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I have played a few games with CSM Bolter marines and was having a lot of trouble with them. They don't kill anything! They always get shot off the board or the other player just assaults them with some guys and now they are tied up for the rest of the game because they only have 1 attack base. I usually run them in rhinos and I use them to assault if I see that they are going to get decimated the next turn with shooting. I realize I need to change my tactics and I came here to look for people who could basically teach me how to play CSM bolter marines from scratch I pretty much play against every army with imperial knights being the exception.

You need to support them better. What's the rest of your list like?

The only models I have are the dark vengence chaos stuff and a sorcerer and 2 rhinos with 20 CSM this is all the chaos stuff when I play higher point games I include a bloodthirster with proxy plague bearers


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I'm getting another box of CSM and another rhino in two days so I have a strong troops base for the future

Give them a pistol and ccw along with the bolter...that helps a bit...

Also, if I run a big blob(20ish), I give them MoS, the sigil of Excess, take a Slaanesh lord w/ outflank and take Fabious and grant them +1 S

No one seems to mess with them? :dunno:

Standard CSM aren't supposed to be very killy; they are your standard objective secured unit and should be trying to do just that; secure objectives.

Ok so If use them to take objectives what other units should I use to support them

Regular CSM are just not very good (imo), as they have poor damage output and poor leadership. To make them viable they need upgrades, and then they quickly rise in price to the point where you might as well take cult marines for Fearless (which is great).

Run them as Plague Marines, units of 7 in a Rhino with 2 Plasma or 2 Melta, and a Nurgle Lord to make them troops. If you have 20 CSM models, I don't think you need to spend money on even more.

The core of your army could look something like this:
Nurgle Lord with stuff, possibly on a bike.
2-3 units of 7 Plague Marines with 2 Special weaps in each unit, in a Rhino

Then you need some damage support, Obliterators are a very solid choice as they are so versatile. Predators can be pretty good, Bikes and Spawn are great too, and make a good escort unit for a Lord on a bike.

What about forge fiends with hades auto cannons? They seem like they would be good at laying down support

Is there something special about 7 plague marines? Or is it just fluffy?

I've been experimenting with 5 marines in rhino with melta and combo melta. Its ~135 points. I sometimes take dirgecaster and dozer blade too. They do pretty well at grabing objectives. And a lot of the time my opponent is busy trying to deal with 10 nurgle spawn and daemon summoning horrors.

What about a defiler?

defilers are unfortunately a bit rubbish. the batlecannon and fllet on the same model means you're paying points for something you won't use every game. AV12 is still a bit weak, and the size of a defiler makes it hard to get into cover.

Maulerfiends are better at close combat, Vindicators and forgefiends are better at ranged attacks.

CSM want to be in multiple small units to get objectives. If you're getting another box I'd run 2 units of 5 and 2 units of 10 in rhinos. that's cheap campers for the home objectives and 2 units to go get more. if you want some firepower from them, put a lascannon in the units of 10 and use plague marines in rhinos to go get forward objectives. small units of obliterators (1-2 tops) with mark o' nurgle will be good for fire support and grabbing more objectives. Chaos spawn are great for harrassing vehicle with rear armour 10.

The only use for the standard unmarked CSM that I have found is as ablative wounds to a killy character. I have been using groups of 8-9 CSM without marks and a meltagun. They go into a landraider with Kharne or Abby and the landraider often gets shrouded or invisible on it from Be'Lakor. It is a pretty good combo.

The real problem with CSM isn't their damage, durability, or even options. It is their leadership. SM TAC squads can be useful in numbers but that is because they will never quite the fight and are in until the last man. This is also why all the cult marines are superior to the CSM units.

The CSM models however make great conversions.

7 Is the number of Grandfather Nurgle. Mark your CSMs, and bring pistols and CCWs. It's just a few points more and it will go a long way. So will an icon. I give my CSM the mark of nurgle to make them tougher, hence they hang in there longer. Also, do bring special weapons if you need higher damage output.

Against the opponent I play most the defilers battle cannon would work well because he like to do devestaer squads behind an aegis

 Alienoid wrote:
Against the opponent I play most the defilers battle cannon would work well because he like to do devestaer squads behind an aegis

The Battle Cannon's AP3 is a waste against units behind defence lines. Better to use things like autocannons against those kinds of targets.

Why is it a waste it's an ordinance weapon so they won't get cover saves/armour saves they just have to fail their iron hand 6+ save

 Alienoid wrote:
Why is it a waste it's an ordinance weapon so they won't get cover saves/armour saves they just have to fail their iron hand 6+ save

1) Ordnance weapons don't ignore cover saves. Barrage weapons can sometimes get round cover because the damage is measured from the direction of the centre of the blast - but the Defiler's battlecannon is not a barrage weapon.

2) Your opponent won't get his Iron Hands 6+ Feel No Pain save because the battlecannon is S8, and therefore causes instant death due to being double their toughness.

Oh sorry I always get those two mixed up I'm guessing that ordinance means he doesn't have to see the target

 Alienoid wrote:
Oh sorry I always get those two mixed up I'm guessing that ordinance means he doesn't have to see the target

Nope. All Ordinance means is he has to Snap Fire his other weapons and rolls two dice for armour penetration picking the highest.

Well, if the list is built around a Sorcerer and 2 squads of CSMs in Rhinos, that suggests this army is playing in games between 500 and 1000 points. It's possible to do a lot more with CSMs at this level, since other armies are going to be small as well.

Since the OP is asking about how to use his CSMs, let's just focus on tactics. From the description, it sounds like the goal is to use them as an assault unit. CSMs can do this just fine, but just rushing them into assault is usually not the way to make things work. In general, the tactics for CSMs with a Rhino go as follows:

1) Drive the Rhinos up the board.

2) Disembark and get in a round of rapid fire shooting with the bolters (since you can't assault the turn you disembark).

3) ...then do your assault.

There are the basic mechanics of using CSMs. They can be made more effective through the use of marks, special weapons, buffs from the Sorcerer, buffs for the aspiring champion, enhancements to the Rhino, complimentary units, and more. First, let's focus on what you can do to the unit itself.

1) Give the CSMs a mark and possibly an icon. Mark of Nurgle makes them tougher, Mark of Slaanesh makes them hit at a higher initiative. If you take MoS, you can also get the Icon of Excess. With MoN, you will have to save fewer times. With the MoS plus IoE, you get feel no pain. Statistically, MoS and IoE gets the edge in taking fewer wounds, and has the added advantage of getting to strike first in cc. You could also do MoK for an extra attack, but (in general) it's better to take fewer wounds than do more attacks.

2) Take special weapons with your CSMs. Flamers are great against hordes, plasma guns are great against vehicles. Each can be a game changer.

3) Not many people buff their aspiring champion, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. I personally like to take a plasma pistol to have the chance for a high-impact shot during that round of shooting. ACs do tend to die during challenges, so I don't really invest in trying to keep them alive there.

4) If you are assaulting, make sure you take the close combat weapon option. You will want to get the extra attack.

With an upgraded squad, you are going to have a unit that is more durable and hopefully more lethal on the tabletop. The next thing you might want to focus on is your Rhinos. They can have a big impact in smaller games when used right.

1) Add weapons to your Rhinos. Chances are, in a low point game, your opponent is not going to waste too many shots trying to kill the transport. Add a havoc launcher for some missile support. Add a flamer or twin linked bolter for added shots. Add a dirge caster to screw with enemies during assaults.

2) When the CSMs are in the Rhino, don't forget they have 2 firing slots. This can let you get off shots with plasma guns while driving up the board.

3) In terms of tactics, think about whether it's better to move flat out with the Rhino or to be able to shoot with it. In lower point games, sometimes it's better to let your opponent move up to you.

4) In terms of tactics, remember that your Rhino can serve as cover for it's occupants. You don't always need to disembark in front of it, and there are often advantages to having it sit between your CSMs and your opponent.

At this point, you should have a tougher CSM squad and a vehicle to move them up the board. Sorcerers can buff these units in various ways. Since the thread is about how to use CSMs, not Sorcerers, I won't go into the details. But realize you can have complimentary units that help your CSMs win. If you have the DV box, you have 2 squads of cultists to go along with your CSMs. Use them. They can be great at soaking up wounds and taking shots away from your main threat.