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So, a thought occurred to me as I was thinking about my Chaos renegades. I always wished that the Chaos Marines wouldn't be so bound to the standard "codex" format and that was kind of my only real disappintment that came out of the CSM codex. I always wanted to take a 20 strong squad with more than 2 specials or more than one heavy, or 10 strong with 2 heavy weapons, etc... But I just realized that with the unbound army list I can finaly have Chaos Marines that arm themselves as they wish instead of going on some Astartes Doctrine. Taking Havoke squards instead of regular marines let's you customize your squads for any role.

So, my tactics question is, has anyone tried to use havoks as beefier "tactical squads". For example a ten man squad with 2 plasma and 2 las, or 2 heavy bolters and 2 flamers or 2 "combat squads" with 2-4 special/heavy weapons only instead of playing them like devastators, playing them like you would tacs. I was thinking that a couple of 10 strong squads with 2xplasma and 2xmissile with the skyfire upgrade would also help out with my anti air. With 2 fire points and the new vehicle damage charts, a rhino with 10 marines and 2special+2heavy weapons seems like a very useful set-up.

An interesting idea. What will you do to overcome their crippling vulnerability to morale and sweeping advances?

Seems like an awful lot of points to spend on guns where half want to move and half want to stay still. Sure you gain versatility but at a hefty price.

Couple thoughts. Tac squads are cheaper. missile launchers are stupidly expensive and ineffective at AA.

If you're going to run Havocs as special-weapon bonanzas, better to split the special and heavy weapons, I think. Like 4x Plasma or 2x Plasma, 2x Melta (you get the idea). Heavy weapons do need to be segregated due to the movement penalties (Heavy Bolters I'd take in a mixed format, but that's because the HB has enough shots to be worth snapshotting every now and then and doesn't have a whole lot of range over other units).

Depending on the taxes involved, you could just run Chosen to get the same effect, sans the heavy weapons (and instead can go for special CCs). Heck, go Black Legion and you've suddenly got a force that fits into a Combined Arms Detachment with Chosen.

That's the thing, I'm not planning on running them as havoks, but simply replacing any normal CSM squad with a havok squad and running them as if they're my basic troop choice. I think it would be neat to be able to have a CSM squad that instead of just 2xplasma might have an extra 2 heavy weapons just to beef up their hitting power situationally.

I think it might be neat and/or usefull to just swap one for the other just for the extra few weapons.

I see where you're going and the idea has merit, but when you use up all three of your heavy support slots for elite gear on your "troops" you're left with the fast attack slot for supporting these guys.

So if you can properly support them with spawn, bikers, and heldrakes, try it out and I think you will be pleased.

What I would do is try putting in 2 heavy weapons and 2 special weapons per squad, put them in rhinos. Have the two heavy weapons fire from the fire points, and, when you disembark, you have the special weapons to lay out plasma shots or melta or whatever.

It would be like having 3 super razorbacks! Throw on havoc launchers for good measure.

Don't mix heavy and special weapons. The only reason troops do it is because you're (usually) not allowed to take two of the same type. If you're going to take havocs as your "troops" either take four heavies or four specials.

 Peregrine wrote:
Don't mix heavy and special weapons. The only reason troops do it is because you're (usually) not allowed to take two of the same type. If you're going to take havocs as your "troops" either take four heavies or four specials.

Why?

Also, he said he wants some heavy weapons, and you're just saying "no, that's not ok"

 changerofways wrote:
Why?

Because they have different roles. Heavy weapons want to camp in a good spot and shoot every turn, special weapons want to move up close and wipe something off the table. If you have two of each this means that no matter what you do you're wasting half your weapons. Either the heavies will be limited to snap fire while you move to get up close and use the specials, or the specials will be out of range while you camp with the heavies. Therefore you pick one: either four copies of a single heavy weapon, or four copies of a single special weapon.

Also, he said he wants some heavy weapons, and you're just saying "no, that's not ok"

You're right, that's exactly what I'm saying. Sometimes the answer to a strategy question is just "no, that's a bad idea".

 Eldarain wrote:
An interesting idea. What will you do to overcome their crippling vulnerability to morale and sweeping advances?

having enough guns you hope to avoid combat.

This is a cool idea, but Khorne will not be pleased with your cowardice. GET IN THERE AND FIGHT!

The reason I was thinking this for 7th ed, is because of the unbound lists. That way my "troops", which were usually CSM squads can be havoks and I can still throw in proper forge/maulerfields or anks as support.

Just off the top of my head, I can picture a list like
3x CSM squads with 2xplasma
2x5 bikes w/2xmelta
2x5 havoks w/4autocannons
Vindicator
Heldrake
2x6 chosen w/6melta
Chaos lord on bike

That should be around 1850 and is battleforged.

But since havoks and csm troop squads are the same points and can have the same upgrades, if I say nuts to the battleforged and do a similar list unbound with extra havoks, I can have:
3x8 havoks w/2xplasma and 2 las or auto
2x 5 bikes w/2 melta
2xmaulerfiends
vindicator
Heldrake
2x6 chosen w/melta
Chaos lord on a bike

That should also be around 1850 and rather then needing CSM for bodies and havoks for heavies, you can combine the two and take something else in HS as well because it's unbound.

I'm not proposing those lists, or any specific lists, I'm just throwing out the idea that, if you took CSM before, now you can have "CSM squads" that aren't bound to the Astartes Codex format. Plus, you can have 9 in a rhino w/ a chaos lord all armed to jump down someone's throat, but instead of just 1 melta instead of 2, you can 4. Or even make a "razorback" and have a 5 man squad with 4 specials as someone said above.

My CSM force is Renegades, as oppossed to traitor legions, and I enjoy playing a Space Marine themed csm list, but one that feels like something is a bit off, chaos like. Clearly, if you don't take regular marines and load up on cultists then this idea isn't for you, but for me, I like 13 point marines. I just always wanted to arm them to the teeth.

Once I get a chance to test it out I'll post some results.

squards!
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/604924.page#7036022

Towards the bottom, I just spammed havocs.

If I could I would spam las cannons if they was 15 pts.

Go unbound with rhinos full of 4 flames and or 4 melta havocs

kungfujew wrote:So, my tactics question is, has anyone tried to use havoks as beefier "tactical squads".

No, nor would I. Troops and Heavy Support do different things in different ways, and should be used accordingly.

Troops exist to throw down a bunch of durability cheaply, which is great for taking up table space and for hanging out on objectives. They have a role of being the backbone of your army, and not making it too fragile just because you threw everything at expensive support units. Meanwhile, heavy support exists to cheaply apply up-front killing power, and nothing else.

You take CSM instead of Havocs because Havocs are worse at taking objectives, holding them, close combat, and close-range firefights. They're better all-arounders, which is why they form the core of an army. Making an all-havoc army would be sort of like an all-HWS army for guard. It would be pretty scary turn one, but it would evaporate quickly once it started taking casualties.

I think being able to take 4 specials in a squad makes them pretty good at close range actually.

Chaos Space Marines w/ Rhino Rush is not terrible it's just not as good as SM because we don't get Razorbacks which is bs if i have not mentioned it.


Possessed as Troops are not actually terrible. Their really annoying to get rid of if it's a huge unit w/ Slaanesh and they have Feel no pain.

Just pointing that out.

 Ailaros wrote:

kungfujew wrote:So, my tactics question is, has anyone tried to use havoks as beefier "tactical squads".

No, nor would I. Troops and Heavy Support do different things in different ways, and should be used accordingly.

Troops exist to throw down a bunch of durability cheaply, which is great for taking up table space and for hanging out on objectives. They have a role of being the backbone of your army, and not making it too fragile just because you threw everything at expensive support units. Meanwhile, heavy support exists to cheaply apply up-front killing power, and nothing else.

You take CSM instead of Havocs because Havocs are worse at taking objectives, holding them, close combat, and close-range firefights. They're better all-arounders, which is why they form the core of an army. Making an all-havoc army would be sort of like an all-HWS army for guard. It would be pretty scary turn one, but it would evaporate quickly once it started taking casualties.

Actually, the thing about Havoks is that they are EXACTLY the same as Chaos Marine Squads. The only diference is that the CSM squads get objective secured, can take 1 special weapon and one additional special weapon or heavy weapon at a size of 10+. Meanwhile, Havoks get 4x special or heavy at any size. They get the same marks, upgrades and every othe option at exactly the same cost. For example you can have a CSM squad of 10 with 2x melta, bolter, bolt pistol and CCW for all, a power weapon on the champion and a Rhino for 228 points, or CSM squad of 10 with 4x melta, bolter, bolt pistol and CCW for all, a power weapon on the champion and a Rhino for 248, the only difference is the cost of 2 melta guns. You can even take replace one havok with a "bare bones" Chaos Lord for 298 points, if you give the Chaos Lord the champion's power weapon.

That's what really struck me as openning up the options for a neat Renegade SM style list. The fact that havoks can not just have heavy weapons, or special weapons, but they can also be marked, given banners or even extra CCW at the same price as their troop choice counterparts. They can even exchange their bolters for the extra CCW for free.

Hollismason wrote:
Chaos Space Marines w/ Rhino Rush is not terrible it's just not as good as SM because we don't get Razorbacks which is bs if i have not mentioned it.

the razor back is only 4000 years old or so, which makes chaos not having it understandable

Silverthorne wrote:I think being able to take 4 specials in a squad makes them pretty good at close range actually.

Against things that chainswords and krak grenades work against...

At least with long-range havocs you get to apply killing power right away.

And Havocs may cost as much, but they can't get free chainswords, they don't superscore, and they don't get to be in squads of 20. Which is why they're troops. Because you can have giant, cheaper, superscoring units with more efficient access to non-weapon upgrades and buffs. With havocs you lose all that just for a couple extra weapons.

Which is why they're HS.

So, my first four experiences with the 'Havok only' model were generally positive. They brought out an impressive amount of firepower and were very interesting and fun to use. My favourite use, I think, was either 10 with 2 plasma and 2 las, or 10 plasma and 2 missile launcher, w/flakk. The best combination was the 2ML and 2PG combo, on foot, at the front of my deployment zone, supported by 2x5 havoks with 4xAutocannons. Totaling in at 450 points, they gave my force a solid backbone of bodies and firepower to move off of. They were supported by 2 sets of 4 melta Havoks w/a combi Champion in Rhinos and 2 sets of 4 plasma Havoks again w/a combi Champ in Rhinos. The almost bare bones Chaos Lord, was with 9 chosen and 5 flamers in a Rhino. At some times it did feel like I lacked some bodies but for a few test games, the experience was positive.

The lesson I'm taking out of this is that Chaos Marines are not Codex Marines. The idea of using them as tactical marines was entertaining but it needs some tweeking in application. With all the extra special weapons, I was short of my own ideal of how many marines I should have in a squad. While they hit hard, I could have used a few extra models to add some staying power. One of the most useful elements to them was that they actually had 2 plasma and 2 heavy weapons. They deployed more aggressively than a 4 heavy squad would and I actually found that by forcing myself to use them as an area of influence/table control and move them around instead of just taking pot shots downrange, they were very effective. In one game against necrons, they had the 2 las sniped out on turn 2 and spent the rest of the game chasing down targets to shoot at with their bolters and plasma guns.

The one thing I missed most was having 10 ccw and pistol for 140 points. Which led into what I noticed as the biggest weakness in being too small and elite due to mass amounts of expensive and powerfull guns. I missed out on having a cheap, fairly durable "assualt" unit in my regular CSM squads.

There's a lot more "tweeking" that needs to be done to my model for my renegade warband, but I definately really like the flexibility that taking 'tactical havok squads' allows with unbound, as it doesn't stop me from using other heavy support choices.

If anyone else has experimented with this I'd love to hear about your experiences.

I'm glad it worked out so well!

I always thought Abaddon/Chosen/Havoc lists were underrated. If you can protect those expensive single wound models properly, the possibilities are great!

Always remember your friend the cultist, he's a great cheap unit that your opponent loves to remove from the table by the score!