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A story with a Space Marine for a protagonist where there's still moral ambiguity.

We have evil protagonists in plenty of other stories. Evil Night Lords, evil Orks, evil Dark Eldar, and so-on. Its possible to have a character be the protagonist but not necessarily a good guy.

Now, a Space Marine is a genetically modified brainwashed soldier who will murder you in the service of a horrible dictatorship. They will not take you prisoner. They will not negotiate. Instead, they were tear you to pieces with bolter fire and reduce your world to rubble. They care about their God Emperor and their Imperium, but to them you're nothing at all.

There are a lot of cool ideas that a story about Space Marines could explore. They're incredibly powerful, but that power comes at a steep price, and they never wanted it to begin with. They claim to fight for mankind, but through genetic engineering they've been forced to sacrifice their own humanity. Their organs are harvested from their dead comrades. There's a lot of interesting ground to cover with loyalist Marines. Even a "i love rowboat gullyman" Ultramarine could be a very interesting character. They're relatable because they used to be human, but they're fascinating because they're not anymore.

Instead, all Space Marine stories basically have the Space Marine as a regular cardboard cut out good guy. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, whatever. They all get to spend their time rescuing civilians and cutting down faceless enemies. Loyalist characters aren't allowed to have internal conflict or character development for some reason. Only Khaosss is allowed to have feelings. Sure, the Imperium is oppressive and Space Marines are deeply indoctrinated - but they're still supposed to be people.

All factions are evil to one degree or another. Except maybe the Imperial Guard on a case by case basis. Yeah, I agree, they should make more books that make the Imperium's finest look evil.

I certainly would not mind some space marine stories were they are portrayed as the bad guys, but they would also have to tone down the stupid amount of plot armor they typically have. What I really want BL to do is to make more stories from the xenos's view point. For example a story from a necron overlord's view as its becomes consumed with the destroyer curse or from a Tau commander view as he or she commands a desperate defense against Dark Eldar invaders. Not every story has to have humans as the protagonist, there is so much potential for interesting xenos stories, yet BL just keeps doing SM and IG stories.

You should read the Eldar/Dark Eldar "Path of" books. Very good stories.

And the Farseer in Path of the Seer is pretty badass, once she gets past her moody teenager phase. Manfighting Commissars and Librarians and then melting their brains ftw.

novels from an alien PVO are proably hard because well.. they're alien.

that said moving back to the original topic if the OP hasn't read the novel "the Emperor's gift" I reccomend it. it's pretty close to what he's asking for.

I found Path of the Warrior unreadable. Korlandril is just such a gak character that it didn't hold my attention at all, even though the Striking Scorpions are my favourite Eldar Aspect ever.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I found Path of the Warrior unreadable. Korlandril is just such a gak character that it didn't hold my attention at all, even though the Striking Scorpions are my favourite Eldar Aspect ever.

You should have keep on reading. Korlandril is a very ennoying character and he gets even worst in the second and third book, when you see the point of view of his two friends. Ironnically, Korlandril still surpasse many other characters in Black Library simply because he has is own personnality and even more rarely weaknesses. More seriously, read wathever floats your boat. On the topic of what should Black Library should produce, I would say more story about xenos, more story about neglected imperial institutions (arbitres, sisters, etc.) and story about civilians.

Lord of the night springs to my mind...

Read the book Commisar, there you will find very few if any "good" Imperial personalities, the fact that they are for the most part Vostyrian even makes it much better with some of the plot twists.

Try The Emperor's Gift

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I found Path of the Warrior unreadable. Korlandril is just such a gak character that it didn't hold my attention at all, even though the Striking Scorpions are my favourite Eldar Aspect ever.

Yeah, Korlandril was a whiny SOB, and while Thirianna was also fairly whiny, she was at least better than Korlandril and I pretty much felt bad for her having to even live near Korlandril. Still good characters however, the Path of the Eldar characters were fairly fleshed out and believable, although I certainly didn't like several of them and considered them unlikable donkey-caves. Although Aradryan at least had some redeeming qualities.

Also, I wish ADB would write an Eldar series. He'd be good for the job, so long as he doesn't nerf the gak out of another Phoenix Lord.

Master of Sanctity by Gav Thorpe shows plenty of moral ambiguity for the Dark Angels and the dynamic between Asmodai and Sapphon shows a great deal of conflict caused by wildly differing personalities. Ideally, reading all of the Dark Angels novels written by Gav would be best as they are all well crafted stories with interesting characters.

I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

I don't know why I'd never thought of this but it's a really good idea.

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

There is a trilogy by Sandy Mitchell covering the Arbites.

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

I'd just like a book detailing the normal life of an Astartes while at the Chapter Monastery and not in combat, maybe an older veteran now serving largely as a scholar and writing down his thoughts into a novel to be distributed locally.

A minor Necron Lord's rise to dominance of a Great Dynasty against the back drop of continuous war against primitive Humans, perfidious Eldar, savage Orks and competing internal factions. With more looks at Necrontyr culture and the Necron culture it has become and fantastic ancient wonders unleashed for a time on the modern galaxy.

 Psienesis wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

There is a trilogy by Sandy Mitchell covering the Arbites.

Is there?

I know about Matthew Farrer's Arbites books, but not anything by Mitchell.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

I'd just like a book detailing the normal life of an Astartes while at the Chapter Monastery and not in combat, maybe an older veteran now serving largely as a scholar and writing down his thoughts into a novel to be distributed locally.

What would the conflict be?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

There is a trilogy by Sandy Mitchell covering the Arbites.

Is there?

I know about Matthew Farrer's Arbites books, but not anything by Mitchell.

Huh... for some reason, I thought those were by Mitchell, but I guess not.

A book where a naked Space Marine has to fight in the Dark Eldar's gladiator pits.

Yeah. That'd be good. Mm.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A book where a naked Space Marine has to fight in the Dark Eldar's gladiator pits.

Yeah. That'd be good. Mm.

Yep. Nothing says Power Fantasy like the super-human warrior girding his loins, because he's got no armour to hold them in place.

Commoragh. Where men are REAL men, women are REAL women, and fuzzy little green-eyed insects are REAL fuzzy little green-eyed insects.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A book where a naked Space Marine has to fight in the Dark Eldar's gladiator pits.

Yeah. That'd be good. Mm.

Pretty sure that book's called the second Tome of Fire novel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

I'd just like a book detailing the normal life of an Astartes while at the Chapter Monastery and not in combat, maybe an older veteran now serving largely as a scholar and writing down his thoughts into a novel to be distributed locally.

What would the conflict be?

You don't need a conflict besides an occasional flashback while writing memoirs.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A book where a naked Space Marine has to fight in the Dark Eldar's gladiator pits.

Yeah. That'd be good. Mm.

Pretty sure that book's called the second Tome of Fire novel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

I'd just like a book detailing the normal life of an Astartes while at the Chapter Monastery and not in combat, maybe an older veteran now serving largely as a scholar and writing down his thoughts into a novel to be distributed locally.

What would the conflict be?

You don't need a conflict besides an occasional flashback while writing memoirs.

Actually, a novel without a conflict is traditionally known as, "unreadable and unpublishable".

Also, would the story be the memoirs, or would it be about him retiring and writing his memoirs?

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A book where a naked Space Marine has to fight in the Dark Eldar's gladiator pits.

Yeah. That'd be good. Mm.

Pretty sure that book's called the second Tome of Fire novel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

I'd just like a book detailing the normal life of an Astartes while at the Chapter Monastery and not in combat, maybe an older veteran now serving largely as a scholar and writing down his thoughts into a novel to be distributed locally.

What would the conflict be?

You don't need a conflict besides an occasional flashback while writing memoirs.

Actually, a novel without a conflict is traditionally known as, "unreadable and unpublishable".

Also, would the story be the memoirs, or would it be about him retiring and writing his memoirs?

Well if you need conflict, maybe the local publisher found his portrayal of the inquisition offensive, thus forcing the Veteran to rally his friends and chase down the scribe carrying the draft so they can edit some unsavory words?

Whatever the iron hands battle story is with clan raaukan it depicts them as pretty bad guys they sacrifice pretty much every imperial guard and titan allies they have just to get the job done quick... it's a brutal take on the space marine way of thinking in terms of human soldiers in the 41st millennium

 Wyzilla wrote:


Well if you need conflict, maybe the local publisher found his portrayal of the inquisition offensive, thus forcing the Veteran to rally his friends and chase down the scribe carrying the draft so they can edit some unsavory words?

You seem to be equating 'conflict' with 'gunfight'.

A conflict to drive a story could simply be the conflict between English and French when choosing mustard. The hard part is finding a Conflict that fits 40k.

Perhaps the conflict of loyalties for his favoured chapter serf, who has to decide whether to continue serving the retired Marine, even though he really doesn't need a serf any more, or allow himself to be reassigned to a younger marine.

A few ideas:

- Laborers in the bowels of a hive city plan a worker's revolt against their brutal overlords (Tale of Two Cities, Communist Manifesto)

- An Arbites judge executes his brutal duties against a weak and vulnerable populace, torn between the plight of the people and his responsibility to maintain order (and the planet's munitions shipments). (Farenheit 451).

- A ministorum priest is sent to convert a newly rediscovered human world, converting a violently religious population. (Silence)

- An Eldar seer engages in dangerous experimentation with the warp and Tyranid specimens to try and save his Craftworld.

- An Imperial Guard platoon is stranded on a death world and must survive against the odds.

- An Eversor Assassin, stowed away on an Imperial transport, goes insane after his drug infusion gets corrupted and he begins hallucinating and hunting down the crew.

It's not too hard to imagine more compelling and small scale stories that don't always involve global Armageddon.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Well if you need conflict, maybe the local publisher found his portrayal of the inquisition offensive, thus forcing the Veteran to rally his friends and chase down the scribe carrying the draft so they can edit some unsavory words?

You seem to be equating 'conflict' with 'gunfight'.

A conflict to drive a story could simply be the conflict between English and French when choosing mustard. The hard part is finding a Conflict that fits 40k.

Perhaps the conflict of loyalties for his favoured chapter serf, who has to decide whether to continue serving the retired Marine, even though he really doesn't need a serf any more, or allow himself to be reassigned to a younger marine.

No, I know what literary writing is, but with a 40k novel, the conflict always has to center on violence. We can't have the BL treating us like the mature adults we are after all!

 TheSilo wrote:
I kinda wish they'd write more "regular" scifi using the 40k universe. We see all the battles on the tabletop, it'd be cool to have novellas covering an Arbites judge or a Marine's transformation or political intrigue among the Eldar.

The Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies are basically detective novels in 40k. Fighting, but not battles.

Then there is the Sons of Dorn book which basically chronicles a group of IF initiates from when they were human all the way till they receive the Black Carapace.

The first Space Wolf book also has Ragnar from when he was still a human teen all the way through his initiation and transformation.