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Is it true that Apocalypse formations are legal in regular games of 40k under 7th edition rules?

I can't seem to find any reference to it, but all the people at my FLGS believe it is true.

Nope, Apocalypse formations are still for Apocalypse only.

 grendel083 wrote:
Nope, Apocalypse formations are still for Apocalypse only.

Citation needed.

As far as I can see they are simply formations that are found in the Apoc Book(and one of the only reasons to even still buy the Apoc book.)

The special rules for formations at the begining of the Apoc book are obviously not in use, but the formations themselves are just formations. Otherwise we have no formations other than the few that were brought out in 6th(Cadre firebase, The Nid one, etc)

Ah, but they do not say they can be used in 40k. If they don't than they can't be used. That and the apoc book has no control over 40k. It is technically a different game, like cites of death or planet-strike. You need to cite where they can be used before they can be used.

Many Apoc Formations have Apoc only rules. If you propose that these formation can be used in standard, non Apoc 40k, how do you propose that these rules are understood?

Also, Apocalypse Formation is a proper noun. So is Formation.

Formations are allowed in 40k. Apocalypse Formations aren't Formations. They are formations, but not Formations. I know this distinction is confusing. It would have been simpler had GW not used the same word to name to distinctly different, but similar things.

Apocalypse Formations are for Apocalypse only. Formations are for 40k.

 Kriswall wrote:
Many Apoc Formations have Apoc only rules. If you propose that these formation can be used in standard, non Apoc 40k, how do you propose that these rules are understood?

Also, Apocalypse Formation is a proper noun. So is Formation.

Formations are allowed in 40k. Apocalypse Formations aren't Formations. They are formations, but not Formations. I know this distinction is confusing. It would have been simpler had GW not used the same word to name to distinctly different, but similar things.

Apocalypse Formations are for Apocalypse only. Formations are for 40k.

Is there an easy way to tell between "Apocalypse Formations" and "Formations" ? I was looking at a Warzone book last night and i was thinking of this.

Not easily, but apocalypse formations are found in the apocalypse book and apocalypse supplements. Regular formation are not. Where apocalypse formations appear in other sources they should be clearly defined.

I am really confused about the distinction and know several players who are using Apocalypse Formations in standard 40k games. The logic at my FLGS is that they can be used and there's no difference between formations and Formations.

Here's why I think it's crazy: A BA player was using The Black Rage formation in a game. Turn 5, he had 3 Death Company squads get 5 extra attacks on the charge. Standard Apocalypse crazy stuff like this doesn't belong in 40k.

Agreed. Some of them are ridiculous in standard 40k. With your opponents consent, then fine but they are no more legal for use in 40k than deploying a formation of x-wings.

Ork bully boyz in normal game please.... greentide GL taking that objective away! xD

It's extremely easy to tell what belongs in 40k and what belongs in Apocalypse.

Apocalypse Formations are found in the Apoc Rulebook, Warzone Apoc Supplements and in various other sources (including White Dwarf), where they are ALWAYS marked as Apocalypse. These are intended for Apocalypse games only and will cause rules issues (Apoc only rules not existing) or balance issues in games of Standard 40k.

All other Formations are intended for Standard 40k (and by extension can be used in Apocalypse just like any other Standard 40k unit).

If your FLGS has a house rule letting you use them, that's fine, but then you're not playing Standard 40k. You're playing Modified Local FLGS 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is fair to note that there aren't very many Standard 40k Formations right now. That's normal given that the concept is still fairly new, whereas Apoc has been around for some time.

Some Formations are also marked out by their use of Apoc only terms (such as Strategic Reserve).

And yeah, there are almost zero formations available for regular 40k.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Some Formations are also marked out by their use of Apoc only terms (such as Strategic Reserve).

And yeah, there are almost zero formations available for regular 40k.

7 Space marine
4 Chaos Marine
1Tau
1 Eldar
14 or 15 Nids.

So while not one for every codex yet, there are still a bunch out there. Only the Tau and Eldar formations buff an already strong unit. The nid's bring nid's up to a level that should have been in the codex. The Marine formations range bring some nice buffs, both chaos and imperial.

barnowl wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Some Formations are also marked out by their use of Apoc only terms (such as Strategic Reserve).

And yeah, there are almost zero formations available for regular 40k.

7 Space marine
4 Chaos Marine
1Tau
1 Eldar
14 or 15 Nids.

So while not one for every codex yet, there are still a bunch out there. Only the Tau and Eldar formations buff an already strong unit. The nid's bring nid's up to a level that should have been in the codex. The Marine formations range bring some nice buffs, both chaos and imperial.

Over half the armies in the game don't have access to any at all, and less than a quarter of available armies (not including supplements) have access to more than a single one. That's a damn sparse selection.

There are also the two militarum tempestus ones. I am guessing they will introduce more with new codexes as well.

Formations (Apocolypse or otherwise) are allowed in normal games. BRB, page 121; the black box on the right. It explains clear as day that Formations can be used and how they are viewed in an army.

 dg3263827 wrote:
Formations (Apocolypse or otherwise) are allowed in normal games. BRB, page 121; the black box on the right. It explains clear as day that Formations can be used and how they are viewed in an army.

Clear as day? It actually says Apocalypse does it?

Yes, clear as day. It says Formations... and Apocalypse Formations ARE Formations.

And to me, logic dictates, that if an Army can include a Lord of War (from the Apocalypse book) then it can include a Formation (from the Apocalypse book).

Yes Apocalypse formations are formations.... For Apocalypse.
Which is very different from a game of 40k

And you take your Lords of a War from Escalation, or ForgeWorld books, not from Apocalypse.

 grendel083 wrote:
Yes Apocalypse formations are formations.... For Apocalypse.
Which is very different from a game of 40k.

Formations are Formations. Apocolypse or otherwise.

grendel083 wrote:
And you take your Lords of a War from Escalation, or ForgeWorld books, not from Apocalypse.

Please cite reference.


If Apocalypse material isn't supposed to be used in "regular" 40k, why does the BRB explain rules for Apocalyptic Blast, Mega-blast, Barrage, etc?

BRB, page 158; the book references an "aquila macro-cannon" which is a weapon found in the Apocalypse book. Why would they do that if Apocalypse material couldn't be used?

... because those rules apply to imperial knights and lords of war, which are allowed in 40k...

The aquila macro cannon is also found in stronghold assault, a 40kto supplement

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The aquila macro cannon is also found in stronghold assault, a 40kto supplement

Okay. Where in the BRB does it say I can use material found in Stronghold Assault?

EDIT: Nevermind. Found it.

Where does it say you can use apocalypse formations?

 dg3263827 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

The aquila macro cannon is also found in stronghold assault, a 40kto supplement

Okay. Where in the BRB does it say I can use material found in Stronghold Assault?

The "Choosing your Army" section.
Where it talks about Battlefield roles, speifically Fortifcations.

Also in the General Principles sections.
That same section it also mentions a "game of Apocalypse" (as this isn't a standard game of 40).

Also from Imperial Armour: Apocalypse
"Apocalypse Formations are intended for use in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse"
The book uses "Apocalypse Formations" and "Battle Formations"
Where in the rulebook does it say that "Formations" also covers these, and you can use them in a standard game of 40k?

It seems like everything from the Apocalypse book is also in other books, except for Formations.

Formations is a blanket term, and Apocalypse Formations falls under that term. In addition, no where does it say where I get Formation information from so, to me, that means that any Formation is fair game. So, to me, Apocalypse Formations are allowed.

 dg3263827 wrote:
Formations is a blanket term, and Apocalypse Formations falls under that term.

Prove it.

Prove that when they say "Formations" they are not just refering to "Formations" and that "Apocalypse Formations" and "Battle Formations" are also covered. Page numbers please.
Prove that it's a blanket term, not a specific one.

Apocalypse Formations. Battle Formations. I don't need a page number because the word is right there! Formations are allowed, therefore, the two aforementioned types of Formations are allowed.

 dg3263827 wrote:
Apocalypse Formations. Battle Formations. I don't need a page number because the word is right there! Formations are allowed, therefore, the two aforementioned types of Formations are allowed.

Because they have the word "Formation" in it? That's all?

So things like:
"Apocalypse Formations are intended for use in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse"

Don't apply?

An item that effects a Bolter will also effect a Heavy Bolter? Becasue the names are similar?

 grendel083 wrote:

 dg3263827 wrote:
Apocalypse Formations. Battle Formations. I don't need a page number because the word is right there! Formations are allowed, therefore, the two aforementioned types of Formations are allowed.

Because they have the word "Formation" in it? That's all?

So things like:
"Apocalypse Formations are intended for use in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse"

Don't apply?

That does apply, but that also doesn't mean it can't be used in other game types.

This entire time, I've been looking for "Formations" and apart from the Apocalypse and Battle Formations, I can't find any "regular" Formations. I've scoured the few codices I have as well as the BRB and the GW website.

Sidenote: The Imperial Knight is listed in the Apocalypse Formations section of the Force Organization tab of the GW website.

There are two Formations listed in the Miltarum Tempestus Codex.

Edit: I belive the Tyranid dataslates also contain Formations.

 dg3263827 wrote:
Sidenote: The Imperial Knight is listed in the Apocalypse Formations section of the Force Organization tab of the GW website.

They're also listed under the "Warhammer 40,000 Armies" section.