Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is what I'd like to see:

WS/BS/S/T/W/I/A/Ld/Sv
7/5/4/4/3/6/3/10/2+

UNIT TYPE: Infantry (Character)

WARGEAR: Master-Crafted bolt pistol, frag grenades, krak grenades

SPECIAL RULES: Chapter Tactics (Black Templars), Fearless, Independent Character

Slayer of Champions: The Emperor's Champion must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible. If you have several models with a special rule with this effect, the Emperor's Champion must issue or accept the challenge. When fighting in a combat, the Emperor's Champion must choose a stance -- either Smite the Unclean or Slay the Heretic -- at the start of the Fight Sub-phase but after any challenges have been declared. The chosen stance lasts until the end of that combat.

If he chooses Smite the Unclean, the Emperor's Champion has +2 Strength and his Black Sword gains the Two-handed special rule, additionally, when in a challenge, any roll to wound of 6 causes Instant Death.

If he chooses Slay the Heretic, the Emperor's Champion gains the Rampage special rule.

CHAPTER RELICS:

Armour of Faith: The Armour of Faith confers a 2+ Armour Save, a 4+ invulnerable save and the Eternal Warrior special rule

Black Sword:

Range: --
S: User
AP: 2
Type: Melee, Master-crafted, digital weapons


UNIT COMPOSITION: 1 (Unique) UNIT COST: 200 Points

The reasoning:

I see the EC as what he's meant to be: a CC badass who's decked out with the best gear the chapter armoury has in store. So I've adjusted his stats to put him on par with a captain but with a bump in WS and Init to represent his CC specialty (for cross-reference, Pellas Mir'san from FW has the WS7 and some CC special rules at 150pts).

I kept the rule about challenges because that's what the EC is about: a master dueler (see Sigismund fluff), but I've changed the stances so that the EC can pick a "challenge mode" with Smite the Unclean or a "horde-blender mode" with Slay the Heretic.
I was gonna give the Instant Death USR to Smite the Unclean but thought that was too powerful, fights against Daemon Princes and other CC beasts should last a bit so I gave it +2S instead and Instant Death only on rolls to wound of 6s, which combined with the Rending USR granted to Templars in challenges gives him the chance to hurt high Toughness characters but not non-character MCs. I also wanted to reduce the attacks in that mode to represent the EC focusing on strength instead of amount of attacks.

The Slay the Heretic mode, is the opposite, where the focus is on the EC turning into a whirlwind of attacks to dispatch larger blobs (potential for 8A on the charge), this time without any S boost to even things out.

In terms of gear, I kept the 2+/4++ and AP2 sword to represent the relics the EC is wearing but gave him EW to allow him to survive hits from smashing MCs and PF/TH to the face; I feel that the given saves and wounds are fair when fighting a comparative SETH CM and gives him the staying power to fight larger, multiple wound models (DPs, Wraithknights, Riptides, etc...)

Finally, I put his points at 200: that's the most expensive captain-equivalent behind Lysander (who still has a decent chance of hammering him to death thanks to his better survivability), on par with Vulkan (who while he can hold his own in CC, I feel the EC should be able to punch him in the face, but Vulkan buffs his army a lot more), and 10 points over Sicarius (who again has decent CC stats but is more of an army-buffer). Funny enough, he's more expensive than both Grimaldus and Hellbrecht, but I'm okay with that since both of them are junk in CC and are more army-buffers as well. Uber-models like Calgar or a SETH CM or a IH smash-master still have better survivability via more wounds and punch more in CC thanks to higher stock attacks. He also doesn't have access to command squads or honour guard squads (which could both turn him into a mini deathstar), so one would have to spend the extra points on another HQ to create a true deathstar. So all-in-all I think it's a pretty fair model. Obviously this would be for friendly games only.

What do my fellow Templars think? Would you guys be okay facing that? Would you change certain things rules or point cost? I'm all ears, any feedback is much appreciated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After re-reading myself, I'm thinking of adjusting the Smite the Unclean mode to: +2S, 2-handed, 6s to wound will cause instant-death (challenges only). And bump him up to an even 200pts. I think it tones down the original S8 hits to something more reasonable, follows the original rules a bit more and puts him on par with other EW characters. I've updated the post to reflect this.

I like the idea but I'd tone his base stats down. He's an inspired initiate in terrific gear. Knock WS, BS and wounds down one each and cut 25-30 points off. Trade digital weapons on the black sword for shred.

Keep in mind that a Captain with burning blade and artificer armor will be 165 points so you don't want something much more than that.

Overall he seems pretty good, like minigun said base him off of a captain with artificer and burning blade and you wont go far wrong.

lose the digital weapons, doesn't fit and shred would be too powerful - he needs to have an element he's slightly week at and his is wounding, he has loads of attacks at high init/ws with AP:2 re-rolling to wound pushes him over the top.

Also he eternal warrior is a buff too far - everyone want their homebrew character to survive and throws on EW, its increadably rare in the game now and with the nerf to smash is far less necessary. People will be far happier playing against him if he doesn't have it even if it would be no use against their army.
With these changes 175-185pts would be fair.

Sorry, but another character with mega stats/ an abundance of rules optimised for killing things like characters is just boring and a bit lame, while also being in direct contradiction of the fluff; see Minigun's post.

There's a boundary between "awesome when he does well" and "high expectations, will probably fail to meet cost" where your guy falls into the latter category. You know why the old EC rocked to me? Because he had potential to do great, had awesome fluff as just a regular marine pushed on by power of faith, yet wasn't expensive and you didn't have high expectations.

So that one time in 5th edition my EC killed a wounded Calgar in single combat before he struck ? Awesome. That one time my Veteran IG Sergeant, worth a measly sum of 7 points, armed with a shotgun, sniped out a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant? Awesome. Sure as hell didn't expect either.

When the 200 point character kills something large or intimidating? Meh, he's supposed to do that. Fail to do so? What a waste of points and time. I say, make him 120-135~ points, give him instant death on a 5+, 3-4 attacks total in combat, I5 and S6 AP2 at initiative, with 2+/4++, 2 wounds. No absurd WS/BS.

That way, he actually has odds of failure. I struggle to find a 200pt, point and click melee killing machine inventive or fun to use.

Don't get me wrong, by the way, the current EC sucks. A bit too weak and too expensive.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
and the Eternal Warrior special rule

Nope. You cant give every special character that rule.

Seems better to give him PE or suto(wuto) PE in CC rather than two free rerolls to hit.

Why BS 5 seems random.

Edit:

Please avoid EW :/

remove digital weapons, give him PE: Characters.

All good feedback, I shall keep working on it. So overall idea is sub-150 bang-for-your-buck.

I'll come up with something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess a better question might be: are you guys happy with the current incarnation of the EC?

The current incarnation of the EC is far too expensive/ineffective to ever consider taking unless playing a purely fluff game.

Biggest issues with the current version is he's expensive for what he is and he doesn't offer vows that are army wide.
Altering either would make him a better buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Biggest issues with the current version is he's expensive for what he is and he doesn't offer vows that are army wide.
Altering either would make him a better buy.

I like it. A lot! Would love to see this guy goe toe to toe with an Avatar of Khaine.

I do think though that 3 Wounds and EW are a bit too much.

If you read the fluff, he is a normal marine who gets blessed on the eve of battle by visions rather than being chapter-master material, so I think 2 Wounds + EW should be fine enough. Especially considering the fact that WS7, I6 and a S6 sword that re-rolls all failed hits in challenges thanks to BT CT should already give enough of a survival boost to him through offense.

The problem with your challenge stances is that you have changed it to battle stances - 99.99% players will select horde mode when charging the EC into blobs, and the slayer mode when issuing an actual challenge against an enemy IC.

Fluffwise, the EC's focus should be a challenge specialist, not a take-all-comers tactically flexible killing machine

The EC is not "a CC badass." He is a Marine who saw a vision of the Emperor and was given relics for his role. They may not be the best gear the Chapter can provide but they are first and foremost symbolic. Making him a CC badass for no reason is not kosher.

Have you seen sigismund? Cos he is the true emps champion and is slightly better than this.

Btw eternal warrior is fine for this guy, I'm surprised the normal one doesn't have it.

 Formosa wrote:
Have you seen sigismund? Cos he is the true emps champion and is slightly better than this.

Btw eternal warrior is fine for this guy, I'm surprised the normal one doesn't have it.

Adding Eternal Warrior is so unoriginal.

He's a regular dude in good armour. He's not a suddenly special snowflake with abilities in terms of being able to avoid certain death from weapons like power fists. Unfortunately, Matt Ward already gave a last ditch sacrifice super-attack to the GK Brotherhood Champion, so that's out. This means in order for him to behave in the role of a decent Champion he needs to kill the target before he is killed.

That's why he should have a decent chance of causing instant death at AP2 and initiative, not just on 6's as that's too unreliable to justify his cost. Vows should return as purchasable upgrades as well.

Who cares if it's original, it's a good mechanic to use, and it's not special snokflake either, it's a pre existing character that in all right should have eternal warrior.

Theres a few who should have it but don't, lucius, kharn, belial, and a few that really shouldn't such as lysander, calgar and any model with shield eternal, oh and sammael

 Formosa wrote:
Who cares if it's original, it's a good mechanic to use, and it's not special snokflake either, it's a pre existing character that in all right should have eternal warrior.

Theres a few who should have it but don't, lucius, kharn, belial, and a few that really shouldn't such as lysander, calgar and any model with shield eternal, oh and sammael

Wait, why should Belial have it but not Lysander?

On-topic, an idea to avoid Eternal Warrior might be to make him the loyalist equivalent of a Juggerlord; eleventy-five attacks, high strength, AP2, but if he fails to kill his target he'd be smoked.

No where in lysanders fluff does it show him able to survive injuries that would kill a normal marine, belial however has such fluff and doesn't get ew, it's quite odd I think.

Is the new EC something only BT can take now?

Yep

 Formosa wrote:
No where in lysanders fluff does it show him able to survive injuries that would kill a normal marine, belial however has such fluff and doesn't get ew, it's quite odd I think.

Excuse me? Now I'm not even an Imperial Fists fanboy at all but that's plainly untrue

Before Lysander was even a Space Marine he was famous for surviving an Ork Waaagh! and the Quesarch Heresy, and whilst a 1st Company Captain him and several of his Marines were captured and tortured by the Iron Warriors for a considerable amount of time, which requires quite a large amount of endurance, and then he escaped with no weapons or armour. He was then tested by the chapter's offices of apothecaries, chaplains and librarians and survived that too.

After that, he destroyed the world he was tortured on and later defeated the Warsmith who took him prisoner.

Belial got his ass wiped by Ghazghkull, is a self-depressive "coulda done it better" sort of guy who got promoted to his position for bravery. His name comes from a Hebrew Idiom "Son of Belial", meaning to be a worthless man.

Relating to topic ; eternal warrior should stop getting handed out like candy to make characters decent, it should apply to characters who are specifically renowned for being hard to kill, and since the EC is a generic warrior who is renowned for having the best equipment that's not really applicable to him.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Relating to topic ; eternal warrior should stop getting handed out like candy to make characters decent, it should apply to characters who are specifically renowned for being hard to kill, and since the EC is a generic warrior who is renowned for having the best equipment that's not really applicable to him.

He's mostly renowned for being guided by the Emperor Himself in combat.

There's also precedence for him being WS7; the old one was WS6 when Chapter Master equivalents were WS5.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No where in lysanders fluff does it show him able to survive injuries that would kill a normal marine, belial however has such fluff and doesn't get ew, it's quite odd I think.

Excuse me? Now I'm not even an Imperial Fists fanboy at all but that's plainly untrue

Before Lysander was even a Space Marine he was famous for surviving an Ork Waaagh! and the Quesarch Heresy, and whilst a 1st Company Captain him and several of his Marines were captured and tortured by the Iron Warriors for a considerable amount of time, which requires quite a large amount of endurance, and then he escaped with no weapons or armour. He was then tested by the chapter's offices of apothecaries, chaplains and librarians and survived that too.

After that, he destroyed the world he was tortured on and later defeated the Warsmith who took him prisoner.

Belial got his ass wiped by Ghazghkull, is a self-depressive "coulda done it better" sort of guy who got promoted to his position for bravery. His name comes from a Hebrew Idiom "Son of Belial", meaning to be a worthless man.

Relating to topic ; eternal warrior should stop getting handed out like candy to make characters decent, it should apply to characters who are specifically renowned for being hard to kill, and since the EC is a generic warrior who is renowned for having the best equipment that's not really applicable to him.

And none of that is particularly hard for a normal fluff marine, tortured.. Yawn, happens all the time and is not enough to warrant ew.
Survived a waagh, again that's normal for marines, it's where he got his bolter drill from though so that's ok.
Survived the attentions if his chapters Libys and chaplains, again run of the mill.

Belial got cut in HALF by ghazghull and lived, that's worthy of eternal warrior, not a bit of torture, doing run of the mill marine stuff and then getting a good look over by the chapters higher ups, lysanders ew has no basis in fluff, it's a game mechanic they wanted to use and nothing more.

Ether Case is irrelevant to the EC.

has he done ANYTHING to warrant being able to take a powerfist to the groin?

Yeah I guess your right, like I said before its just something I always expected him to have for some reason, what about dropping its wounds back to 2 and eternal warrior?

Personally still hate handing out EW for nearly ANY reason.

Id say keep his wounds and give him a 3++ in CC. (as the empara protects)

Emperor's Champion Ulricus, alongside High Marshal Ludoldus and Canoness Jasmine, fought and defeated a Greater Daemon of Khorne in the Battle of Fire and Blood. Seeing as they all lived through the volcano they were fighing in erupting, that's something.

And if we're being literal, Sigismund was the first Emperor's Champion, and he's pretty much a textbook example of who should have Eternal Warrior (as is Ludoldus, but that's a different story).

Eternal Warrior is, frankly, a requirement for any true CC Badass. (Or T6.) You are garunteed to see craploads of S8 and S10 in Close Combat, and without EW then Lysander is just as vulnerable as an Assault Terminator.
Without EW, 200+ point Characters who are supposed to be gods of Close Combat will consistently die against Ork Nobz, Space Marine Captains, and Terminators. If they're T5 (For SM this means on a Bike,) then the cases of weapons which ID them drop significantly, but there are still quite a few.

If the character's role is not just CC, it's less important, but if their one and only speciality is beating face, you absolutely need Eternal Warrior to be useable.

Is it fluffy? No. Is it a requirement to make these characters useable? Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's off-topic, though. I think the Emperors Champion would make sense with either 3 Wounds, or 2W with Eternal Warrior. 3W with EW is just a bit too much for his fluff.

Personally for CC bad asses id be more inclined to make them harder to hit or attack first based on skill not toughness and longevity

Sense im fine with ws7. but i think another idea would be in a challenge he is only hit on a 6 in a certain stance.

That way he can still get las cannoned in the face but is much harder to kill in CC.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Emperor's Champion Ulricus, alongside High Marshal Ludoldus and Canoness Jasmine, fought and defeated a Greater Daemon of Khorne in the Battle of Fire and Blood. Seeing as they all lived through the volcano they were fighing in erupting, that's something.

And if we're being literal, Sigismund was the first Emperor's Champion, and he's pretty much a textbook example of who should have Eternal Warrior (as is Ludoldus, but that's a different story).

The Marshal Ludoldus threw a Holy Orb of Antioch into a pit of lava, and that's what ended the Greater Daemon.

The other thing is that the Emperors Champion is a title, not a person, and I don't believe there's any rank requisite for the person who becomes the EC, just that they receive the vision. So you could get huge variation with initiates or some of the very best Sword Brethren receiving the position.

 Formosa wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No where in lysanders fluff does it show him able to survive injuries that would kill a normal marine, belial however has such fluff and doesn't get ew, it's quite odd I think.

Excuse me? Now I'm not even an Imperial Fists fanboy at all but that's plainly untrue

Before Lysander was even a Space Marine he was famous for surviving an Ork Waaagh! and the Quesarch Heresy, and whilst a 1st Company Captain him and several of his Marines were captured and tortured by the Iron Warriors for a considerable amount of time, which requires quite a large amount of endurance, and then he escaped with no weapons or armour. He was then tested by the chapter's offices of apothecaries, chaplains and librarians and survived that too.

After that, he destroyed the world he was tortured on and later defeated the Warsmith who took him prisoner.

Belial got his ass wiped by Ghazghkull, is a self-depressive "coulda done it better" sort of guy who got promoted to his position for bravery. His name comes from a Hebrew Idiom "Son of Belial", meaning to be a worthless man.

Relating to topic ; eternal warrior should stop getting handed out like candy to make characters decent, it should apply to characters who are specifically renowned for being hard to kill, and since the EC is a generic warrior who is renowned for having the best equipment that's not really applicable to him.

And none of that is particularly hard for a normal fluff marine, tortured.. Yawn, happens all the time and is not enough to warrant ew.
Survived a waagh, again that's normal for marines, it's where he got his bolter drill from though so that's ok.
Survived the attentions if his chapters Libys and chaplains, again run of the mill.

Belial got cut in HALF by ghazghull and lived, that's worthy of eternal warrior, not a bit of torture, doing run of the mill marine stuff and then getting a good look over by the chapters higher ups, lysanders ew has no basis in fluff, it's a game mechanic they wanted to use and nothing more.

This is Chaos Space Marine level torture, which isn't a joke, especially given how mad the Iron Warriors have always been at the Fists. It would probably be testing on mental endurance and physical endurance, as well as posing the threat of taint. This is in combination with a mortal pilgrim that survived one of the most destructive forces of war any enemy of the Imperium can muster in the form of the Waaagh, and surviving an insurrection by heretics, which would be no doubt dangerous for anyone.

Lysander is no doubt an extremely remarkable Captain, whereas Belial is only remarkable for holding the position, Cypher has run circles around him and if one-time grievous wounds alone are grounds for EW, half the Iron Hands Chapter should probably have the rule by that logic, if nothing else their higher ups, as they're almost entirely cybernetic inside.

Also, I can find no evidence at all for Belial being ripped in half by Ghazghkull at any point. Where is your source for this? Between the fact that visual depictions of him are per the norm for Terminator Marines and well, the fact nothing I'm reading on any site makes any mention of such an occurrence, I'm doubtful.

 Desubot wrote:
Personally for CC bad asses id be more inclined to make them harder to hit or attack first based on skill not toughness and longevity

Sense im fine with ws7. but i think another idea would be in a challenge he is only hit on a 6 in a certain stance.

That way he can still get las cannoned in the face but is much harder to kill in CC.

That would be cool, but doesn't work with the current Close Combat rules. What would you change? Make the to-hit chart have more 5s and some 6s in CC? Then Avatars and DPs become stupid good. Do you add a Special Rule? Then you just have a case of another dumb USR being handed out like candy, and as many people will complain when GW releases the Blade Eternal which grants 'Duel Master' to those who weild it.

Its adding a stance to a special set of rules he already has.
I:e - The emparas guidance, the EC is only hit on 6s in challenges. he gains no additional bonus, is still ST4 so wont reliably kill things he should be reliably killing while being hard to kill him self.

Demon princes and avatars are supposed to be another level of CC monsters. literally a demon compared to the EC which is a human.

Handing out EW is the laziest way of making a special character.

Only hit on 6s? Really? So it doesn't matter if I'm a Grot or a God, I'm still hitting on 6s? There's a reason people hate Invisibility. Against non-S8+, this also double-stacks so that he's neither being hit NOR badly wounded, making him ridiculously hard to kill. Also, hitting with AP2 at I6 is still fantastic, even with S4.

Eternal Warrior is not anywhere near that strong. It only affects a few types of weapons, and only partially weakens them.

Once again, it's a matter of balance, not fluff. Avatars and Bloodthirsters are much better fluff-wise then game-wise. Game-wise, though, a Guardsman can punch out a Space Marine one in nine times he lands a punch. The rules exist to keep the game within a range of playability, not to match the fluff perfectly.