Presbyterian Church votes to allow same-sex marriage

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**curran12**

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140619/RELIGION/306190125/Presbyterian-Church-votes-allow-same-sex-marriage

Spoiler:

Detroit— The U.S. Presbyterian Church’s highest council Thursday voted to sanction same-sex marriage.

The issue was among several considered during the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s 221st General Assembly, held at the Cobo Convention Center in downtown Detroit. The convention began June 14 and runs through Saturday.

The assembly approved an amendment to the church constitution that would redefine marriage as between “two people” instead of “a man and a woman.” It also approved allowing its ministers to perform marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples in states where same-sex marriages are legal.

More than 650 of the church’s ruling and teaching elders voted on the issues. The elders were elected by presbyteries. There were also more than 200 advisory delegates who could speak and vote during committee meetings, but could only speak during the assembly’s plenary sessions.

The Presbyterian Church becomes the latest and one of the largest religious denominations in the United States to sanction same-sex marriage. They join at least a half-dozen others, including the Conservative and Reform Jewish Movements, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and the United Church of Christ.

However, the Catholic Church, Baptist churches, the Orthodox Jewish Movement and the United Methodist Church are among those against it.

Shortly after the vote, the Presbyterian Lay Committee Board of Directors issued a statement protesting the general assembly vote.

“The Presbyterian Lay Committee mourns these actions and calls on all Presbyterians to resist and protest them. You should tell your pastor and the members of your session that you disapprove of these actions,” the statement said.

Presbyterian Church (USA) is the country’s largest Presbyterian denomination with more than 10,000 congregations and membership of more than 1.8 million.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140619/RELIGION/306190125#ixzz357kR9HYb

Surprising news, not something that I would expect to read. But good news nonetheless. That's the sound of progress, folks.

**Asherian Command**

curran12 wrote:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140619/RELIGION/306190125/Presbyterian-Church-votes-allow-same-sex-marriage

Spoiler:

Detroit— The U.S. Presbyterian Church’s highest council Thursday voted to sanction same-sex marriage.

The issue was among several considered during the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s 221st General Assembly, held at the Cobo Convention Center in downtown Detroit. The convention began June 14 and runs through Saturday.

The assembly approved an amendment to the church constitution that would redefine marriage as between “two people” instead of “a man and a woman.” It also approved allowing its ministers to perform marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples in states where same-sex marriages are legal.

More than 650 of the church’s ruling and teaching elders voted on the issues. The elders were elected by presbyteries. There were also more than 200 advisory delegates who could speak and vote during committee meetings, but could only speak during the assembly’s plenary sessions.

The Presbyterian Church becomes the latest and one of the largest religious denominations in the United States to sanction same-sex marriage. They join at least a half-dozen others, including the Conservative and Reform Jewish Movements, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and the United Church of Christ.

However, the Catholic Church, Baptist churches, the Orthodox Jewish Movement and the United Methodist Church are among those against it.

Shortly after the vote, the Presbyterian Lay Committee Board of Directors issued a statement protesting the general assembly vote.

“The Presbyterian Lay Committee mourns these actions and calls on all Presbyterians to resist and protest them. You should tell your pastor and the members of your session that you disapprove of these actions,” the statement said.

Presbyterian Church (USA) is the country’s largest Presbyterian denomination with more than 10,000 congregations and membership of more than 1.8 million.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140619/RELIGION/306190125#ixzz357kR9HYb

Surprising news, not something that I would expect to read. But good news nonetheless. That's the sound of progress, folks.

Or you know following the actual texts of the bible. Mark having a few references to not being judgemental of others.

Anyway its good they finally have moved on. Shesh took them long enough

**Jimsolo**

Does this decision have any sticking power?

Are Presbyterians one of the denominations that don't acknowledge any binding religious hierarchy higher than the individual church? I thought they were, although I admit I don't know much about them.

I know a lot of the protestant branches are that way; any larger body of them is for community and networking purposes, but has no claim to binding authority.

**LordofHats**

This has been going on with several Protestant groups for some time (the first was the Episcopal Church). Its the reason the Christian Right is collapsing. A lot of Christian groups are starting to back off from a hard core conservative social stance.

**Frazzled**

Christian Right is not collapsing. As these chuches change they lose half their members to more hardcore different denomination churches. Not blowing smoke, as an old vestry member I've had to deal with this across the diocese.

Attendance at Episcopal churches has collapsed in the last ten years. We were stealing Catholics at a nice rate, no more.

**LordofHats**

Frazzled wrote:
Attendance at Episcopal churches has collapsed in the last ten years.

No it hasn't (but all the Episcopals who split off want you to think it has because they can't seem to tolerate the fact they represented less than 1/10 of the church). EDIT: To give more context to this, my mother was an active member of Falls Church, which recently lost a Supreme Court Battle concerning the ownership of the property. I've very familiar with the separatists of the Episcopal Church, and they're decent enough people but they've deluded themselves into thinking they're a majority when really they're such a small minority that their leaving the church is miniscule as an issue.

The Church faces a bigger problem from being mostly upper class White and having very low birth rates among its membership. membership will probably collapse fifteen, twenty years from now, but not right now.

I'm not saying the Christian right no longer matters. It does (Christains are going to keep mattering in US politics for a long ass time). But the Christian attitudes in the US are splitting, and it's having a noticeable effect in Republic politics at the State and Local levels. The 'Christian Right' as in the coalition that formed a huge basis in Reagan's success and has been a steady part of Republican politics for the last 30 years is falling apart.

**Frazzled**

Yea, it has, at least in the South.
Where did you get your data, mine comes from a Bishop.

**LordofHats**

Frazzled wrote:
Yea, it has, at least in the South.

Being in the South and being a Church that recently decided being Gay is okay, is that really surprising? Episcopals are also the most educated Christian denomination (as in they hold more college degrees than any other) which already lends people to being more liberal.

Where did you get your data, mine comes from a Bishop.

Episcopal Church's own data and simple sense. The Episcopals are one of the few Churches to have fairly even membership over the last few years (really they're probably of grown had the split not happened). Only about 120,000 people left the Church because of the issue with ordaining a Gay bishop. Another 30,000 left because they thought the Church was being an ahole about parish properties (and they kind of are being aholes about it).

Also look at the number of Parishes that broke off. There are over 7000 Episcopal Congregations, only about 300 left. EDIT: These churches joined the Angelican Church of North America, which in 2000 had about 600 Parishes. Now they have around 1000, and all the congregations that left the Episcopal Church joined up with them (that's not from an article, its just basic math using known membership numbers and what I know the leaving Congregations did).

The split hasn't really killed membership for the Episcopal Church (but like I said, their demographics don't favor them in the long run).

**Dreadclaw69**

Good for them

**Frazzled**

LordofHats wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Yea, it has, at least in the South.

Being in the South and being a Church that recently decided being Gay is okay, is that really surprising? Episcopals are also the most educated Christian denomination (as in they hold more college degrees than any other) which already lends people to being more liberal.

Where did you get your data, mine comes from a Bishop.

Episcopal Church's own data and simple sense. The Episcopals are one of the few Churches to have fairly even membership over the last few years (really they're probably of grown had the split not happened). Only about 120,000 people left the Church because of the issue with ordaining a Gay bishop. Another 30,000 left because they thought the Church was being an ahole about parish properties (and they kind of are being aholes about it).

Also look at the number of Parishes that broke off. There are over 7000 Episcopal Congregations, only about 300 left. EDIT: These churches joined the Angelican Church of North America, which in 2000 had about 600 Parishes. Now they have around 1000, and all the congregations that left the Episcopal Church joined up with them (that's not from an article, its just basic math using known membership numbers and what I know the leaving Congregations did).

The split hasn't really killed membership for the Episcopal Church (but like I said, their demographics don't favor them in the long run).

Public data boring real data is different. Its making assumptions on people even reporting leaving.

Absolute church attendance drops impressively when each sect does this. Sorry thats a reality.

Now if you've been on this board you should realize I'm not disagreeing with what they are doing.

**LordofHats**

Public data boring real data is different. Its making assumptions on people even reporting leaving.

This is true about all denominations at all times. It doesn't even really matter, as even if we assume Church membership is inflated by 10%, it's not really a secret that the congregations made it very clear they were no longer part of the Episcopal Church and that the Episcopal Church no longer considered them members. Even inflated statistics would show a significant decline if one were happening. The Episcopal Church has been pretty steady over the last decade, so all the cries that "they're gonna be sorry we left!" is just saber rattling from people who probably should have left since the Church no longer supports their views.

Absolute church attendance drops impressively when each sect does this. Sorry thats a reality.

So data that says Church membership hasn't been significantly effected doesn't matter then?

Church attendance has been dropping for decades across the board in all denominations in the US, even among ones that are growing. The Mormons are growing in membership but have seen Sunday service attendance go down. Even the Southern Baptist Convention, which until 2011 was a growing denomination saw attendance go down. It's not a secret either. I'm Christian but I find Church boring as balls, so I don't go. I find other ways to study and worship that suit me better. It's been going on for awhile, and it's not evidence that any specific denomination is experiencing a membership collapse.

I guess people would rather have fun during their weekend that listen to some old guy tell terrible jokes while talking about Jesus

**Frazzled**

Thats the public data. The real data we saw internally was quite a bit different.

**LordofHats**

Frazzled wrote:
Thats the public data. The real data we saw internally was quite a bit different.

Yes. The 'real data'. This is why I hate the citation game.

**Easy E**

Frazzled wrote:
Thats the public data. The real data we saw internally was quite a bit different.

Links or it didn't happen.

**SilverMK2**

More religious groups moving ever closer to the 21st century? Good to hear.

**Frazzled**

Easy E wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Thats the public data. The real data we saw internally was quite a bit different.

Links or it didn't happen.

No.

**SilverMK2**

Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Thats the public data. The real data we saw internally was quite a bit different.

Links or it didn't happen.

No.

You gotta have faith, apparently

**Frazzled**

If it helps whenever we deal with the bishop I always wear my high end white Hawaiian shirt with the palm trees.

**SilverMK2**

Frazzled wrote:
If it helps whenever we deal with the bishop I always wear my high end white Hawaiian shirt with the palm trees.

I am given to understand that Jesus spent the "missing years" surfing on Hawaii, so that is a pretty religiously significant shirt.

**Frazzled**

Exactly.

"Dude that was a gnarly wave. Beer me!"
- Surfer Jesus.

**curran12**

The tie-dye of Turin.