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2014/06/23 20:47:18
Subject: Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
I'd like to pick dakkadakka's brain for vanilla SM tactics in 7th. The difficulties I'm imposing: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14. Why? I just don't like them. I'm one of those stupid players that values aesthetics and theme very highly, but I do still try to be competitive within the arbitrary restrictions I've set for myself. I'd also like to avoid using allies or dataslates as much as possible - I started playing a billion years ago before those were things and while I don't begrudge the hobby for introducing them or other players for using them, I like to keep my army as old-school in that regard as possible.
tl;dr how do i good while still making stupid unit choices
I actually had been quite successful so far not having any of those things. Mind you I've yet to make the hard switch to 7th, and probably won't until I relocate.
Truth be told the codex is so in tune with itself that you can very easily fill those roles with other units. Honour Guard make perfect Terminator stand-ins, bikes are completely optional and these days are mostly just a platform for Grav guns, so it's not that big of a game changer to do without them and with av12 and 13 in abundance you don't need the LR.
Try mixing it up with whatever you want. Nothing, but nothing in the SM codex is unusable or broken.
Gets along better with animals... Go figure.
2014/06/23 21:58:50
Subject: Re:Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
Nononononono. No objective secured drop pods! Here is my argument against them:
Spoiler:
Now, to combat the legitimate hype train of "Objective secured AV12 Lytches!".
1. Tactical Squads arriving in pods are not very mobile.
2. Drop Pods are not mobile.
3. This combination makes it hard for you to take advantage of the technical 2 Obj Secured units in one, since it will be a rare chance that positioning a pod and its tac squad in such a was that they can cap two objectives per the board layout is going to be a smart move per opponent deployment and subsequent moves.
4. I wouldn't consider a storm bolter a "turret" so I am guessing everyone will be doing the smart thing and turning their 35 point drop pod into a 50 point str5 ap- large blast that now admittedly is better now that it can fire the turn it lands.
5. And I say 12" str5 ap- large blast and not "deathwind" because despite the name it isnt doing anything more than hitting a few units and doing in general worse or as good as bolter shots. This is not a large blast Heavy Bolter, this isnt even a large blast bolt pistol, it has one higher str than a bolt pistol but always grants armor saves. The mass units that you would normally gain an advantage of with large blasts laugh at your fancy name firecracker because they get to use their armor save.
6. Call me crazy, but I would hesitate to even take the deathwind if it was free. Course' I would if facing lots of 4+ or better saves where the storm bolter wouldnt help, but 5+ save (where in general large blasts help) I would be hesitant to take the deathbreeze.
7. So the deathbreeze may not be great, it may not even be 15 points decent, but surely there are scenarios in which it would help. Yea, remember, you are using this as an objective secured AV12 all round token. Deathbreeze has 12" range. It is conceivable that whatever is wanting to cap can take 13" shots at it and run to hold the objective. Something that cannot be easily done with 24" storm bolter, where they don't have the luxury of being 13" away but 25" is the minimum safe distance, so they have to grin and bear it.
8. Storm Bolter, free and causes them to grin and bear it, not great. But grinning and bearing it will have them lose a little, and some of this, a turn or two from that, and you have sufficiently weakened them to where they most likely don't have the dice to take out the av12 token with a storm bolter.
9. So, now that people see past the deathbreeze's "str5" bluff and you realize any benefits aren't worth the 15 points, you are stuck with the realization that you get a AV12 token that has a storm bolter, doesn't protect your troops, doesn't give your troops mobility, and oh yea, the thing that drop pods are actually used for.... or were with tac squads...
NUMBER 10!!!!- Getting a scoring unit to a place it can score! It doesnt do that with any sort of efficiency that 7th ed. dedicated transports provide. The point of having drop pods for your tac squads was to get your only legitimate source of scoring (tac squads) to the objective. While it didn't get any worse or better at that with 7th edition, thats the problem. Now every dedicated transport has the ability to protect troops, deliver troops to either an objective or place that needs them, and then has the ability to go and snag an objective late game as a bonus. The drop pod has always sacrificed mobility and cargo protection for delivering troops on time, but it didn't gain the mobile objective secure rule that all the other dedicated transports did, it is an immobile token that can have a storm bolter, and it is in the same vicinity as your troops, which are not mobile in any sense of the game.
As for "they are super survivable". That's an illusion. Nobody had reason to shoot at them before, the only time they would get shot at is if the opponent has destroyed everything in the max range radius and decided to take a pop shot at it. So of course your drop pods always lasted more than anything else, from the turn they were in play they did their job and there is no benefit in most games from shooting at them.
Lastly, don't fool yourself with any inkling of AV12 survivability, ESPECIALLY with AV12 in meq 'dexes. Not only are these open-topped, but they are immobile. While on paper immobile doesn't mean much either way, it means a lot now that they are a target, since not only do you not have the option of hiding/maneuvering said vehicle away from getting hit, your opponent doesn't have to worry about if and when he will be able to shoot at it and with what units. It doesn't move, you as the controlling player can't do more with it then roll to hit with a couple str4 or str5 dice, so your opponent can tell themselves "I know how much fire power it will take, I can mitigate that amount from local units as convenient".
Keeping it short, its an ork token that is impossible unless foolish to destroy comparatively to any other vehicle in the game, don't use it for objective secured and give them a reason to destroy it.
Going by your parameters, I dont have to change my tournament list at all!:
Spoiler:
Iran Hands-1850
HQ:
1x Master of the Forge- 90pts
Troops:
10 man tac squad, 1MM, 1meltagun, rhino- 195pts
10 man tac squad, 1MM, 1meltagun, rhino- 195pts
5 man tac squad, 1MM, razorback- 135pts
5 man tac squad, 1MM, razorback- 135pts
8 man scouts cloaks, 7x sniper, 1 Heavy Bolter, Hellfire- 125pts
The plan: So the plan is to pile all the tac squads in the rhinos and razorbacks, the MOTF in the stormraven, bolster ruins with the MOTF and put the sniper scouts with their cloaks in 2+ cover save, have the knight smash through their lines, hurling str9 ap1 large-blast melta everywhere, then send in the fliers for air superiority. Take the tac marines out of the rhinos and razorback, combat squading from rhinos, then depending on what the opponent has, screen them with the rhinos and razorbacks or use the rhinos to objective secure stuff (using their guns to shot enemies in range), all 5-man tac squads as well as the transports have OS. Use the MOTF to repair the storm raven and use it as a fire magnet because it repairs HP on a 3+ from MOTF and it has IWND.
Oh, and everything has either ITND or 6+ FNP.
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2014/06/23 22:05:31
Subject: Re:Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
here are two easy ways I can think of running this some what competitively
salamanders vulkan for vulkan goodness, lots of tactical squads drop podding in with max flamers / meltas (and master crafted sgt combis), add in a few ironclad dreads and/or sternguard with flamers / meltas ... alpha strike your opponent and enjoy cracking armor / roasting infantry
white scars rhino rush ... khan on foot (more than likely in a sternguard rhino), max tactical squads in rhinos, add in a few sternguard in rhinos .... since everyone is in a dedicated transport they can all scout move 12" from the edge of your deployment zone, t1 hits and you flat out and pop smoke on the front row for cover, t2 you disembark and alpha strike your opponent with around 100 power armored space marines (add in rhino wall/boxing tactics to flavor after you disembark.
when I get home I can run the numbers on both lists if you would like
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/23 22:06:19
2014/06/23 22:28:50
Subject: Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
1850-2000 point list:
MotF with Conversion Beamer(on foot)
2 Dreads with Multi Melta and Heavy Flamer
2 Dreads with Assault Cannon and Storm Bolter
2 10-man Tac squads with Plasa Gun and Cannon(combat squads the Sgt salt and Peppered to your tastes into a mobile 5-man squad each)
2 10-man Tac Squads with Heavy bolter and either plasma or flamer as mobile Objective seekers(Again salt and pepper sgts to your liking)
Storm Talon Typhoon
5-10 man Dev squad with 4 Lascannons and Naked Sgt.
Last game I played with a similar list(Clan Raukaan with a jump captain instead of the MotF and a 10-man Assault squad combat squaded,) I only lost both assault squad elements and had 1 dread immobilized to a pen and the other lost and then regained 1 Hull point.
The MotF goes in the dev squad and they get put in some bolstered defenses. The dreads are split between HS and Elites. I prefer the Typhoon on the storm talon for the 2 Shot variable target Gun as opposed to the 3 shot Str 7 one because of the flexibility(Higher Str vs vehicles, more hits or forced spacing from the blasts).
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2014/06/24 02:32:38
Subject: Re:Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
Razorbacks and rhinos can do some hilarious things currently, and devestators are nothing to sneeze at if you try using them, too. It really depends.
Pods are super scary now if you use them correctly (and ironclads have become a pain to kill).
Are you playing Maelstrom? That can also change things.
For Maelstrom, at 1500, maybe try this: I'd use either Iron Hands or Imperial Fists tactics (Imp Fists make those devastators very scary). If you need the points, lose 5 marines and a PC from one of the 10 man squad units and add 7 flakk missiles to devs, instead (for AA).
HQ: Libby, Lvl 2: 90
Troops: 10x Tac squad w/ PC and Flamer: 195 w/ Rhino
10x Tac squad w/ PC and Flamer: 195 w/ Rhino
10x Tac squad w/ PC and flamer: 235 w/ Razorback w/ TLAC
5x Tac Squad w/ flamer: 150 w/ Razorback w/ TLAC
Heavy Support: 5x Dev Squad w/ 4 ML: 205 w/ Razorback w/ TLLC
5x Dev Squad w/ 4ML: 205 w/ Razorback w/ TLLC
5x Dev Squad w/ 4LC: 225 w/ Razorback w/TLLC
Total: 1500 pts on the dot.
This list actually seems strong to me. You combat squad the 10 man squads, leave the PC to pressure the enemy, have 7LC to hit enemy armor (3 TL, and 4 potentially tank-hunters), 8 MLs to hit enemy armor (again potentially tank-hunters), 4 flamers, 2 TLAC, and 1 Lvl 2 psyker.
The Devs/PCs allow you to control home objectives, while the 2 rhinos, 2 TLAC razors, and 3 TLLC razors allow you to move forward to contest + add firepower. Putting the Libby in a rhino with telepathy can give you a wide variety of ways to just destroy things.
This list should be able to put out a ton of pain, take it (it's hard to kill all the threats) and is flexible. It's just what you need for objective missions (esp. Maelstrom).
Is this the kind of list you were thinking of?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/29 05:28:50
Fiat Lux
2014/06/30 02:29:45
Subject: Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
I am actually working with similiar limits imposed by models. I would at UM with Calgar, IF or SoT depending on how you like your bolter drill, and Ravenguard. These 3 CT's work best with infantry blobs.Iron Hands would also be good, but tends to force mech lists. Though it does look like you tend to Iron hands.
What type of units do you like to run?
2014/06/30 04:45:13
Subject: Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
Hashbeth wrote: Razorbacks and rhinos can do some hilarious things currently, and devestators are nothing to sneeze at if you try using them, too. It really depends.
Pods are super scary now if you use them correctly (and ironclads have become a pain to kill).
Are you playing Maelstrom? That can also change things.
For Maelstrom, at 1500, maybe try this: I'd use either Iron Hands or Imperial Fists tactics (Imp Fists make those devastators very scary). If you need the points, lose 5 marines and a PC from one of the 10 man squad units and add 7 flakk missiles to devs, instead (for AA).
HQ: Libby, Lvl 2: 90
Troops: 10x Tac squad w/ PC and Flamer: 195
w/ Rhino
10x Tac squad w/ PC and Flamer: 195
w/ Rhino
10x Tac squad w/ PC and flamer: 235
w/ Razorback w/ TLAC
5x Tac Squad w/ flamer: 150
w/ Razorback w/ TLAC
Heavy Support: 5x Dev Squad w/ 4 ML: 205
w/ Razorback w/ TLLC
5x Dev Squad w/ 4ML: 205
w/ Razorback w/ TLLC
5x Dev Squad w/ 4LC: 225
w/ Razorback w/TLLC
Total: 1500 pts on the dot.
This list actually seems strong to me. You combat squad the 10 man squads, leave the PC to pressure the enemy, have 7LC to hit enemy armor (3 TL, and 4 potentially tank-hunters), 8 MLs to hit enemy armor (again potentially tank-hunters), 4 flamers, 2 TLAC, and 1 Lvl 2 psyker.
The Devs/PCs allow you to control home objectives, while the 2 rhinos, 2 TLAC razors, and 3 TLLC razors allow you to move forward to contest + add firepower. Putting the Libby in a rhino with telepathy can give you a wide variety of ways to just destroy things.
This list should be able to put out a ton of pain, take it (it's hard to kill all the threats) and is flexible. It's just what you need for objective missions (esp. Maelstrom).
Is this the kind of list you were thinking of?
You can't fit 10 marines in a RB
DA: 8-2-0 in 7th Edition
Dwarfs: 1-0-0
Dark Elves: 3-0-0
Brets: 1-1-0
2014/06/30 12:49:27
Subject: Space marines tactics: no bikes, no terminator armor, no AV14
Hashbeth wrote: Razorbacks and rhinos can do some hilarious things currently, and devestators are nothing to sneeze at if you try using them, too. It really depends.
Pods are super scary now if you use them correctly (and ironclads have become a pain to kill).
Are you playing Maelstrom? That can also change things.
For Maelstrom, at 1500, maybe try this: I'd use either Iron Hands or Imperial Fists tactics (Imp Fists make those devastators very scary). If you need the points, lose 5 marines and a PC from one of the 10 man squad units and add 7 flakk missiles to devs, instead (for AA).
HQ: Libby, Lvl 2: 90
Troops: 10x Tac squad w/ PC and Flamer: 195
w/ Rhino
10x Tac squad w/ PC and Flamer: 195
w/ Rhino
10x Tac squad w/ PC and flamer: 235
w/ Razorback w/ TLAC
5x Tac Squad w/ flamer: 150
w/ Razorback w/ TLAC
Heavy Support: 5x Dev Squad w/ 4 ML: 205
w/ Razorback w/ TLLC
5x Dev Squad w/ 4ML: 205
w/ Razorback w/ TLLC
5x Dev Squad w/ 4LC: 225
w/ Razorback w/TLLC
Total: 1500 pts on the dot.
This list actually seems strong to me. You combat squad the 10 man squads, leave the PC to pressure the enemy, have 7LC to hit enemy armor (3 TL, and 4 potentially tank-hunters), 8 MLs to hit enemy armor (again potentially tank-hunters), 4 flamers, 2 TLAC, and 1 Lvl 2 psyker.
The Devs/PCs allow you to control home objectives, while the 2 rhinos, 2 TLAC razors, and 3 TLLC razors allow you to move forward to contest + add firepower. Putting the Libby in a rhino with telepathy can give you a wide variety of ways to just destroy things.
This list should be able to put out a ton of pain, take it (it's hard to kill all the threats) and is flexible. It's just what you need for objective missions (esp. Maelstrom).
Is this the kind of list you were thinking of?
You can't fit 10 marines in a RB
They don't have to fit. it can deploy empty or you can combat squad and send half with the Razor and half on foot.