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I used to like to run a 5 man Tactical Terminator squad with an Assault Cannon, usually with a TDA/SS Librarian, in some of my old lists. I'd either Deep Strike them in or use them to anchor my line and draw fire and discourage assaults. They actually worked pretty well and usually made good kills and soaked up lots of attention. I know that they were not an optimal choice in 6th edition, so I am wondering if terminators are seeing any good use in 7th edition lists.

Does anyone use Tactical or Assault Terminators anymore?

I feel like bringing a squad in on a homing beacon equipped objective grabbing drop pod to support a Tactical Squad or just bully into an opponents flank could be a good way to keep attention off your scoring units.

How would you use Terminators of either flavor in 7th edition? What type of Terminator and tactics would be a threat to your Xeno or Heretic forces? Has 7th edition helped or hurt our over-priced-yet-iconic veterans.

Terminators suck in every form. 200+ Points for something that will either get ripped apart by AP2 or just spamed to death by Lasguns won't cut it. Deep Strike is horrendous and Land Raiders are only ok at best. If you insist on using them, 5x TH/SS Termis in a LRC is probably the best loadout however I still wouldn't recommend them.

While feasible shares the common net thinking about termies it simply isnt true in most games.


You take a squad of termies with appropriate backup and they do just fine.

MSU them and provide other distractions for your opponent to shoot at and they will usually do their job of either tanking stuff your marines cant tank or by putting out more damage than your opponent expects.

10 storm bolter shots and 2 frag missles will utterly ravage a squad of infantry from any horde list and if you swap to krak missles you even hurt marine squads decently.


If your really into the assault cannon, hold them in deep strike and have some locator beacons or teleport homers to prevent scatter. It does pretty good work againgst armor 10 and can even strip a hull point from a flyer on average.

MEQ is the last thing I'd run terminators of any sort at (excepting Deathwing Knights at anything 3+ and CSM). Making the best of a 3+ invul and a thunderhammer, I'd identify the big nasty in the enemy army and throw them at it. Wraithknights, Greater Daemons / Princes, Hive Tyrants, things of that variety. Tough to catch, but when you do, you'll probably win.

That said, grav cents do this better. And at range.

In pure competitive games I would shy away from them; they just are plain too costly for what they bring to the board.

For semi-competitive games I would say DA Deathwing Termies have the edge, simply for their ability to mix/match weapons, arrive on predetermined turn and TL on arrival; you can easily ally a 5-man DW squad with a Termie-Libby (with Prescience) and a cheap 5-man scout squad for sub-500pts.

For friendly games:

IF CT buffs your tactical Termies nicely with CML.
WS for scouting assault termies in a LR
TH/SS Termies led by a Sororitas priest for lolz
The Strikeforce dataslate is a fun gimmick if you wanna field a couple of squads but will eat up a bunch of points.

Terminators...just don't get enough for what they pay.

They don't have double the power of a TAC marine when it comes to firepower.
They are only as durable as two tacticals against basic weapons, and not even that when high-caliber weapons are involved, the only point they get a real edge is when hit by AP3.
They don't do THAT much more in assault, as anything worth spending powerfists on, can usually kill most or all of them before they get to swing.
They don't even get the same millage out of chapter tactics, as most of them apply per model, not per squad-and they got smaller numbers.

And yet they cost about triple then your simple tactical.
There are simply very little cases where terminator do a job that won't be done better by throwing higher number of tactical marines at it, and tactical are not quite amazing at getting things done as we all know.

Even when we come to special weapons department, assault cannons, heavy flamers, while good, do not even offer anything special except getting more mooks killed, and that's not something you get specials for. with the exception of the highly expensive cyclone ML who does offer the ability to ID nid warriors, crisis suits and put pain on 3+ MCs-the specials are nothing but a hindrance.

Terminators need to either have a better defensive value (T5 jumps to mind, as does rerollable armor saves, thought the latter is probably a bit much), be significantly cheaper (bad fluff, they should be special dudes) or pack more of a punch (higher WS and BS could help) in order to work out well.

That's one place chaos actually wins. without ATSKNF, without CT and downgrading the PF into PW seems like a bad trade at first, but the versatility of picking PWs, the ability to be smaller specialized teams, the vastly bigger number of options and the fact rank-and-file "filler bodies" are far cheaper (almost 25% so) means alot for such a high level unit.
ATSKNF does not matter when you got no numbers, if you broke you probably got erased anyway (especially in teams of 3 like chaos can do). CT are nice, but again on such small numbers the effects are minimal as they tend to do per-model work rather then per-squad work. PF are honestly not much better then PW are when you are S4 and combi-bolter is actually just as good as storm bolters. (less effective at 12-24, but more effective at 0-12)

Chaos termies might not have hammernators, but hammernators are made of fail. you pay even more, and you are still just as durable as x2 tactical marines against the majority of weapons in the game. they might not have cyclones, but there cost too much and mismatch range with the rest of the squad anyway (termies want to get up close and personal, not stay away.) and assualt cannon upgrade is simply not giving anything special over basic fire. it hits more and harder, but nothing NEW.

Honestly any upgrade you throw into loyalist terminators, is just sinking further into debt here. no generic durability like MoN, no specialized weaponry via combi-meltas, no high number of attacks by MoK. nothing to make a rank-and-file termi better, just ways to get one-of-five superdude in a team of dead wight.
At least if it was SW the dude could go be team leaders of tacticals and you could throw their unique talents (like the cool weapon dudes) in teams that make good use of it (like cyclones in a LF missile team) and they even do some setups cheaper, and can split their unit to have partial upgrades to save costs (not everyone needs to be a tremi to unlock 1-in-5 termi weapons, bet ya didn't know that!)
Actually, the more I look at it...wolf guard are awesome...if only they could deepstirke they would have been the best terminators no questions asked..

Boomwolf's wall of text is pretty accurate, and our local games support it. I've never seen a dedicated deathwing army win a game, for example, since way back in 3rd.

Termies need help something fierce.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another issue is that "double the survivability against normal armor save weaponry" isn't much of an upgrade. Marines have a 10% fatality rate against bs4 s4. Going down to 5% isn't a particularly large leap.

Eihnlazer wrote:
While feasible shares the common net thinking about termies it simply isnt true in most games.


You take a squad of termies with appropriate backup and they do just fine.

My "common net feeling" has been tested in competitive and friendly games. This is a tactics post and terminators don't do well for their cost.

If they're GKs you'll do well enough, otherwise it's an uphill battle to get your points back.

I love terminators. Terminators are fantastic.

It gives me such a satisfying feeling to fight them with my Daemons list. Seeing the look on my opponents' face when 120 points of Seekers tears his 300 point squad to pieces is something one can only feel when playing against termies.

Eihnlazer wrote:
You take a squad of termies with appropriate backup and they do just fine.

This, above all, is the important bit. Five Terminators dropping in front of the enemy are going to be the target for any AP2 or better weapon, and unless you pop 200+ points if tank with an AC/CML on the drop, you're not getting your money's worth. On the other hand, that same terminator squad coming in with the second wave of a Drop Pod assault on a Homing Beacon for precision, when your opponent is also having to deal with 30-40 other Marines, maybe a Dreadnought or two and some other threatening units (Sternguard, Honour Guard, Ironclads) are going to a) survive a lot longer and b) be able to reach the battle intact and contribute valuable high-concentration power to the rest of your force.

They are far from bad units, but as with anything, there are ways and means to get the most of them.

 Feasible wrote:
Terminators suck in every form. 200+ Points for something that will either get ripped apart by AP2 or just spamed to death by Lasguns won't cut it. Deep Strike is horrendous and Land Raiders are only ok at best. If you insist on using them, 5x TH/SS Termis in a LRC is probably the best loadout however I still wouldn't recommend them.

My Blood Angels SS/TH assault terminators with Corbulo would like to speak with you.

Terminators need to be in CC quickly where they can butcher whatever they're facing. Generally though, if they get charged, it'll be by a unit three or four times their model count, which means they die under weight of attacks. If you get them in a corner and can force the enemy to present themselves in bits and pieces, terminators work well, even tacticals which I'm not a fan of.

If you're already paying for 30-40 marines /w drop-pods and a podding dreadnought or two, why bother investing in terminators at that point, though?

The intended function of terminators (or, rather, what you're "paying for") is there durability, as terminator damage output is pretty poor for their points cost.

People consider termies to be ass because that 30ppm is supposed to grant you a spearhead or disruption unit that uses its amazing durability to break through an enemy's lines or deep-strike in among them and tie up big threats so that the rest of your forces can get to grips without getting shredded.

If you have a plethora of other forces that have already busted the enemy's lines wide open, then what function do terminators serve at that point? Why not just take sternguard or something instead, since they do more damage and are more versatile point for point.

In a way, you can think of it as: if terminators aren't be attacked, they aren't making their points back.

Most good /popular CC units have lots and lots of attacks (seekers, hounds, conscript blobs, wraiths, cultists etc) they just force so many saves while themselves being cheap and expendable that you crush under pure weight of bodies.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If you're already paying for 30-40 marines /w drop-pods and a podding dreadnought or two, why bother investing in terminators at that point, though?

Because you want to use Terminators? That is what the thread is about, after all.

On a more serious note, because apart from mass melta they are one of the best ways to destroy vehicles in one go. They can multi-assault Parking Lots to good effect. With TH/SS they can go up against CC units that would tear the rest of your army to shreds.

I tend to think of them less as a spearhead for an assault and more of a scalpel: when you need a very high concentration of power in one place, Terminators are the way to go, as in terms of per-model durability it's hard to beat TH/SS Termies in-codex, and their damage output against the right targets (tanks, T4 multi-wound infantry, T6 or lower MCs) is also better than most other options.

Unfortunately Terminators are overpriced, that hasn't changed in 7th. They pay too much for a 2+ save. Vs Tactical marines they are less durable and have less ranged offensive potential. If they can reach CC, they are good, but 7th as 6th rewards shooting and Terminators just aren't durable enough.

For example... Comparing resiliency vs small arms fire a Terminator costs 143% that of a Tactical marine for identical durability to Small Arms.

Its a similar story for ranged damage. One stormbolter for the price of 2.8 Bolters, gets much worse in Rapid Fire Range.

The only place Terminators do well is in CC, even then they aren't resilient enough for their cost they bring good Damage output.


Terminators should cost approximately...

25pts for Stormbolter/Powersword
30pts for Stormbolter/Powerfist or Dual Lightning Claws
35pts for Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield

Being as pricey as they are they just aren't' worth it especially as Tacticals got cheaper. CSM Termiantors are better with their base cost, but still pricey. Paladins are good as they have 2 Wounds. Stock Termiantors are just not worth their cost, TH/SS can be and are situational.

Terminators are only good imo if they have TH/SS. Ranged terminators damage output is terrible, and the rest of the SM army fulfills that role better.

I'm sorry, but how does THSS solve the problems when it only increases prices, reduces ranged power, and keeps you at the same durability against most weapons in the game?

Sure, it will be harder to drop you with specialized guns, and you hit far better in CC, but you now have even less bodies around, and basic gun fire still takes you out just as fast, meaning that per point you go down even faster.

You simply wont GET into CC unless you bought a fancy land raider, and by that point you spiked the costs so high it won't matter, as even assuming the enemy has no real counter to it, you will never pay off a squad of THSS termies and a land raider with the two.

Its a specialized killer unit, that can't kill enough.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I'm sorry, but how does THSS solve the problems when it only increases prices, reduces ranged power, and keeps you at the same durability against most weapons in the game?

It has been cited several times in this thread that AP2 is the big weakness of Terminators, so how is making them far more survivable against it a bad thing? It can't work both ways, if AP2 is a weakness (and it is) then countering it with much better defence against it is a solution.

Sure, it will be harder to drop you with specialized guns, and you hit far better in CC, but you now have even less bodies around, and basic gun fire still takes you out just as fast, meaning that per point you go down even faster.

I think the idea that paying for an offensive upgrade but still dying the same is detrimental is something of a double standard. The same is true of giving a Tactical Marine a Plasmagun or a Lascannon, but no one bats an eyelid at that. Terminators with TH/SS cost only a little more in the grand scheme of things, far less than the cost of those two examples, and provides both an increase in durability against what has been identified as a major weakness and a boost to killing power (and concussive is not to be overlooked).

You simply wont GET into CC unless you bought a fancy land raider, and by that point you spiked the costs so high it won't matter, as even assuming the enemy has no real counter to it, you will never pay off a squad of THSS termies and a land raider with the two.

Its a specialized killer unit, that can't kill enough.

This is incorrect, I think. You won't get into CC if you just throw them down in front of the enemy in the open, but as, like I suggested above, they're part of a mass drop or a Drop Pod assault, then they will survive to make it in. Also, against tanks, they can multi-assault parking lots with great results, and easily be worth the cost. With the 3++, they are also the best in-codex option for tying up AP2 CC units like Lychguard/Wraithblades/Wraiths/MCs ect.

Mine have been used once since I bought them, without a LR they are just too damn slow to get up the board to make a difference unless I deep strike them and even with 2+5++ I don't want them surrounded by Firewarriors in rapid fire range without being able to assault for a turn.

Nice models, good fluff, bad crunch.

TH/SS Termies get a nice bonus if you join them with a GK Libby with Hammerhand and the +invul power

 BoomWolf wrote:
I'm sorry, but how does THSS solve the problems when it only increases prices, reduces ranged power, and keeps you at the same durability against most weapons in the game?

Sure, it will be harder to drop you with specialized guns, and you hit far better in CC, but you now have even less bodies around, and basic gun fire still takes you out just as fast, meaning that per point you go down even faster.

You simply wont GET into CC unless you bought a fancy land raider, and by that point you spiked the costs so high it won't matter, as even assuming the enemy has no real counter to it, you will never pay off a squad of THSS termies and a land raider with the two.

Its a specialized killer unit, that can't kill enough.

Nobody here is saying that terminators are a competitive choice. Saying that they lack serious killing potential and are over-costed is wasted breath (typing?), as everyone already knows this.

However, if you do want to use them in a list, then I would advocate using them with TH/SS. Between the two options of shooting and melee, terminators are decidedly better at melee, the TH/SS further enhance this capability, and let them go toe-to-toe with those tough units and models that regular terminators simply can't win against.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly about landraiders being a waste of points. I play DW and OS landraiders are certainly worth their value.

They can be quite useful as back field harassers and objective contestors. If were wish listing though, I would easily find them adequately priced if they were t5 and had relentless.

They do have Relentless, and T5 would be nice. DA Deathwing Knights can get T5 if in base-to-base and it does wonders for their resistance to small arms.

Do they? There's no mention of it in the sm book, unless I'm blind.

Terminator Armour confers Relentless to the wearer. It's in the Armour section of the Wargear chapter.

as a tau and ork player i almost never have issues with any form of a terminator barring ridiculous luck on the defense rolls.

The ones sporting Autocannons or Thunderhammers are the only ones that even draw my attention from the start of the game, and theyre not that hard to kill. Weight of fire ftw.

Only reason i use MANz, which are basically crappy termies, is because i can field a minimal force in a trukk thats durable enough to either draw a ton of fire, or they reach something and kick its ass. Terminators dont really have that option without getting really expensive. 170pts in new codex for 3 MANz in a trukk with ram, one MAN has a Killsaw and BP. If termies had that option, i think they'd be more viable.

Dunno whether to blame myself or the layout. Maybe a bit of both. Thanks.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 Feasible wrote:
Terminators suck in every form. 200+ Points for something that will either get ripped apart by AP2 or just spamed to death by Lasguns won't cut it. Deep Strike is horrendous and Land Raiders are only ok at best. If you insist on using them, 5x TH/SS Termis in a LRC is probably the best loadout however I still wouldn't recommend them.

My Blood Angels SS/TH assault terminators with Corbulo would like to speak with you.

Terminators need to be in CC quickly where they can butcher whatever they're facing. Generally though, if they get charged, it'll be by a unit three or four times their model count, which means they die under weight of attacks. If you get them in a corner and can force the enemy to present themselves in bits and pieces, terminators work well, even tacticals which I'm not a fan of.

I'm sure your Terminators would like a word with me but they wouldn't ever be able to get within speaking range

 Frankenberry wrote:

 Feasible wrote:
Terminators suck in every form. 200+ Points for something that will either get ripped apart by AP2 or just spamed to death by Lasguns won't cut it. Deep Strike is horrendous and Land Raiders are only ok at best. If you insist on using them, 5x TH/SS Termis in a LRC is probably the best loadout however I still wouldn't recommend them.

My Blood Angels SS/TH assault terminators with Corbulo would like to speak with you.

Terminators need to be in CC quickly where they can butcher whatever they're facing. Generally though, if they get charged, it'll be by a unit three or four times their model count, which means they die under weight of attacks. If you get them in a corner and can force the enemy to present themselves in bits and pieces, terminators work well, even tacticals which I'm not a fan of.

The problem with this, really, is the the good part of this unit is Corbulo, not the terminators. Corbulo could stand in front of Sternguard, Vanguards, Mephiston, in the midst of a ton of Assault marines, even freakin' Death Company...it doesn't matter. The power is him, not the overpriced goofs he's shielding.