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Pretty much what the topic says. Is there a point that you have to tell your opponent what codex/allies/whatever else your playing? Obviously when you start deploying it will become obvious and if there is anything that isn't WYSIWYG, but beyond that, do you have to disclose that? I'm a Dark Angel player. It's the only army i own and my friends know this. What if I borrowed a Tau army to surprise someone with. Is that cheap? when should I disclose that information prior to battle? General thoughts on the subject?

Never while I am setting up my army then cover my army each individual model with a small bag so that he doesn't know what he is fighting. Then when I declare shooting or assault I reveal it.


What you should do is start to set up your Dark Angels, then immediately throw down a flashbang when he recovers have your Tau on the table.

You will find nothing in the rule book on this and I cant imagine why you would even find this an issue.

My solution is the best solution.

They know what I'm playing when lists are finished. No sooner.

I would ordinarily have said to be open up-front. With the new ally rules, however, it could be part of the tactics to suddenly bring in a new detachment you've been secretly assembling.

Decide with your friends how this is going to work. It's not clearly covered in the rules. The thing that tends to cause bad feeling in a group is when one player suddenly changes something that everyone had assumed wasn't up for discussion. E.g. bringing non-approved units or suddenly spotting a rule you've all been playing wrong and only pointing it out half way through the game.

In our group, we would have declared games or undeclared. You'd either challenge to a points value (1500 pts of WHFB) or an army type (1500 pts, orcs vs chaos). It sort of unofficially evolved.

Fragile wrote:
You will find nothing in the rule book on this and I cant imagine why you would even find this an issue.

It came up from a joke. I had made a comment about a game I was prepping for by saying "Good luck making your list, you don't even know what codex I'm using for my army". It was at that point he said that you have to disclose at least the codex and allies your using. I hadn't really had any intention of playing another army at the time, just trying to mess with him but it did raise the question.

Your choice.

Most times player setup matches they'll announce what army they are bringing. It's pretty much normal to go into a battle knowing what army you will be fighting before you write army lists or put and models down.


If you want to do secret things then typically you'll make that by intent as if you just say "lets play" most opponents will say "ok, what you playing with?"



I'd say the same for the new allies rule as well; its still the army you're taking to the game.

doctorludo wrote:


The thing that tends to cause bad feeling in a group is when one player suddenly changes something that everyone had assumed wasn't up for discussion. E.g. bringing non-approved units or suddenly spotting a rule you've all been playing wrong and only pointing it out half way through the game.

It also brings up hard feelings when you have an opponent that waits to build his army until after everyone else has made theirs, as then he can tweak his army to take advantage of the weakness, of his opponent(s) army.

Hollismason wrote:
Never while I am setting up my army then cover my army each individual model with a small bag so that he doesn't know what he is fighting. Then when I declare shooting or assault I reveal it.


What you should do is start to set up your Dark Angels, then immediately throw down a flashbang when he recovers have your Tau on the table.

If I thought I could pull that off, I'd totally do it.

Fragile wrote:
It came up from a joke. I had made a comment about a game I was prepping for by saying "Good luck making your list, you don't even know what codex I'm using for my army". It was at that point he said that you have to disclose at least the codex and allies your using. I hadn't really had any intention of playing another army at the time, just trying to mess with him but it did raise the question.

The book does not require you and your opponent to agree to anything aside from how many points your playing, whether you're allowing Unbound lists, what type of mission you want to play, and how the terrain is set up.

But there is an underlying assumption that you discuss things ahead of time with your opponent and set up expectations. If you just say "I'm not telling you what codex I'm playing" without any discussion, that will probably be perceived as a dick move. Sort of like the people who bring Suprise Warhound Titans to pick-up-games... it's strictly legal, and I'm not against playing against it, you really ought to let me know ahead of time that you're doing something like that.

For me, my opponent generally knows what army I'm playing before I write my list, however I almost never know what I'm facing. This is mostly due to people who haven't been playing long wanting to try against a specific army (usually Nids).

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The book does not require you and your opponent to agree to anything aside from how many points your playing, whether you're allowing Unbound lists, what type of mission you want to play, and how the terrain is set up.

False. From 'Choosing Your Army':

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

For a real answer a really fun way to play a tournament or a pick up game if you know everyone involved is everyone writes up a list and brings their army up then you do a secret Santa on who get's what army.

It's actually pretty fun. Just everyone should be a cool dude about people playing with their figures.

I'd recommend it for you and your friends. It makes you a better player too! Plus it's a nice change of pace.

Dunno if this belongs in YMDC as there's no rule to cover it, interesting topic though My gaming group has a house rule where you have to declare which army you're using, plus which allies and which supplements, as well as LoW. Most of the time it works fine, but it is very frustrating when the opponent builds a lists specifically designed to take that army down. My biggest loss in 40k was when I took my Dark Eldar army [which I later sold] and my opponents [was a 2v1 game] built their lists around taking down skimmers [loads of Hydras] and lightly armed infantry [flamers].

I always try to take an army based upon what models I think would be cool [and to a lesser extent competitive] and don't build my list around what I think my opponent will take [although I will take it into account a little, e.g. vs. Guard I take meltas on my immolatators, vs. Orks it would be flamers]. Part of me feels that it would be more fun for both sides if a points limit was agreed upon but everything else was left as a surprise.

With my gaming group we normally have 2v2 or more than 2v2 per side and we have everyone make a 1000pt and 1500pt list and randomly roll to see who is going to be on each side (when we all show up with armies), and use whichever list accordingly to balance point values (or sometimes add 500pts to one side) .... doing it this way you can't tailor you list since your not sure who's team you will be on, and since most of us have at least 2 armies your are forced to bring TAC lists or risk being steamrolled.

If the person you are playing with is asking for what codex you are using to list tailor that's something I would address, if not just start saying, hey lets just agree on a point value and play instead of a point value and codex.

Largely it's not a problem. For the most part everyone I game with owns 1 army. So if I'm playing Friend "A", then I know I'm going against Necrons while if I'm playing Friend "B", it's Tyranids. It really isn't a problem with my group as it is a question that presented itself one time. A lot of the time, we agree on a point cost for the night and then just figure out who we're playing based on who shows up.

 Whereswaldo wrote:

If the person you are playing with is asking for what codex you are using to list tailor that's something I would address,

There's nothing wrong with tailoring your list to suit a specific opponent. Indeed part of the core of the game is learning how to build an effective army. If you tell your opponent what army you're taking then they must tell you theirs and similarly you've then both got the option to tailor your army to suit theirs (likely also taking into account of what you know of them as a player and what they've got).

Now it gets to being wrong if you're showing them your army list an then they are tailoring or you're putting down models and they are making their list up on the fly as then they are specifically countering what you're using.


Normally I'd agree to a game with someone and then unless we both have lists written out in advance we'll write out our lists at the same time and then come to the table to play. No chance to see each others lists until they are both on the table.

I quickly caught on to not telling my gaming group when I bought a new model. Played against my mate's Grey Knights and he pulled out a landraider I didn't know he had, and I had nothing that could get through AV14. On the other hand whenever I bought a new model I would tell people on our Facebook page, and then next game would find that something had been brought specifically to take it out.

I tried to keep my Avenger Strike Fighter quiet but as I had to declare Forgeworld I couldn't really. My other problem is that I barely have time to read my own codex let alone my opponent's.

Finally I just stopped worrying about what my opponent was bringing and just took models that I thought were cool and/or were painted. I realised I didn't really care if I won our lost anyway.

I do feel that codexes with multiple effective builds [e.g. Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines] do benefit more from pre-declared codexes. Also a large model collection will give a person an advantage as they can always keep you guessing.

I usually ask my opponent what he would like to play againgst.

I have many lists written up so unless im practicing for a tourny or just wanna try somthing new out I always give my opponent the option of what he'd like to face.

When planning a game. In my opinion before the game begins army lists should have been read/changed to ensure a fairer fight and make a more enjoyable game.

There should be no secrets well before the game starts. Nothing should be a shock. Except previously unseen paint jobs on a cool model.

Where I play, about a week before each game we know everything about each others lists and roughly what terrain we are using. Improves the game drastically.

I'd reveal I'm playing Eldar or Tyranids that day, but not my army list itself. But, I would also tailor my list to certain armies and have 'replace' options based on points. A Lictor instead of a Zoanthrope if my Nids are playing an infantry heavy army instead of armor heavy. A Falcon instead of a Fire Prism, same thing. Back up plans so to speak, but I don't want to see my opponent's list before I get there and tailor to his list directly. Just plan against the army I know I'll see and assume what will show up.

We'll usually discuss our armies and chat to each other while we build our lists.

"are you bringing your land raider?"
"hellz yeah i'm bringing my land raider, and 2 drops pods of terminators to get up in your ass"
"...<scribbles out killa kans>..."


I often find that while we're setting up terrain if I pop outside for a cigarette my opponent will fill both deployment zones with so much terrain that you can't fit an ork army in there.Sneaky bastards the lot of them.

At least there is a semi-Rule granting permission to move scenery to fit an Army.

From the Not Enough Room section:
This being said, a far better solution is to increase the size of the battlefield and/or the size of the deployment zones being used. With experience, you will learn roughly how much space your army needs to deploy in, and will be able to tailor deployment zones appropriately. You might also want to reduce the amount of scenery in a deployment zone, or shuffle it around slightly in order to give models the space they need to deploy.

Hollismason wrote:
Never while I am setting up my army then cover my army each individual model with a small bag so that he doesn't know what he is fighting. Then when I declare shooting or assault I reveal it.


What you should do is start to set up your Dark Angels, then immediately throw down a flashbang when he recovers have your Tau on the table.

Thank you Hollisman. I m putting this in my signature

It is pretty fair game at tournaments here to ask the other player for their army list before the game to see what you'll be playing against.

Army lists are pre-written, kind of like a Magic: the Gathering deck.

You're not allowed to just up and change your gak around mid tourny.

As for non - tourny I would welcome having not a clue what my opponent was playing.

Occasionally, I purposely avoid asking what is inside what transport so it becomes more realistic.

The army you're role playing is not likely going to HAPPEN know they have "a flamer, a plasma cannon, a power fist and roughly 10 marines in basic power armour" in that PARTICULAR rhino out of 5 of them.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Also a large model collection will give a person an advantage as they can always keep you guessing.

Aye that's always been part of the hobby
And heck if there's someone at the club who is known to have very little free money to spend, proxies or loaning models for a game can often cover that ground for them. Sometimes its even fun to just swap whole armies for a game or two with your opponent to change things up. (this can oft be a very effective tactic against people who are all "your army is always better than mine" if you can see that its how they play not what they bring).

 Overread wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Also a large model collection will give a person an advantage as they can always keep you guessing.

Aye that's always been part of the hobby
And heck if there's someone at the club who is known to have very little free money to spend, proxies or loaning models for a game can often cover that ground for them. Sometimes its even fun to just swap whole armies for a game or two with your opponent to change things up. (this can oft be a very effective tactic against people who are all "your army is always better than mine" if you can see that its how they play not what they bring).

100% Agree.

Army swapping causes people to buy new armies of their own.

Keeps the FLGS happy

Hollismason wrote:
For a real answer a really fun way to play a tournament or a pick up game if you know everyone involved is everyone writes up a list and brings their army up then you do a secret Santa on who get's what army.

It's actually pretty fun. Just everyone should be a cool dude about people playing with their figures.

I'd recommend it for you and your friends. It makes you a better player too! Plus it's a nice change of pace.

Many years back our club did something similar. Prepping for one of the GW GTs, we all brought in out GT armies, and then each of us played 3 games using other peoples armies, with at least one game against our own army. In addition to our list we had to write out a basic 'How to play it' synopsis for our own army.

Prepping for one of the GW GTs, we all brought in out GT armies, and then each of us played 3 games using other peoples armies, with at least one game against our own army. In addition to our list we had to write out a basic 'How to play it' synopsis for our own army.

Excellent idea! I would love to participate in a tournament like that.
Never had the opportunity though, although in friendly games I changed armies with my opponent sometimes, it teaches you many things playing against your own army.

@topic

I always like to see my opponents list before the roll for side because I want to base my decision (if I get it) on the army I will be facing. Same with deployment, markers etc.
This might not be part of the rules but I think it is somehow fair to do it like that and we do it in tournaments in general. Although it could be fun and interesting to not see what you are up against before the opponents first unit is deployed, so who deploys first has a kind of disadvantage which would correspond to the advantage of the choice for first turn...