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I was talking with someone today who genuinely believes that the (Canadian) government should be allowed to - at will and outside of the court system - infringe on anyone's right to privacy, anytime, for any reason, because "If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry about it".

So. Terrifying.

They genuinely believe it... and are OK with this happening.

THANKS OBAMA.

Just out of interest what is wrong with it?

I see how it can be an issue such as those breaching the privacy being able to abuse it. But aside from that issue are there any other reasons against it.

Seriously weigh up the pros and cons though.

I can see plenty of benefits with the only bad side being corruption. but I never thought about it much before.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Just out of interest what is wrong with it?

I see how it can be an issue such as those breaching the privacy being able to abuse it. But aside from that issue are there any other reasons against it.

Seriously weigh up the pros and cons though.

I can see plenty of benefits with the only bad side being corruption. but I never thought about it much before.

What's wrong is that 'if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to fear' suddenly becomes a legitimate excuse to do things. If you've nothing to hide then you won't mind Govt. authorised skyward installing itself on your PC, or CCTV being installed in your home, or <insert equally absurd proposition here>. Anyone who disagrees must be up to something.

Of course, the above are hardly logical outcomes, but it becomes a scary precedent that only takes one act of misuse in order to start a lot of dominoes falling. It's not an excuse I'd be quick to trust people with using not only justly, but morally correctly.

And mine is "I do have things to hide, If my family finds my collection, there will be intervventions

A Pratchett quote I like:

“Cheery was aware that Commander Vimes didn't like the phrase 'The innocent have nothing to fear', believing the innocent had everything to fear, mostly from the guilty but in the longer term even more from those who say things like 'The innocent have nothing to fear'.”

and

"The news that they have nothing to fear is guaranteed to strike terror into the hearts of innocents"

Next thing you know They (government) creates a Federal Funding group for young teens. After awhile suggestions are made to the young teens to record any negative thoughts and talks their family members may utter in the privac..in their homes to their government leaders

Is it not ironic that the government will arrest you for walking around the streets with no clothes on and wants to put cameras in your bathroom?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it not ironic that the government will arrest you for walking around the streets with no clothes on and wants to put cameras in your bathroom?

It's all part of the new "no shirt, no shoes, no shower" law. Nobody will be allowed to indecently expose themselves to themselves again! This is a huge win for everyone involved!

My standard response to: "If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry about it"

Is to say " off"... none of your beeswaxs!

"If I have nothing to hide, then you wouldn't get a warrent to do what you are proposing to do... therefore why should I be happy to let you go ahead and do it for no reason?"

SBG wrote:
I was talking with someone today who genuinely believes that the (Canadian) government should be allowed to - at will and outside of the court system - infringe on anyone's right to privacy, anytime, for any reason, because "If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry about it".

So. Terrifying.

They genuinely believe it... and are OK with this happening.

THANKS OBAMA.

There are also Holocaust deniers out there. (Does that count as Godwinning the thread?) And white supremacists. And people who believe that vicious, excessive beatings are the only way to get children to learn discipline. In other words, there's no shortage of mind-numbingly stupid opinions out there.

Honestly, I think that if you ask long enough, pretty much everyone in the world will hold an opinion that you would hold as mind-numbingly stupid. I've reached the point in my life where a friend says something ludicrous like 'American Idol is the best television show ever made,' I just weigh that silliness against how good a person they are and how much I enjoy their company. If I held the extreme foolishness of everyone against them, I'd be a pretty lonely person. And I'd have to find some way to stop talking to myself, too.

If my Government wants to use the "If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about" excuse to justify violating my privacy then I demand the same in return.

I will demand the right to read the emails, text messages, voice mail, telephone records, medical records, bank statements, tax returns, online internet activity, google searches, and more; of ALL Government Ministers, Members of Parliament, House of Lords Peers etc. After all, if they have nothing to hide then they have nothing to worry about, do they?


The problem with the "Nothing to hide = nothing to fear" excuse is that EVERYBODY has something to hide (Politicians MOST OF ALL), things that aren't even necessarily criminal but are deeply private and potentially embarrassing should anybody find out and leak it.

You might be having an affair; you might be gay but haven't come out; you might have said or posted politically incorrect opinions and statements in private correspondence with friends or online; you might have engaged in "sexting"; you might have a certain sexual fetish; you might have a medical condition...

There are many, many things that the average person will want to keep secret and private, to avoid embarrassment, humiliation and damage to their reputation, career and personal relationships. I live in a country where Government employees lose files, flash drives and laptops full of private confidential taxpayer/patient/etc records with alarming regularity.


A world with no checks on the Government's ability and right to violate the privacy of its citizens will be the realisation of George Orwell's 1984 and all that he warned of...Big Brother. Thought Crime. Political Correctness...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
"If I have nothing to hide, then you wouldn't get a warrent to do what you are proposing to do... therefore why should I be happy to let you go ahead and do it for no reason?"

Exalted. You should need a good reason to take away my right to privacy, there's no way you're taking it away just because you think I have nothing I want to hide.

SBG wrote:
I was talking with someone today who genuinely believes that the (Canadian) government should be allowed to - at will and outside of the court system - infringe on anyone's right to privacy, anytime, for any reason, because "If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry about it".

So. Terrifying.

They genuinely believe it... and are OK with this happening.

THANKS OBAMA.

Welcome to the totalitarian tip toe my friend. Enjoy the ride.

The "War on Terror" is a war on everyone.

 whembly wrote:
My standard response to: "If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry about it"

Is to say " off"... none of your beeswaxs!

Simple solution to the "If you have nothing to hide" statement is to ask them increasingly graphic questions about their sex life, number of sexual partners, turn ons, history of STDs, etc. and see what the reaction is

 44Ronin wrote:

SBG wrote:
I was talking with someone today who genuinely believes that the (Canadian) government should be allowed to - at will and outside of the court system - infringe on anyone's right to privacy, anytime, for any reason, because "If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry about it".

So. Terrifying.

They genuinely believe it... and are OK with this happening.

THANKS OBAMA.

Welcome to the totalitarian tip toe my friend. Enjoy the ride.

The "War on Terror" is a war on everyone.

I never thought I'd run into this opinion in Canada, though. I mean, we're essentially Socialist, sure, but ...not like that. I had hope, you know?.

 Jimsolo wrote:

SBG wrote:
I was talking with someone today who genuinely believes that the (Canadian) government should be allowed to - at will and outside of the court system - infringe on anyone's right to privacy, anytime, for any reason, because "If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry about it".

So. Terrifying.

They genuinely believe it... and are OK with this happening.

THANKS OBAMA.

There are also Holocaust deniers out there. (Does that count as Godwinning the thread?) And white supremacists. And people who believe that vicious, excessive beatings are the only way to get children to learn discipline. In other words, there's no shortage of mind-numbingly stupid opinions out there.

Honestly, I think that if you ask long enough, pretty much everyone in the world will hold an opinion that you would hold as mind-numbingly stupid. I've reached the point in my life where a friend says something ludicrous like 'American Idol is the best television show ever made,' I just weigh that silliness against how good a person they are and how much I enjoy their company. If I held the extreme foolishness of everyone against them, I'd be a pretty lonely person. And I'd have to find some way to stop talking to myself, too.

QFT, everyone believes something stupid or ignorant, I do, you do, we all do.

Out of curiosity OP how old is your friend? because I used to think like that when I was 16 and thought I knew everything.

I'm still trying to figure out when Obama became Prime Minister of Canada...

Heh. Just felt like throwing the oft-misused statement in there. Being Canadian, I don't get to use it, so why not.

The opinion is held by someone in their thirties, and educated. Which makes it all the more puzzling.

 d-usa wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out when Obama became Prime Minister of Canada...

pfft, its common knowledge that Canada is just a puppet state.

Everyone up there is too distracted with Hockey, the Quebecois trying to secede, and drunk on Maple syrup to notice.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out when Obama became Prime Minister of Canada...

pfft, its common knowledge that Canada is just a puppet state.

Everyone up there is too distracted with Hockey, the Quebecois trying to secede, and on a sugar high from Maple syrup to notice.

Fixed

The people who say this sort of stuff are the same ones who think that it's ok to be disarmed and required to purchase non-items (see: insurance) or be fined by the government.

I'm not sure if it's people being lazy or just stupid.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
"If I have nothing to hide, then you wouldn't get a warrent to do what you are proposing to do... therefore why should I be happy to let you go ahead and do it for no reason?"

Would any given person be happy to subject themselves to search, and potential seizure even if given reason?

No it's just people making shoddy slack ad hominem/no true Scotsman fallacious arguments and dragging the level of debate into the gutter.

The answer is that everyone has something to hide. They might not have done anything illegal, but they've probably masturbated to some really weird gak or got drunk and done something very gross, or once said something very mean about a loved one, or something else that would certainly embarrassing if revealed to the wrong audience.

And the problem is if you let government look where it pleases, then sooner or later they're going to start finding out some of the not-illegal but very embarrassing parts of your life. And then its nothing more than hope that they'll just ignore the embarrassing stuff and never ever use it as leverage for anything else.

 sebster wrote:
The answer is that everyone has something to hide. They might not have done anything illegal, but they've probably masturbated to some really weird gak

Why not both?

Then i guess it'd be ok for some sort of civil/citizen council to have the power to investigate the relationships between governments and corporations/businesses, or perhaps investigate media ownership?

or organized crime syndicates and their connections to governments with illegal drug's.

or also how all these weapons get into the hands of people fighting in the numerous civil wars throughout africa and the middle east?

until that time comes, then no they cannot and should not