Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I find close combat is where terminators do reasonably.

CSM, dark angels, and grey knights are the best in that area. Stay away from dreadnoughts and big daemons though!

crimson_caesar wrote:
I find close combat is where terminators do reasonably.

CSM, dark angels, and grey knights are the best in that area. Stay away from dreadnoughts and big daemons though!

Thats fair, however no competent opponent will let you get there.

Gotta do a Land Raider. You have no choice.

You can try DS, DP, etc, but you will die. Land Raider. Works in some lists.

I play a TDA heavy GK Ghostwing, with 27 GKs in TDA. Still works fine, although runny them with Intercepters and NDKs just makes them work that much better.

SJ

They cost reasonable. The problem is you pay for ccw that ain't gona be used. If they were like chaos termies, they'd be much more usable. But on the other hand, don't forget that marine codex allready has lots of free buffs over csm.
And regular termies are quite vulnerable to ap1-2 which is present in almost any list. And hammernators are pure mellee guyz which sucks unless you're fast enough. They pack punch but it's a problem to get them to where they're needed the most.

I think the problem is a single guardsman only needs to roll a 4 up then a 5 up to hit and wound a terminator.

Then it only takes the terminator to roll a 1 and its goodbye. Its amazing how often those 1s come up.

I think they need 2 wounds and a small points increase to make them viable yet fair.

^ This. I'd use them if they got this. 50 pts a piece for Assault Termis and 40 for Tac Termis. Then make LRs a Dedicated Transport.

 Paradigm wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I'm sorry, but how does THSS solve the problems when it only increases prices, reduces ranged power, and keeps you at the same durability against most weapons in the game?

It has been cited several times in this thread that AP2 is the big weakness of Terminators, so how is making them far more survivable against it a bad thing? It can't work both ways, if AP2 is a weakness (and it is) then countering it with much better defence against it is a solution.

Because that's an illusion. AP2 is not the greatest threat to terminators, its small arms fire.
The 2+ is only double the defense of a 3+ against it, while it seems alot on paper, its actually not because your numbers are less then half. for every terminator you got compared to a tactical-you LOSE on defense against the majority of guns in the game. the only level where terminators last longer per point then marines is Ap3. that's not a common profile, in fact its far less common then AP2 and 1. some armies don't even HAVE any ranged ap3, and hardly any cc ap3 in power swords.

Even when ap2 is applied, you still got invuls and cover involved more often then not so the two has practically the same 5+ save, leaving you in the place of "triple cost, same durability" point who is on paper worse-but then you count the fact that for every ap2 shot you could probably land 4 or more light arms fire type shots. its just a more efficient way of killing them sometimes, and its a more commonly available one, one that you arguably have to take anyway (some like FE can avoid it, but most armies just need to pack them, either in troops for scoring, its base stratagy, or tac-on guns to other units (with marines example, most squards are stuck with mostly bolters!)

You can table terminators armies with no ap2 at all. because while its effective per-gun, its not that much better per-point. ap2 costs alot, and the terminator body count is low anyway.
Yes, its triple the killpower over no ap values, or lesser ones (per same strength shot) but at least double the cost, sometimes more. the costs to kill you better do not match the costs you paid to get that extra defense from the firstplace.
Terminators are, per point, for fragile then marines. nearly always.

So you paid for the fancy 3++ and now you take less damage from AP1 and 2. not alot though as your price also increase, and you already had some level of invul that game some level of protection.
But small arms fire? they are still as lethal per model, and you have even less models around so they are even more lethal per point.
And there is ALOT of small arms fire around.

Sure, it will be harder to drop you with specialized guns, and you hit far better in CC, but you now have even less bodies around, and basic gun fire still takes you out just as fast, meaning that per point you go down even faster.

I think the idea that paying for an offensive upgrade but still dying the same is detrimental is something of a double standard. The same is true of giving a Tactical Marine a Plasmagun or a Lascannon, but no one bats an eyelid at that. Terminators with TH/SS cost only a little more in the grand scheme of things, far less than the cost of those two examples, and provides both an increase in durability against what has been identified as a major weakness and a boost to killing power (and concussive is not to be overlooked).

But the point is that the offensive upgrade is ALSO not having the nececery increase to be worthwhile.
You have 300% the pricetag, with 200% the defense and 150% the offense.
Its not even a tune-up for one direction or the other, you lose out on both aspects, and to make it worse don't get any meaningful utility.
Your "new toys" don't kill anything the base guys cant kill as well or nearly as well for cheaper, and the only utility power of terminators, deepstike, is totally null in the army of the drop pods, as you can technically give any infantry unit the ability to "deep strike" for a small pricetag.
Its not like tau "terminators" the crisis suits that have the utility powers to deepstrike and JSJ-two things tau infantry simply cant do. and to top it off, they got gun that the infantry cant even compete with. the infantry don't have anti-tank of their own, or ap2 of their own, or high strength of their own (krootox excused). there is a REASON for them, its not a +1 fire warrior, its a whole other unit. a terminator IS a +1 space marine, but he does not get anything done better point-wise, at least not for codex marines. other factions at least get some utility paths from them (CSM and SW shine here, deathwing also got their things)

You simply wont GET into CC unless you bought a fancy land raider, and by that point you spiked the costs so high it won't matter, as even assuming the enemy has no real counter to it, you will never pay off a squad of THSS termies and a land raider with the two.

Its a specialized killer unit, that can't kill enough.

This is incorrect, I think. You won't get into CC if you just throw them down in front of the enemy in the open, but as, like I suggested above, they're part of a mass drop or a Drop Pod assault, then they will survive to make it in. Also, against tanks, they can multi-assault parking lots with great results, and easily be worth the cost. With the 3++, they are also the best in-codex option for tying up AP2 CC units like Lychguard/Wraithblades/Wraiths/MCs ect.

Would you trade 6"of storm bolter range for AP4?
Would you trade the invul for a jump pack?
See Blood Angels.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Its the fact you WILL assault, and it will win you nothing. you just lack the ability to run down enough enemies in order to make up the pricetag.
They cost so much, that even if they do tie an MC, and if they take him down-you still didn't meet the pricetag. you probably didn't even get close. a single MC does not compete in price.
Lychguard, wraithblades? not exacly top-notch units to begin with, they suffer from the very same problems terminators do just from different perspectives.
Wraiths...I'm not going to go into it, but they are far superior to terminators for many reasons, with utility and speed shining there-they got many abilities nothing or nearly nothing in the game replicates. terminators do not.

You're right, they won't run down enemies. They are unlikely to kill a unit equal to the points you paid. But the game is about more than that. Sternguard are the only in-codex unit that can bust tanks as easily, if loaded with combi-meltas. Even then, they lack the ability to take on more than one target, or do it more than once. And even if the Carnifex or Riptide or Ctan they tie up isn't worth the 225 points paid in cost-for-cost, the fact that it will be several turns before that MC can be doing damage to the rest of your army is more than worth that. That's the thing that Terminators can do better than anything in the codex (barring Legion of the Damned, but they're not hitting back half as hard as Terminators)

Wraiths may be better than Terminators, I'm not disputing that, but I'd rather those Rending Attacks on on guys with 3++ than guys without them, and if I'm fighting past their 3++ myself, I want to be doing it with a weapon that will cause them Instant Death, essentially killing them twice as fast. Lychguard and Wraithblades may not be top-tier competitive, but that doesn't mean no one plays them, and if you are hacing trouble with them, THSS Terminators provide one of the best solutions.

Anything done by codex terminators, is better done by codex tacticals. a unit that is considered low value.

Not at all. Can Tacticals bust tanks as fast? Can they tie up MCs/AP2 units? Can they ID anything less than T4? No.

They cost alot. they provide no notable defense, no notable offense and no notable utility-what IS going for them?

See above.

Compare to sternguard? low as hell defensive power, but high offensive power and utility power and high tuning potential. THAT is what proper tuning is all about, you pay a lot of points, but get something in return you didn't have otherwise, a lot of things in fact.

Terminators do offer similar things, though. Better defence for when you do need it. Better staying power. Better CC potential. Comparing a unit that specialises in shooting and one that exists only for CC is somewhat irrelevant.

Compare to chaos terminators? higher durability levers (per point), better utility, equivilant offense and far more options and tuning potential.
SW and DA terminators? not much different in terms or offense and defense, but they got some utility going for them. (split in squads, turn 1 DS, etc)

I agree C:SM Terminators are not as good as DA or SW ones, but you'll note that for the same equipment (and therefore the same role), those codexes pay more for the privilege. CSM ones seem unfortunately to be relegated to suicide melta squads in much the same way as Sternguard, or used in roles very similar to those of SM Terminators but without the benefit of Storm Shields.

Codex terminators are bad, there is no going around it. there is no way to avoid it, there is no reason to invest in them.

Other than the obvious reason of liking the models, or the background, or simply accepting that not every unit that you take has to be the best at what it does. I agree that in some roles, Terminators are outclassed, but that doesn't relegate them to being useless when there are still roles they can perform.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Would you trade 6"of storm bolter range for AP4?
Would you trade the invul for a jump pack?
See Blood Angels.

Give me the option to take more than 5 in a squad, and hell yes. The 5-model cap is what keeps Sanguinary Guard of limited use.

The problem is that the advantages you pointed out are only true per model, not per point. and this game works on points.

They do not "bust tanks" because they hardly ever reach tanks. tanks are busted by anti-tank guns, not by hammer blows. a drop pod with a melta dude going for the rear is more effective to bust said tank.
They do not ID anything up to T9 (no clue how you got that) they ID anything up to T4. the power fists do it too (same effect on them wraiths, you are hitting on I1 anyway)

Once you count them as points, they fail horrible at every job.
Tying up a cheaper unit then you is simply an absurd strategy, as it only leaves you at a bigger disadvantage outside of said sticky combat. you effectively fighting a game with a penalty in points now, and how did you even catch up to said riptide/c'tan or carni unless he wants to be there? they moves faster then you if you don't have a raider-and at that point you really spun out of hand here on pricetags.


As for simply liking the models and such-while a valid reason to use units in game, it has nothing to do with tactics.
Facts are, terminators are a mistake tactic wise, and taking them is purely a flavor choice, much like my own stealth suits.
Some units are just bad in a regular game, there is no avoiding it. terminators are mathematically bad at every possible scenario except against AP3 saturation, and that's not exactly common.

 BoomWolf wrote:

They do not "bust tanks" because they hardly ever reach tanks. tanks are busted by anti-tank guns, not by hammer blows. a drop pod with a melta dude going for the rear is more effective to bust said tank.

A meltagun can kill one tank, a TH/SS squad can kill 2 with ease and a multi-assault. And as I've outlined several times, there are ways to get them into combat with those tanks if you play with a degree of tactical skill rather than just dropping them alone in front of the whole enemy army.

They do not ID anything up to T9 (no clue how you got that) they ID anything up to T4. the power fists do it too (same effect on them wraiths, you are hitting on I1 anyway)

Oops, that was a typo on my part. Fixed now. Power Fists do it, but face far more issues surviving against hard targets (against Rending Wraiths/other AP2 attacks, they go down twice as fast)

Once you count them as points, they fail horrible at every job.
Tying up a cheaper unit then you is simply an absurd strategy, as it only leaves you at a bigger disadvantage outside of said sticky combat. you effectively fighting a game with a penalty in points now, and how did you even catch up to said riptide/c'tan or carni unless he wants to be there? they moves faster then you if you don't have a raider-and at that point you really spun out of hand here on pricetags.

It's not absurd, as I say it' about more than just points, and again, I'd rather have those MCs struggling to kill Terminators than blasting holes in the rest of my units that are focusing on defeating the weaker units in the enemy army.

As for simply liking the models and such-while a valid reason to use units in game, it has nothing to do with tactics.
Facts are, terminators are a mistake tactic wise, and taking them is purely a flavor choice, much like my own stealth suits.
Some units are just bad in a regular game, there is no avoiding it. terminators are mathematically bad at every possible scenario except against AP3 saturation, and that's not exactly common.

Again, there is a difference between 'not as good as other options' and 'beyond useless, you'd be better playing 200 points down'. This thread is about how to use Terminators, so I suggest ways in which they can be used. Simply saying 'don't take them.' is not really helpful if people asking questions/reading this wants to use Terminators (and they wouldn't be asking/reading it if they didn't}. While a lot of what you're saying may be useful and valid, there are degrees beyond 'use them' and 'don't'. I'm not suggesting you take them to a Grand Tournament, but for games at a club or store they can be useful.

It might just be a difference in outlook; to me, tactics is about getting the best out of a given unit that you want to use, rather than choosing the unit that does the job best (unless that is the focus of the thread, of course). Every unit in the game has a role and a purpose, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

A 10 pt decrease across the board would make Tactical Terminators ~30 pts and TH/SS Terminators ~35 pts. That's about 2.5x as much as a Tactical Marine...and you're getting about that increase in power.

IMO there's no need to change the rules, just adjust the points a bit. 5 or 10 pt decrease would be fine.

The Warlord of my CSM army is a Chaos Terminator Lord with MoS and a LC/CF combo. His retinue conists of 5 Chaos Terminators with 1 LC each. Depending on the list and points limit I sometimes add MoS and Icon of Excess to them.

Last time I played CSM + DE against my Tyranids friend. I dropped the Terminator squad (w/ MoS and Icon this game) in his deployment zone Turn 2 and killed a Venomthrope with the Combi-Bolter salvo, which meant that the bunch of TMCs standing in the forest nearby suddenly had a 5+ cover rather than the ridiculous 3+. When it was his turn, a Dakka Flyrant, an Exocrine, 2 Zoanthropes and 2 Dakkafexes unleashed a barrage at the Terminators. 2 Chaos Termies and the Lord with 1 Wound survived.

However, not only did the entire barrage fail to kill all the Terminators, none of those attacks targeted some of my cardboard-armour Raiders or the Predators that were soon going to be in range. With the reduced cover save I was able to kill a healthy Tervigon and decimate the large squads of Termagants by proxy, then the Terminators captured Objective 3. Since my friend's army began falling apart, I was able to secure a decisive victory, and the Lord, the sole survivor of the squad at the end, managed to kill a Zoanthrope in CC and got me Linebreaker.

I think that was the first time I used the Terminators like I should - a durable distraction. They are not an optimal choice, but they aren't useless either.

Personally I would like to see DA and SM terminators cost 35 points each. (Fearless terminators should be a chapter tactic for DA, and shouldn't cost extra points).
The squad should be able to take 2 heavy weapons per 5 models and all the heavy weapons should receive a 5 points decrease in price, as you are already paying a premium in cost for the terminators themselves.

This way a tactical terminator squad will cost slightly less than before, but have an extra heavy weapon to make up for their poor shooting.

5 terminators with 2 CML costing 215 points would make them much more viable when compared to tac marines.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Personally I would like to see DA and SM terminators cost 35 points each. (Fearless terminators should be a chapter tactic for DA, and shouldn't cost extra points).
The squad should be able to take 2 heavy weapons per 5 models and all the heavy weapons should receive a 5 points decrease in price, as you are already paying a premium in cost for the terminators themselves.

This way a tactical terminator squad will cost slightly less than before, but have an extra heavy weapon to make up for their poor shooting.

5 terminators with 2 CML costing 215 points would make them much more viable when compared to tac marines.

Indeed, tactical Termies are heavily overpriced.

Volume of fire or high strength AP kills them easily.

 Paradigm wrote:
[
It might just be a difference in outlook; to me, tactics is about getting the best out of a given unit that you want to use, rather than choosing the unit that does the job best (unless that is the focus of the thread, of course). Every unit in the game has a role and a purpose, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

Have you met the Pyrovore?

On topic, as someone else has mentioned the Strikeforce ultra makes Terminators atleast play like they should. No more survivable, but the assault perk (which is reusable) and the DS perk make them feel like elite shock units.

I'm sure the Pyrovore offers something to the army, but having no idea what it does, I can't suggest anything

What exactly does the Strikeforce Ultra Dataslate give them? I've not yet seen it discussed on here, and this thread seems a good a place as any.

I deep strike units of three and combi kill things to death.

The only terminators I would ever field on mass are Deathshroud ones. Mostly because they have two wounds, which is something all terminators should have. Maybe then they would be worth their points.

Strikeforce Ultra allows deep striking termies to run then shoot. Assault termies exiting a LR(C,R) gain HoW on that turn.

Terminators - particularly Tactical Termies - are simply a victim of 15 years of power creep. Everything else has got cheaper and/or better, they stay the same. 230pt Termie squad shoots at the Ork Mob, kills maybe 5 Boyz (less if the mob has Painboy). Rest 25 Boyz will easily wipe them out in shooting & assault next turn. Yee haw, most dreaded elite unit in the galaxy was easily killed by common foot infantry.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Strikeforce Ultra allows deep striking termies to run then shoot. Assault termies exiting a LR(C,R) gain HoW on that turn.

The shooting is at full BS. The Assaults get the HoW everytime they charge out of the LRC/LRR. This the Hammerfall Formation. The Skyspear formation is similiar but uses a Stormraven instead of a LR, and adds a Dreadnaught to the Assault terminators. I don't see this one getting as much play as entering the SR in to hover mode to use the Assault Ramp is just asking for trouble. The full Strike Force Ultra has all of the above, plus reserves rolls start on turn one.

Backfire wrote:
Terminators - particularly Tactical Termies - are simply a victim of 15 years of power creep. Everything else has got cheaper and/or better, they stay the same. 230pt Termie squad shoots at the Ork Mob, kills maybe 5 Boyz (less if the mob has Painboy). Rest 25 Boyz will easily wipe them out in shooting & assault next turn. Yee haw, most dreaded elite unit in the galaxy was easily killed by common foot infantry.

Well to be fair, they were out numbered 6 to 1 and operating unsupported. I'd also like to see the actual math on this one, I doubt it's a lopsided as portrayed.

Jefffar wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Terminators - particularly Tactical Termies - are simply a victim of 15 years of power creep. Everything else has got cheaper and/or better, they stay the same. 230pt Termie squad shoots at the Ork Mob, kills maybe 5 Boyz (less if the mob has Painboy). Rest 25 Boyz will easily wipe them out in shooting & assault next turn. Yee haw, most dreaded elite unit in the galaxy was easily killed by common foot infantry.

Well to be fair, they were out numbered 6 to 1 and operating unsupported. I'd also like to see the actual math on this one, I doubt it's a lopsided as portrayed.

Being outnumbered 6:1 and unsupported is irrelevant when the terminators still cost more points than the orks.

The maths really would be stacked against the terminators if the orks manage to get to combat. This is pitting one of the least cost efficient choices in the game against one of the most.
The only problem for this analogy now is that the terminators might actually win if the orks fail a morale test, whereas before the new codex it was impossible.

Backfire wrote:
Terminators - particularly Tactical Termies - are simply a victim of 15 years of power creep. Everything else has got cheaper and/or better, they stay the same. 230pt Termie squad shoots at the Ork Mob, kills maybe 5 Boyz (less if the mob has Painboy). Rest 25 Boyz will easily wipe them out in shooting & assault next turn. Yee haw, most dreaded elite unit in the galaxy was easily killed by common foot infantry.

In 3 ed orkses had choppaz that reduced armor saves to 4+. So, termies were a waste in that very case either. However, your point is right on the whole. Everything else just got better and cheaper.

barnowl wrote:

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Strikeforce Ultra allows deep striking termies to run then shoot. Assault termies exiting a LR(C,R) gain HoW on that turn.

The shooting is at full BS. The Assaults get the HoW everytime they charge out of the LRC/LRR. This the Hammerfall Formation. The Skyspear formation is similiar but uses a Stormraven instead of a LR, and adds a Dreadnaught to the Assault terminators. I don't see this one getting as much play as entering the SR in to hover mode to use the Assault Ramp is just asking for trouble. The full Strike Force Ultra has all of the above, plus reserves rolls start on turn one.

Sounds pretty cool, actually. The reserve bonus makes them pseudo-Deathwing with good rolls, the Shoot+Run cancels out the weakness to blasts on the drop, and the extra HOW might be nice too, at least allowing some damage before I1.

 koooaei wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Terminators - particularly Tactical Termies - are simply a victim of 15 years of power creep. Everything else has got cheaper and/or better, they stay the same. 230pt Termie squad shoots at the Ork Mob, kills maybe 5 Boyz (less if the mob has Painboy). Rest 25 Boyz will easily wipe them out in shooting & assault next turn. Yee haw, most dreaded elite unit in the galaxy was easily killed by common foot infantry.

In 3 ed orkses had choppaz that reduced armor saves to 4+. So, termies were a waste in that very case either. However, your point is right on the whole. Everything else just got better and cheaper.

And at the start of 3rd, they didn’t even have the 5++.

Back in 3rd, the stormbolter meant something. But rapid fire has gotten better in every single edition but the last one. So while the stats of the regular and storm bolter have remained the same, the gap between them has widened significantly. In 3rd rapid firing, if you stood still you got 2 shots at 12", or one at 24”. If you moved, you got one shot at 12”. Assault remains the same as it is today.

Tactical terminators used to represent the ability to project sold, long range, bolter fire on the move. These days, every tactical squad can do that. The only difference between the guns is an extra shot in the 12-24” band and the option to assault. Back in the day, it let you effectively shoot volumes of fire on the move, and at range while moving. Something the normal bolter lacked.

 Paradigm wrote:
Again, there is a difference between 'not as good as other options' and 'beyond useless, you'd be better playing 200 points down'. This thread is about how to use Terminators, so I suggest ways in which they can be used. Simply saying 'don't take them.' is not really helpful if people asking questions/reading this wants to use Terminators (and they wouldn't be asking/reading it if they didn't}. While a lot of what you're saying may be useful and valid, there are degrees beyond 'use them' and 'don't'. I'm not suggesting you take them to a Grand Tournament, but for games at a club or store they can be useful.

It might just be a difference in outlook; to me, tactics is about getting the best out of a given unit that you want to use, rather than choosing the unit that does the job best (unless that is the focus of the thread, of course). Every unit in the game has a role and a purpose, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

I understand that's what you WANT, but thays just not how the game WORKS.
Codex terminators are, by definition, a mistake.
Simply because they are almost always inferior to tactical.
Even other "bad units" (looking at tau again as its my army) like vespid and stealth suits at least do something above your everyday troopers. but codex terminators under their current variation does not.

If you really want terminators in your loyalist army, you should use an army with one of the superior breeds or ally them in.
GK-same cost, vastly superior equipment, and troops. best when looking for allied terminators as they come with a tiny tax of 1 inqusitor (who in himself aint bad)
SW-cheaper, has some tactical uses as pack leaders and have more versatility, also support hybrid teams that allow otherwise impossible combos. not great allies though, only as your actual army.
DA-slightly more expensive, but feature powerful versatile options and some powerful tactical abilities. can be made troops too, but only when they are your main force. so allied tax is high.

Chaos, once again, does not face this problem. his terminators ARE good.

Pledge yourself to the the dark gods. Enjoy cheap terminators. ENJOY THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Also enjoy loosing ATSKNF.

Honestly though if you're using loyalists terminators, you need to commit. Go assault terminators with TH and SS and give them a LR to get into the thick of combat. Half measures don't work with them. Either commit to it or don't go at all.