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It you were to speculate on the meta with new vehicle rules, how would you load out the Stormraven for Codex: SMs?

Pretty much the same as before. MM in the nose, AsC or LCs up top. A lot depends on what you are hunting with it and what the rest of your list looks like.

I think the TLLC has more value over the TLAC now due to AP2 being more valuable.

 minigun762 wrote:
I think the TLLC has more value over the TLAC now due to AP2 being more valuable.

Exactly what I've been thinking. The Stormraven as a dedicated AA platform is very tempting, especially as a Blood Angels player with those S8 ap1 missiles....

The problem is that hurricane bolters are pretty much useless on this set up.

D

evildrcheese wrote:
The problem is that hurricane bolters are pretty much useless on this set up.

However, won't Machine Spirit allow you essentially to split fire?

 thunderingjove wrote:

evildrcheese wrote:
The problem is that hurricane bolters are pretty much useless on this set up.

However, won't Machine Spirit allow you essentially to split fire?

one of the sponsons; ther other would be forced to fire at the same targets the MM and TLLC are shooting at.

I think it's better to use SR to hunt vehicles and Fire Raptor to deal with infantry

Does PotMS allow you to fire at ground targets at full bs even if you declared Skyfire shooting in your shooting phase for your other weapons. If not then they're still pretty useless on a dedicated AA platform.

You're right though if you're targeting grounds vehicles, you can still use one set of hurricane bolters to target infantry.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
Does PotMS allow you to fire at ground targets at full bs even if you declared Skyfire shooting in your shooting phase for your other weapons. If not then they're still pretty useless on a dedicated AA platform.

No. If you use skyfire it applies to all guns.

So yeah, even with PotMS hurricane bolters are basically pointless.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
So yeah, even with PotMS hurricane bolters are basically pointless.

D

That's my thought, at least on Ravens. Good on Crusaders but they are an anti infantry unit with limited tank killing.
Raven is a best as a tank busting gunship.

Although if you wanted dedicated Anti-infantry, you could take the assault cannon and HB with hurricane bolters, but then the missiles are a bit of a waste...

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
Although if you wanted dedicated Anti-infantry, you could take the assault cannon and HB with hurricane bolters, but then the missiles are a bit of a waste...

D

Or for the same cost, take a pair of Talons. I think that's the better buy personally.

What would be nice is a variant of the Raven that trades the troop capacity for extra firepower.

 minigun762 wrote:

 evildrcheese wrote:
Although if you wanted dedicated Anti-infantry, you could take the assault cannon and HB with hurricane bolters, but then the missiles are a bit of a waste...

D

Or for the same cost, take a pair of Talons. I think that's the better buy personally.

What would be nice is a variant of the Raven that trades the troop capacity for extra firepower.

FW Fire Raptor is a pure gunboat for marines. More anti infantry then AV, but lots of dakka.

I dont see why you all are going with the no-hurricane bolter options. While yes it is a good and solid choice, it seems with the way the thread has progressed that everyone is just taking the TLLC as an uncontested auto take. And yes, with that and MM having a single hurricane bolter shoot a few infantry is hardly worth the 30 points. However, that is not how I am looking at the storm raven. Here is what I ran last edition and what I will still run for 7th for reasons I will divulge shortly: Storm Raven TLAC, MM Hurricane bolters. Why is this a great alternative? The reason becomes simple with a few considerations that I will show in the comparison:

A. Storm Raven, TLLC MM, Optional Hurricane bolters.
- 48" Lascannon hit
- 24" AP1 (12" Melta)
-24" single hurricane bolter with POTMS
-Main target is AV, us AP2 and A1. Good choice.
-Second target is infantry who get 3/6 bolter shots, huge waste.
Conclusion: The hurricane bolter is wasted since the POTMS firepower wont dent any unit even with consistent firepower, you then no longer even try to have it in range of infantry (becoming even more of a waste) and just use the TLLC and MM, so no reason to take the hurricane bolters.

B. Storm Raven, TLAC, MM, Hurricane bolters
-24" Assault Cannon
-24" AP1 (12" Melta)
-24" Hurricane bolters

Now, how is that supposed to be a good option? Well, as you can see, you have a range coherency, (ie. Unlike "SR A" which is wasting the 48" of the TLLC because that target has to be 12" for the MM) which means the storm raven will be playing the role that it has no reason not to play, the Flying MM rush. I hear you though, "cool, traded the TLLC for a TLAC, sounds great, but you are still just stuck with shooting a couple rounds at a unit and doing nothing." There is the mistake, you POTMS the MM, and fire the TLAC and Hurricane bolters at anything 36" close the the vehicle you are MM'ing. So you are trading 1 TLLC shot at a vehicle for 12 Bolter shots and 4 Str6 rending shots at non AV. Decent trade, so you may be starting to see why it is a valid option. Here is yet another reason: 7th edition. By which I mean this beast is the baddest-ass flying scoring mother this side of the warp. So late game your opponent has the minimum-cost unit that arrived from reserves capping that objective at the corner of the board no where near anything yours or his that isnt busy capping something. Enter late game TLAC and Hurricane bolters, and hopefully with a turn or two of planning they are already weakened, finishing them of and making a point difference of 2. Something that the TLLC MM can never hope to achieve, especially if you run out of AV targets to shoot and you end up with a 200 point brick that you roll two anything but 's and wasting the potential firepower.

So worst case scenario it wastes 30 points over the LC MM counterpart but nothing else because you already had to be 12" for the MM to do damage. Best case, you have the option of trading a single LC shot at the AV you just melta'd anyway for 4 str6 rending shots and 12 bolter shots which can do serious damage over a couple turns (and of course you could say screw-it with the HCB and just str6 rending a vehicle that you must Melta'd).

I would never leave home without my TLAC, MM, Hurricane Bolter Storm Raven. Its the swiss army knife of the best kind: One that not only has the gentle worst-case scenario of doing just as good as its counterpart, and not only can do significantly more, but best of all, its a unit that can handle anything, be anywhere at anytime, and is hard as to kill (especially if you are the devil like I am and run Iron Hands with a MOTF as an HQ).

I see the value of your loadout as a multi purpose flyer.
I just don't think there is as much value in a multi purpose flyer as one dedicated to killing hard targets. SM has plenty of very solid anti infantry firepower but the first loadout you mentioned excels at killing other heavy flyers, MCs, heavy armor and heavy infantry which are all high value targets.

Now if your army is ripe with grav weapons and the AA tanks, then this loadout is less valuable and you may need that boost to infantry killing.

Never leave home without Twin-assault cannons, twin-heavy bolters, two hurricane bolters and psi-ammo.

4 S7 rending, 3 S6 and 6-12 S5 is awesome. All of it twin-linked.
And then... mind strikes.

-Matt

Nevelon wrote:FW Fire Raptor is a pure gunboat for marines. More anti infantry then AV, but lots of dakka.

Just read up on that in IA 2 2nd ed., and it's not so impressive for the price.

 minigun762 wrote:
I see the value of your loadout as a multi purpose flyer.
I just don't think there is as much value in a multi purpose flyer as one dedicated to killing hard targets. SM has plenty of very solid anti infantry firepower but the first loadout you mentioned excels at killing other heavy flyers, MCs, heavy armor and heavy infantry which are all high value targets.

Now if your army is ripe with grav weapons and the AA tanks, then this loadout is less valuable and you may need that boost to infantry killing.

I know something is being seen by everyone else that I am not seeing, I've taken a hiatus from the opinions and observations of others while I took time to read, digest, and mold my tactics to 7th in hopes of not catching the 1st-over zerg rush to the same conclusion the hive-mind did of a new addition. So bare with me

It was my general understanding that on every armor value besides 13, TLAC was better than TLLC. With the new AP rules it seems that this may have shifted in the TLLC's favor. However, it still seems like a very minute percentage. So while yes you can say that the dedicated one is better, it is only better slightly. Keep in mind you gain no range advantage unless you aren't using your MM for some reason, and the "turret" the Storm Raven has is very limited and may as well just draw LOS from the MM. So for arguments sake lets give the TLLC/non HCB raven a 95/100 for anti AV OR a 20/100 for anti save. It would be something comparable to say the TLAC/HCB raven has a 92/100 for anti AV OR a 85/100 anti save WHILE ALSO HAVING the ability to split fire POTMS MM 60/100 80/100.

So while you would be correct in saying the dedicated one is technically better at what you want it to do, I would find it hard to believe that a person would ever chose to gain such a marginal benefit over the opportunity of having nearly the same capability, plus so much more. That being said, 30 points means different things to different people.

That is my 6th edition view remolded in what I get from my readings of 7th. I am still not confident enough with my grasp of 7th and how the rules flow with another in order to say one way or another if everything I just said has a huge gaping fault that I am not seeing.

Think of it as a rough draft, would appreciate if people hammer it out


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Never leave home without Twin-assault cannons, twin-heavy bolters, two hurricane bolters and psi-ammo.

4 S7 rending, 3 S6 and 6-12 S5 is awesome. All of it twin-linked.
And then... mind strikes.

-Matt

We get it Matt Ward, grey knights are back and we should all feel bad about what we said about you and yes, I have been staring at grey paint longer than I have ever done since GK 5th dropped, are you happy? ARE YOU HAPPY?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Never leave home without Twin-assault cannons, twin-heavy bolters, two hurricane bolters and psi-ammo.

4 S7 rending, 3 S6 and 6-12 S5 is awesome. All of it twin-linked.
And then... mind strikes.

-Matt

Meh on the heavy bolter, melta is still better on the GK raven