're right! A squad of 3 shining spears would make quick work of such a target! Thanks!

One thing I would add to @Aberroes post is that should you take a second, or even third unit of Spears, make sure one has the Aspec Relic, it does some MW on the charge which is nice, but it also causes your targe to fight last, which is critical if you charge with 2 units of bikes... Spears hit pretty hard, but REALLY don't like getting hit back and you don't want to get interrupted.

How are people feeling about storm guardians these days? I have some that want to see some action, but their lack of deployment shenanigans makes me worry that they're too squishy without a serpent and probably not hard-hitting enough to warrant a serpent that could be holding banshees or whatever instead.

They are still terrible....

The thing is that you have to look at the potential damage per point. And I'm talking perfect rolls here... With 10 dudes you have... 10 attacks. So 24 points (base) for 3 attacks at STR 3 with 1 AP. Even Tau look at that and go, Meh.

As a bullet sponge the squad works a little better, it's still very, VERY, squishy.

Sorry to say, but you are better off choosing anything else in the codex.

Was anyone taking them for stabbings? O thought their main claim to fame was a spot to drop a few fusion guns in a troop pick. Didn’t they used to have a lower min squad size? Having to take 10 guys plus pay for extras kills their cheep and cheerful vibe.

hi guys, I've been playing elder a lot the last couple of years, but I've never played the avatar. This sunday I want to run him is a have finally gotten my hands on the new model. Also, I've seen a couple of lists do well with him recently.

My problem is, though, that I simply dont understand how to use him. Am I supposed to go will of assyryan/fortune on him and then quicken him onto their back or cental objective and just draw fire? hope to kill something and harass.

I mean, I can do that but are we really sure thats better than just running 280 points worth of cool infantry units to like.. kill stuff and score points.

I might be totally wrong here, but he seems like the sort of piece that might get one charge off and then just die rather easily.

How do you guys use him typically and are you getting good mileage out of him?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
.. i was thinking on running him up the middle and then have a trio of falcons with melee units go meet him to abuse the reroll charges. Maybe a squad of three shining spears too. maybe even karandras.

just good melee and focus on being fast. My initial thought was to run this off off ulthwe as the avatar really needs those auto sixes for saves. But now im actually thinking something insane like expert crafters and vengeful for exploding sixes and rerolls to wound.

In that melee build you sort of build the list on his buffs and try to archive some synergy.

but he could also just act as a sole center piece with a normal good shooting list behind it. here im thinking a more balanced good allround list with a lot of good eldar stuff like DA and psykers and then just have the avatar as an aggressive, relatively durable beat stick in the center.

any opinions?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
hi guys, I've been playing elder a lot the last couple of years, but I've never played the avatar. This sunday I want to run him is a have finally gotten my hands on the new model. Also, I've seen a couple of lists do well with him recently.

My problem is, though, that I simply dont understand how to use him. Am I supposed to go will of assyryan/fortune on him and then quicken him onto their back or cental objective and just draw fire? hope to kill something and harass.

I mean, I can do that but are we really sure thats better than just running 280 points worth of cool infantry units to like.. kill stuff and score points.

I might be totally wrong here, but he seems like the sort of piece that might get one charge off and then just die rather easily.

How do you guys use him typically and are you getting good mileage out of him?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
.. i was thinking on running him up the middle and then have a trio of falcons with melee units go meet him to abuse the reroll charges. Maybe a squad of three shining spears too. maybe even karandras.

just good melee and focus on being fast. My initial thought was to run this off off ulthwe as the avatar really needs those auto sixes for saves. But now im actually thinking something insane like expert crafters and vengeful for exploding sixes and rerolls to wound.

In that melee build you sort of build the list on his buffs and try to archive some synergy.

but he could also just act as a sole center piece with a normal good shooting list behind it. here im thinking a more balanced good allround list with a lot of good eldar stuff like DA and psykers and then just have the avatar as an aggressive, relatively durable beat stick in the center.

any opinions?

Ultwe is good. Especially the 5+ vs mortals on the avatar and the extra retained dice. The unbelievable nice eldrizzle with his psychics like ghostwalk, fortune and will of for objective secured helps with to get your charges in, as a 9 inch charge with reroll is still only 48% success. Maybe start one or two units of wraithblades on the table to webway strike them in as a second wave threat after the 3 falcons.

thanks man!

I thought the avatar didn't get craftworld bonuses?

actually im changing things up a bit. now im going for just 2 falcons, a unit of 3 paragon spears and scorps deployed forward and the avatar. Thats my melee. I spend the falcons worth of points on dire avengers to have a shooting threat that can help hold my own part of the table while the melee guys smash early. Later they can hopefully mop up stuff.

Plan is to go for behind enemy lines. Quicken the avatar up there t1 if I get some saves on strands. He won't do any dam, but he will hopefully draw all their fire. and then go smash. Bahartoth and the aforementioned melee units plus the two falcons should be able to get some rounds of 4 vp for behind. im not sure if its enough, though.

a different plan could be to jnot go for behind and just have avatar tear up the mid field. keep the melee guys back and counter punch. Thats how I usually do it, but now that I have the avatar I felt like doing a different game plan.

Do any of you have experience with throwing the avatar up field early?

It does I would say.
Always screen him out if you don't get first turn.
Well I like having a warlock with horrify close by the avatar or best in falcon. That way I horrify, what can kill him. As friends play Thunderwolf Cavallery and Terminator Blobs. With Horrify on them they fight normally when charging him, so the avatar goes first. That way I don't need to save 2 cp for avatar fight on death and they think - well then I have to shoot him and then he soaks damage like Spongebob Bulletsponge. Another warlock or farseer can warp ritual getting me the VP.
I prefer engage to behind enemy lines.

Edit:
In addition:
Will of makes him obsec, he can heroically intervene, with his fat base blocking the whole center objective, to then fight normally and so first and advancing him and the shooting without -1 because assault weapon and then battle focusing bring's him far into the center.
Second round you can missile him into the enemy lines with ghost walk for hopefully an explosion on a 6 when he dies. If he gets the enemy thundercavallery or terminator blob horrifically cowering behind a wall till the rest of my enemies army shot him dead he brought in his value.
Edit again:
If you can tag some more after his misseling or ghostwalk a warp gated banshe squad to surround the last terminator to make the avatar survive another round it is epic. Because his fat ass blocks a big passage to the center or across him towards your shining spears which rumble in the left or right objective of your enemies backline.

ok, guys, Thanks for the help, FIP.

its down to these two lists and the game is tomorrow morning. So ill play the list that you guys like. heres the first one:




and this one:





Basically the first has a dcannon battery plus a ranger squad and lacks a spears unit with paragon/lance of khaine, an additional viper and some more Dire Avengers. I really like both of them.

Any comments on both lists are welcomed!

I would go for the first one. As you can use black guardians stratagem on dcanons.
I would shuffle fateful divergence on farseer with will of. As you only can get 1 Cp per turn and I guess that is not in addition to secondaries Cp. What secondaries you aim for?

I would get rid of the weeping stone to have more cp. You need those a lot. So many fun stratagems, shooting twice, avatar fight on death and eldritch storm! Very important for mind games. That your enemies doesn't want to make a death star first or second turn.

fatefull is needed. Its simply amazing. You can only get one per battleround, yes, but that is on top of the one you get every turn in Arks.

But yeah, I agree. will of Assyrian is so great. I really missed it to day. giving out obsec and making units not break is so good. Best utility power. I have to get it back in somehow.

Weeping stone is a personal favorite. I agree its a fringe pick. not auto at all. but I just LOVE rolling seven dice for strands, reolling 2 and keeping 5. I normally go for sunstorm, but i figured with baharoth in the mix then maybe I would be ok without it.

I went for the second list, actually. The matchup was vs a very infantry heavy drukhari list. I ended up going for wrath of khaine, psychic ritual and RBD.

I was super torn on whether to go for psychic int or ritual but ended up going for the latter. My plan was to use the foot warlock to pop back and forth to the center with the extra cast strat and quicken. This missed miserably, though, as the action got denied (didn't get my psychic strand t1) by some Drukhari that caused perils. luckily my warlock survived. Then on second turn he I got the action through but missed the quicken roll. This meant he got charged and killed. I racked up another rituals action but at great costs. He kept denying me or I didn't have a psyker free to go for it. It was a disaster : )

wrath is always super sketchy but this time I maxed it out which was great.

I got 3 RBDs but only because I put a squad of avengers into reserves and could then get the third action with them late in the game. The drukhari player had soooo many units so it was rather hard to score that secondary on his turf.

i had other problems too. The avatars t8 was neutered by poison weapons and I couldn't get my fortune off t 1, so those 10 trueborn kabalites hitting on 2s wounding on 4s plus all the dark lances made me play him a bit more defensively. He also got moved blocked horribly by some reavers. He did eventully reach the center, though, and made a difference. My opponent couldn't decide how to approach him as he knew he would punish whatever he went at him even through fight first with the fight on death strat.

My 2 falcons with 12 banshees were just amazing. crystal clear MVPs. I couldn't go to nomans land t1 and alfa strike with ghost walk because the mission didn't allow it (I dont remember the name) but they landed in my DZ and picked off a raider with 10 true born in it. that meant that pirate ship couldn't fly around and shoot out of the open top all game and harass my guys. they are amazing at that especially into my t3, so that was really good. also, with the threat of popping out 2x6 banshees out with 3 inches that advance and charge and have ghost walk available meant the falcons/banshees threat range covered the center objective which is key in this mission. so yeah, MVPs for sure.

The list is really good. everything fits very well together, although as FIP suggests, the psychic power suite could be fine tuned. I had plenty of CP all game and had enough models to be able to screen my backfield decently. As the mission wouldn't allow me to forward deploy, the scorpions helped out in the back eastern part of the board.

I liked how the build can actually go for the super agressive opening of 2x falcon drops, quicken avatar to opponents back field, forward deployed scorpion charge. You have CP for phantasm, if deployment turns sour. I didn't go for that here, as I felt it was a bit too dangerous to just go hard into 100 drukhari melee specialists, but it might have worked.

instead I chose a more balanced and patient playstyle focusing on him coming towards me while scoring ritual, and wrath of khaine (even though ritual didn't go well). In retrospect RDB was not right for me. I dont know what I should have taken istead, though. The list could play engage but in this game I wouldn't have gotten a lot out of it as I had to dominate the center. banners wouldn't have worked either as I wouldn't have been able to get infantry out to no mans land to put them up or defend them. I dont have rangers for scout the enemy, so yeah, its hard.

Another weakness is anti tank. I actually only have the avatar and 4 pulse shots into t7+ but today it was enough. My pulseshots were so good and I guess the list can take out two redemptors a turn if I REALLY need to. With ghost walk and a strands die on charges the avatar has a super big threat range and 4 pulse shots can usually take out one hard target. The avatar is easy to movelock, though, so he is not the most reliable antitank weapon. all in all, I dont know how I would fare into a dreadnaught/mech heavy list.

we didn't score up the last turn, but I would say I won 80-60ish. He went forst and committed to three objectives in nomans land. I could knock him off and Got a primary lead that I held all game. But he was scoring well on secondaries and was a threat all game.

Super cool game.

Glad you had a very nice game, thanks for the report.
Well I saw a list going hot with engage and just dropping 2 falcons in the enemies corners. So that he shot the enemy melee in the back, while the enemy shooting couldn't see them. so the enemy could think about sending something back there to crush it.
Another was just putting 3 ranger squads in reserve (free in arks) and just dropped one in each turn to score scout the enemy for at least 8 points per match, but nearly reliable 12.
I think engage is the way or banners are fun ways for you to score points in addition. Because dire avengers can do free actions, so banner up. Then he has to come to your bannered objectives for your perfect countercharge.

yeah, thats all true.

thing is that because of the mission, my falcons couldn't pop into no mans land t1. so I had to use them completely differently.

while going for the corners is amazing, most opponents will screen that out at least the first 2 turns. And with this list I usually need the pulselaser shots early. That said, I think I should have taken engage. That trick you mention with scout and rangers in reserve is a staple. love that. Works decently with RBD too. Alas, with this list I dont run rangers at all and that makes it too sketchy off of Dirt avengers. Thats why I opted for RBD and got such meager results

i am replaying the matchup to morrow. same boards, same mission. Very nice way to studying develop a list, I think. Its the first Time we try that.

I honestly dont get all the fuss about psychic secondaries. even with the magic hat its just so sketchy. Every one being able to effin deny the thing is sooo rough! I know its possible to get auto 8 with ulthwe and a strand die and with the hat its a 2plus for being undeniable. but still. I feel often you want the extra spell on a dude who can actually use it sometimes. I Feel its a lot of resources into that secondary being a certainty.

How did the rematch go? Did you change anything to the list?

Hi Fip,

yeah, I changed one thing. Im always debating between executor or will of Assyrian if I only run 2 farseers. in the first match I ran will and it was really good. It helped my always dominating the center. But for this second matchup I went for Executor and it was just bonkers. Stupid almost. I just deleted 2d3 of his best units every turn. Incubi, buffed out witches, kabalites. Whatever.

Anyways, the mission is about holding the center. you get 2 vp for holding that ever turn on the progressive and another point if you remove an enemy unit from the center as well. adittionally you can't forward deploy, deep strike og pregame move into no mans land t1.

I went for rbd again even though it was not too good last time (I could have gone for engage but I wanted to make the actions work), wrath of khaine and opted to go for ritual once more too. this time I wanted to focus on getting a strands die for that every turn. Also, with executor being so potent vs his one w models I figured he would have to try to deny that every now and then so my ritual would be able to go through.

my plan was basically the same: go to the center with buffed avatar and wait for his waves and just take them out as we went along with spears and banshees. if anything pushed further, my avengers would try to deal with them

the vipers and maybe spears would go tag objectives t1 if I got it so I could lure him out.

i dit get first turn and landed both the falcons in the center of my backfield. that way they threatened the center with 12 banshees and managed to pick out a raider early with the pulse lasers.

The first two turns he played very. controlled and just committed enough guys to pick me off the objectives. He took the center too, but I managed to take it back the next turn. I scored 4-4 on my primaries while he did 4-8. but I was ahead due to 4-4 on wrath and two rituals going through.

After that first push to the center he just couldn't get through. He did a valiant last recapture attempt with drazar and 20 or so witches. vs 6 banshees (who had cleared the last attempt) and avatar. But he just crapped out right there so hard and only killed one banshee. It was crazy. then his center collapsed for good-

Executor into the center brawl every turn was so brutal. He just couldn't keep it going. I ran 21 dire avengers and they were simply amazing. They always are but this time was something else. they did everything. The big 10 man blob was holding confrence meetings with my farseers in the back guarding for deepstrikes with forewarned. they could also push forward and then shoot at something that went through if needed. it only came up once, and then I even rolled a lucky 6 with battle focus to get them back behind obscuring. the 5man screened the back field and did RBD. alter they pushed for the left objective in no mans land and took it. The last 6 man unit was in reserves and popped in t3 to do action and kill a character. next turn they killed yet another character holding the back objective. it was just crazy. not one single dire avenger died as my opponent was too busy with "real" threats.

In the end I pushed for his back field with a falcon and the 6 last banshees. it went ok but his grotesques was a difficult target for them. In the very end the avatar swooped in from the other side and finished them. I had him tabled by the end of t4 with only I raider left.

That said, my opponent did well. he kept my from scoring well on primaries the first 2 turns and did ok on behind enemy lines. The dire avengers back there killed every thing off the next turn, though, so it was always just like 3 jet bikes down, score, die. so I could live with that. He also came down with the scourges and tried to take the right flank with those and a raider with troops in it teleporting in with the strat. From t4 I scored 12 on primaries, though.

i won be a pretty huge margin. 12 on wrath, 12 on RBD, and 8 or 12 on ritual. dont remember. Then 32 on primary and 12ish on the progressive. maybe 90-40 or something. It was close until it wasn't.

The biggest thing, except for the avengers who had a perfect game, was executor. It honestly felt a bit silly into drukhari.

I am glad you had a very nice game again. How would you guess couldn't he have won? How could he throw you off your gameplay?

The Avatar does not get Craftworld traits. He gets the keyword, but not the effects of the trait.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The Avatar does not get Craftworld traits. He gets the keyword, but not the effects of the trait.

I know. thats how I play him. Sadly. hed be amazing with the reroll from ulthwe : )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fip wrote:
I am glad you had a very nice game again. How would you guess couldn't he have won? How could he throw you off your gameplay?

yeah, he kinda did throw me off in the beginning. I guess if he had played around me more he could maybe have won. if he had used his fight first better, that would have been good too, but it was hard for him as my banshees were inside the falcons most of the game. The avatar fights on death and well.. it was just difficult for him to get the most out of his melee and I made sure to kill his shooting early.

Executor made it very hard for him. I ran six characters so he went for the kill characters drukhari secondary. made sense, but he didn't kill a single one which was super weird. he just couldn't get to them in a meaningful way. he came in waves and that is the way to do it with drukhari normally.. but maybe if he had stormed my lines somehow all at once, then maybe he could have overwhelmed me? I dont know.

Some Eldar data sheets are floating around thanks to a game streaming.

Striking Scorpions lost AP on the chainsword. Mandiblasters is just a generic gain devastating wounds in melee vs non-vehicles / monsters.

Serpent Shield on storm guardians gives a 5+ Invul, not just vs shooting. Power sword looks a bit better.

Dire Avengers look decent, losing 1 AP on the shuricat but gaining lethal hits. OC1 though, that hurts a lot.

Wave serpent chassis is T9. I'm wondering if there is a typo on the TL Starcannons, since it's the only weapon that got double shots still.

Vypers are T6, can turn off Cover after shooting a unit. Actually kinda neat.

Support weapon platforms have a suppress ability after shooting someone with a bombardment. Pretty neat.

Warp Spiders are looking very rough.

Disappointingly, for those of us who were hoping Exarchs would be independent characters, unfortunately they are featured on the data sheet at 2 Wounds.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Disappointingly, for those of us who were hoping Exarchs would be independent characters, unfortunately they are featured on the data sheet at 2 Wounds.

I'm not sure anyone could have realistically expected otherwise.
With Characters leading units now, and many losing a wound or 2 on thier base profile, it would not have made any sense for Exarchs to become separate datasheet Characters.

Although with Phoenix Lords being T3 now for...reasons, and being locked to only be able to join their respective Aspect unit, in a way that pretty much grants your wish. PLs are now glorified Exarchs as independent characters.

-

Looks like exarch still keep gear options. Would there be any reason to give the the standard gear of the squad? Not that there ever was much of a reason, but it was an option. With 10th, it’s not like they even get an extra attack with it.

 Nevelon wrote:
Looks like exarch still keep gear options. Would there be any reason to give the the standard gear of the squad? Not that there ever was much of a reason, but it was an option. With 10th, it’s not like they even get an extra attack with it.

Even in 9th and editions prior, giving your Exarchs the special gear was generally preferable. Not just for game advantage, but for theme/lore/flavor.
Not having additional attacks if using the standard squad gear just resolidifies that. I actually like that

-

 Galef wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Disappointingly, for those of us who were hoping Exarchs would be independent characters, unfortunately they are featured on the data sheet at 2 Wounds.

I'm not sure anyone could have realistically expected otherwise.
With Characters leading units now, and many losing a wound or 2 on thier base profile, it would not have made any sense for Exarchs to become separate datasheet Characters.

Although with Phoenix Lords being T3 now for...reasons, and being locked to only be able to join their respective Aspect unit, in a way that pretty much grants your wish. PLs are now glorified Exarchs as independent characters.

-

The exarchs were considerably upgraded in 9th so people hoped would continue in 10th where they would break and serve as a Leader. Lord knows there are enough Primaris Lieutenants to set a precedent. I think it would have an interesting system to see Exarchs as independent characters. Instead we get remarkably weaker Phoenix Lords via the monkey paw.

Wowsa eldar tactics are starting to look like show up and win. I don't play knife ears but congrats on the great rules and strong data sheets.

 Nevelon wrote:
Looks like exarch still keep gear options. Would there be any reason to give the the standard gear of the squad? Not that there ever was much of a reason, but it was an option. With 10th, it’s not like they even get an extra attack with it.

I think the only times I ever gave exarchs the default gear were:
* Reaper exarch in 8th/9th sometimes got to keep the reaper launcher. If I'm pointing him at tanks or meq bodies, I preferred it over the AML . Exarch powers were a factor here.
* Shadow Spectre exarch weapons were kind of a trap in 9th. You were better off using the default gun.
* Sometimes I run my hawk exarchs with default gear because that's a lot of dice to roll, and I don't want to have to remember to do some of the shots separately.

But generally, the exarchs have at least one weapon that's basically just a better version of their default gear. So unless points are tight, I'm probably taking the upgrade.

I don't really hate things being that way. If an exarch can't run around and solo the enemy, at least they can be notably more powerful than their squadmates.

Unrelated: I keep hearing that spiders look bad in the new edition. What specifically makes them unappealing?

Their guns got massively nerfed down to S4 AP 0. Flicker Jump is no longer anti-charge, instead it's just does a super move but cannot charge afterwards.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Their guns got massively nerfed down to S4 AP 0. Flicker Jump is no longer anti-charge, instead it's just does a super move but cannot charge afterwards.

Those aren’t inherently nerfs. 10th is a different game. D6 shots with the ability to do mortal wounds isn’t nothing. Combine that with cover no longer breaking a 3+ save, and they are still potentially very effective. The main question is going to be there cost. If pointed properly, they could be quite viable.

Are you really trying to argue that a nerf from S6 to S4 is not a nerf because it's a new edition?