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Just like it says, when your teaching new players or fighting newer players, how does it affect your list building. What tactics or "on purpose" mistakes do you make to help make sure you don't completely destroy them, while still giving a good challenge??

1. Give them a points handicap.
2. Always explain poor moves to them so they can learn (plus the game is no fun for you when someone is making all the worst moves possible, its no fun to win that way)
3. Always let them take back oops moves
4. Never make mistakes "on purpose" because they will never learn or get better that way.
5. Tone down or take out models that you know will superiority crush them. New players don't always have the best models to start with due to cash limitations or not knowing what to buy. Don't go bringing multiple flame templates to a guy who just bought an infantry battalion box to start.
6. Answer any and all questions they have but explain how they could find the answer in the rule book. Too many new players do not know how to use a rule book.
7. Give examples of what kind of models/changes could help them when it comes to problems their armies have. Sometimes it is a free fix like changing a magic item or two.
8. MOST IMPORTANT RULE...... Don't be a Dbag, they are new players and if you make them not want to play, they wont. Less players means less money to your FLGS, which means more likely they can go out of business, then you have no where to play....

Speaking as a new player I'd say just don't take things meant to smash their army and just explain what you're doing and how things work.

Its not about changing units up so much its more about walkingthem through what they are doing and not hitting them with those nasty combos. If iI beat a new comer at a game doesn't mean I was a Dick it could have been dice or their list was just awful. The important part is letting them learn in a friendly enviroment where there's no pressure to win but just learn the game and learn their army. I always would play gamers in the younger age group 12-15 or so because not many wanted to. I don't intentionally write hard lists or anything but I usually play a standard list with some minor changes.

The biggest thing I have found that helps new players is in the game I let them make their decisions but show them options and after the game its a post game review. After we are done sit down and go over what went well and what didn't and let them go through their books to find solutions. In fantasy its all about how we play our army. When they learn about their army and learn more about the game they have fun.

I fully agree on not making 'on purpose' mistakes, but I'd definitely take a super fluffy list while simultaneously offering to walk them through decisions (both on your end and their end). If they understand why they were beaten, they'll learn a lot more and enjoy themselves more as well. Getting beaten and having no idea what was going on is no fun for anyone. And if they beat your super fluffy list, great!

I enjoy introducing new people as it gives me a chance to try super fluffy fun combos that wouldn't really be feasible otherwise.

I'm really not one for taking an army with less points, or using the weaker options in the book (unless I'm doing that anyway for another reason). It's not that much use them learning how to beat the weaker lists, when they really should be learning how to beat the stronger ones.

Maybe I'm a sort of "throw them in at the deep end" kinda guy, but I'd rather play them with my normal list, but suggest moves to them as they go. I try not to play the game for them, but I'd point out advantages and disadvantages to certain moves, perhaps suggest what I'd do in their place, what unit might be best suited for taking out one of my own etc.

That's my view anyway, it will differ depending on who you are, and who your opponent is too.

A few thoughts:

1) If you make deliberate mistakes to give your opponent an advantage to win then you run the risk that they'll catch you doing it. If they do they'll never "trust" you to play fair with them (much as they don't want to lose every match, most people don't like being patronised no matter their age).

2) Under pointing yourself or taking any other form of handicap is like point 1; its a bit patronising to the player; it can also mean that how they learn to play has to suddenly change when playing others or when you "take the kid gloves off" which can set them all the way back where they were at the start.

3) Run a few demo/teaching matches. Use them to show them the basics of how to play - run the game very light with take-backs and also in these make use of making poor choices. It's a "demo" game to make yourself move to display some ideal opportunities to showcase tactics - like how to assault - flanking - grouping up for an assault - target priority - target selection etc..
Remember these are demo matches so its ok to do daft things to setup a situation (you might even just straight setup a pre-designed mission deployment to show the idea of a tactic).

4) Teach them how to:
a) Identify target priorities - don't just say "this stuff is tough", show them why its a tough or dangerous target to take out.

b) Show them how to gage how effective their units are against yours - how to get a rough idea of what is and isn't a good idea to attack with what they have.

5) Once they've got the hang of controlling their army and you're more into how to play the game at a tactical rather than mechanical level consider swapping armies a few times. This lets them get a feel of a different army; but it also means that you can show how their army can beat yours (so long as you're not being cheesy/beardy).



In general have fun and expect matches to take considerably longer as you have to explain things. Play well and try not to "lose" on purpose (if they catch you it will be months before they have the self confidence to know that they won because of themselves and not because you let them).

For their first game don't make the game too large.
Explain poor moves to them so they can learn, make suggestions for moves and explain why one move is better than another.
Be honest with what you are doing and ask them how they would like to play. If they want a handicap in points or lists, or any other way respect their decisions.
Explain your gaming decisions.
Try to select units that give rules examples but don't overwhelm them too soon. There are lots of rules to go over.
Some people like to learn by only playing 1 or 2 phases at a time.
I like this one from RJ Carrot- Answer any and all questions they have but explain how they could find the answer in the rule book. Too many new players do not know how to use a rule book.
Be prepared to take much much longer. In the end it will be worth it.
.

On the subject of rules - make sure you've got them. Big rule book or small rule book - and codex for both armies. Sounds basic but really make sure you've got them - ideally if they've got one have them bring their own rule book (its good to encourage them to get their own as even if there is a store copy it a lot easier to learn if they've got a copy they can read in their own time - plus store copies tend to get used by someone else just when you want to use them).

As an extra comment about making things fun, don't bring Cannons or other Artillary into the game if they want to bring a Monstrous Creature.

Bring something of equal or competitive strength to their Monstrous Creature it is fun to have two Monsters beat on each other.

But in terms of listing get him/her to tell you what he is bringing and match his Infantry, Archers and Cav equally (And don't bring a massively buffed up Chaos Lord).

I tend to find it's best to do a 500-700 point game so you are both restricted in what you can bring, it is always nice to start off with a couple of small skirmishes and slowly increase the point cap to allow more specialized units onto the field.

Here's what worked for me:

1.) Start smaller. around 1,000 pts depending on what army they have (VC tend to suck that low)

This way they aren't overwhelmed.

2.) give them one of every unit type, infantry, mage, combat hero, cav, beasts, monsters let them see how each work.

This way they have a wide variety of toys to use & learn the different unit types.

3.) Tell them your thought process "I'm moving this unit here, because now it will block & redirect a charge if you throw one. Then I can charge your flank. Yes this unit will die but that's OK because that's it's job."

This teaches them better how to understand the game. You might think a certain move is a nobrainer but they might not realize it. I know many people coming from 40k don't understand sacrificial units.

4.) ask their thought process when they make, what you feel, are bad moves. "Hey why are you moving him there?" <They explain> "OK well here is why i think that's bad, do you want to rethink it or do you want my recommendation? It's cool if you still want to do that we can see if it works."

This allows them the freedom to do what they want, yet makes sure they don't get facerolled because they forgot your cav are Mv8 and are well within charge range. Also it gives you insight into things you may not have thought. You can learn a lot by listening to someone with a brand new perspective of the game as they don't have any prejudice to fall back on.

I'm not a fan of handicaping yourself points wise. Just take units that maybe aren't so good. Take a block of marauders instead of warriors. Play with that fun magic item that never sees the table because it's not very good. Run units that normally don't synergize well & bring out that strigoi ghoul king.

Finally make it FUN. Don't throw the game, most mature people will realize you're doing this but also don't crush them. Nobody lieks getting stomped their first few games. Make it a close game & make it fun.

I don't do anything. They have to learn.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I don't do anything. They have to learn.

Please DON'T be this guy. Yes they have to learn but it's no fun to get stomped time & time again. This is one of the reasons I didn't get into warmahordes. I got stomped by veteran players over and over, their reason was "Well this is how you learn, page 5 man." I didn't learn anything, I got frustrated & felt like the community was full of WAAC players and didn't pick up the game because of it.

If winning is more important than teaching that's fine, if it feels good to crush new players who have no skill & chalk up that extra W good for you, but you should tone it down on new players until they get the hang of the game & slowly turn it up. This will groom better opponents in the future and foster a community of teaching & learning. I play with a guy who was on the US ETC team and he's probably the best sportsman I know and everyone loves playing him because no matter your skill level he can make it fun & enjoyable.


tl;dr Don't do this:

Nah I agree with not toning it down. You learn best from failure, not being treated like a special snow flake.

Why not just ask the other player which method they'd prefer? I have some friends that would get insulted if I toned things down, and some that wouldn't play me if I didn't. That may be the final answer to all this, as there are many differing opinions.

Idk not toning it down isn't a bad idea If the player is mature enough to take a beating. Don't do that with the kids. Though when my dad taught me chess when I was 6 I didn't beat him for 9 years. He regularly kicked my ass. Same with risk and monopoly(which I'm 29 and still haven't beaten him in). It made me much better and when I finally won a game I EARNED it. He shook my hand and congratulated me.

Yeah. It's less about getting the win and more about them learning with a real army.

I don't think that working in a vacuum really helps much. Instead, tailor your list against his (or her?) list. Don't take units that you see they don't have answers for (say, a nurgle demon prince or two units of demigryphs against someone who can't deal with 1+ saves). Don't take things that will hard-counter their units. Try to build a list that will create good matchups and bad matchups, and will give them a good fight.

Most importantly, make these games at a lower point value. Something like 1,500, which is a really nice point value for new players. You can actually take something resembling a competitive army at that level, though without any redundancy.

I'd also say that you should make it clear that you're not bringing your tournament army out to play, until they ask you to. Then once they do don't pull a single punch, and show them what a mean list can do. But DON'T JUST LEAVE IT THERE: show them what they need to be able to beat that. No answers to 1+ saves in their list? Point out what their army can bring to counter that. Nothing to deal with fast cav? Show them how shooty units would be able to deal with the enemy.

The trick is, I think, to lead the player to the water rather than just describing it to them. Nobody is quite prepared for many of these hard tournament builds until they've played them a couple times, and learned how to defeat them. They're really not all that scary, but to a new player with no idea how to deal with them they seem insurmountable. Show them how things aren't as bad as they seem.

 namiel wrote:
Idk not toning it down isn't a bad idea If the player is mature enough to take a beating. Don't do that with the kids. Though when my dad taught me chess when I was 6 I didn't beat him for 9 years. He regularly kicked my ass. Same with risk and monopoly(which I'm 29 and still haven't beaten him in). It made me much better and when I finally won a game I EARNED it. He shook my hand and congratulated me.

Bingo, you don't learn the value of winning with this T-ball no one keeps score yuppie BS.

I'd say it depends on the new player and the environment in which he will be playing.

If you're mainly a painter and modeller who likes the models and just wants to play some fun and fluffy games with friends once in a while, you'll not benefit from someone "learning you the value of winning" by pulling some macho sensei crap and crushing you time after time with über cheesy lists. You'll just get bored and frustrated and not play anymore.

On the other hand, if you're an experienced gamer, perhaps coming from some other tabletop game and/or wanting to do some tournament play in the future, then you'll probably need to learn things the "hard" way.

I'd say most people fall somewhere in between these two categories and then it's up to the one doing the teaching to respect the wishes and expectations of the new player. After all, if he isn't having fun, he will decide that WHFB isn't for him. This game can be played in many ways; that's one of its great strengths but also something people seem to forget sometimes. Just because you and your group/meta is ultra competetive doesn't mean everyone wants to play that way. The game already suffers from a high level of entry (expensive, high model count, cumbersome rule system, unpractical transport-wise, etc), there's no need to make it even higher by smacking new players around if they don't explicitly ask for it and expect it.

I'm a fairly new player myself and I can just say that the way I've learned (and still am learning) the game - friendly matches with friendly people in a casual environment - is far more productive and fun for me than a hardcore boot camp with some Sgt. Hartman wannabe would have been. In the end this is a hobby where grown men push play soldiers around, not the Olympics.

It also depends on how new they are. The first few games shouldn't be about winning / losing but about learning mechanics.

I guess I took this thread to mean their first couple games, which for most new players I know are spent going back & forth to the rule book to look up everything.

I feel like toning down then is appropriate you want to teach them the mechanics & the rules. Don't play bad but work with sub optimal unit synergies. This allows you to field units you normally wouldn't & maybe find some interesting new combos.

There's no sense blindsiding them with uber unit X & super syngery Y when they don't even know how to calculate combat res yet. Also try not to hard counter them. A daemon player does not need to face off against BotWD their first game ever, let them learn the mechanics before learning the hard counters.

Hold that off until they don't need to consult the rule book for every special rule & weapon in their army. The kid gloves shouldn't stay on forever, they should come off quickly, but don't start with the brass knuckles either. If you crush their army on turn 2 or 3, what did they really learn? They learned about that one trick you used and maybe how to avoid it. Teach them all the basic mechanics first then teach them the advanced strategies.

Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Teaching them in a bubble does more harm than good. They'll learn, but be clueless in the real world, then they have to learn a whole new game. Whereas teaching them with real lists, which may vary in your meta, but mine is rather competitive, will do much more for them than ANY toning down can EVER hope to do.

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Theres also a difference between teaching and playing someone who is new but knows the rules. If you are teaching then its less of a game more of a q&a session. If you are playing a noob just play them and let them take the beating. It will make them better so long as they are mature enough to handle the beating. Every time I got my ass handed to me it just made me work harder and push to be a better player in all things not WHFB.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Teaching them in a bubble does more harm than good. They'll learn, but be clueless in the real world, then they have to learn a whole new game. Whereas teaching them with real lists, which may vary in your meta, but mine is rather competitive, will do much more for them than ANY toning down can EVER hope to do.

you are getting the jist. As in ogre players using sabretusks to pin a unit in a poor deployment. FAnatics and manglers destroying a unit. skinks shooting a monster. I mean things like BOtwd portaglyph epidemus, and a small handful of other stupid items.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 namiel wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Theres also a difference between teaching and playing someone who is new but knows the rules. If you are teaching then its less of a game more of a q&a session. If you are playing a noob just play them and let them take the beating. It will make them better so long as they are mature enough to handle the beating. Every time I got my ass handed to me it just made me work harder and push to be a better player in all things not WHFB.

You know that is a great point. I do spend the first game or two teaching rather than actually playing. Also my most important game of warhammer ever was when the best player in our store showed my terminator armor playing no clue what a movement phase was for self how important movement is in fantasy. It was a bloody slaughter but boy did i learn a lot. Consequently i have never lost against Ogres again.

 captain collius wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Teaching them in a bubble does more harm than good. They'll learn, but be clueless in the real world, then they have to learn a whole new game. Whereas teaching them with real lists, which may vary in your meta, but mine is rather competitive, will do much more for them than ANY toning down can EVER hope to do.

you are getting the jist. As in ogre players using sabretusks to pin a unit in a poor deployment. FAnatics and manglers destroying a unit. skinks shooting a monster. I mean things like BOtwd portaglyph epidemus, and a small handful of other stupid items.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 namiel wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Theres also a difference between teaching and playing someone who is new but knows the rules. If you are teaching then its less of a game more of a q&a session. If you are playing a noob just play them and let them take the beating. It will make them better so long as they are mature enough to handle the beating. Every time I got my ass handed to me it just made me work harder and push to be a better player in all things not WHFB.

You know that is a great point. I do spend the first game or two teaching rather than actually playing. Also my most important game of warhammer ever was when the best player in our store showed my terminator armor playing no clue what a movement phase was for self how important movement is in fantasy. It was a bloody slaughter but boy did i learn a lot. Consequently i have never lost against Ogres again.

You have played against MY ogres yet. Sounds like we need to get a game

 namiel wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Teaching them in a bubble does more harm than good. They'll learn, but be clueless in the real world, then they have to learn a whole new game. Whereas teaching them with real lists, which may vary in your meta, but mine is rather competitive, will do much more for them than ANY toning down can EVER hope to do.

you are getting the jist. As in ogre players using sabretusks to pin a unit in a poor deployment. FAnatics and manglers destroying a unit. skinks shooting a monster. I mean things like BOtwd portaglyph epidemus, and a small handful of other stupid items.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 namiel wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah there is a difference between teaching the rules and being a donkey. I generally take a good list and explain how to play an options and let them learn. We also adhere to the order of play i.e charge compulsory remaining moves etc. this teaches them how to play.

Theres also a difference between teaching and playing someone who is new but knows the rules. If you are teaching then its less of a game more of a q&a session. If you are playing a noob just play them and let them take the beating. It will make them better so long as they are mature enough to handle the beating. Every time I got my ass handed to me it just made me work harder and push to be a better player in all things not WHFB.

You know that is a great point. I do spend the first game or two teaching rather than actually playing. Also my most important game of warhammer ever was when the best player in our store showed my terminator armor playing no clue what a movement phase was for self how important movement is in fantasy. It was a bloody slaughter but boy did i learn a lot. Consequently i have never lost against Ogres again.

You have played against MY ogres yet. Sounds like we need to get a game

HAHAHA BRING IT!

This is weirdly apropos because I am actually running intro games for newbies at my local gaming club this week. What i've done is make it so their army has a distinct advantage, it won't seem like it to them, but to vets they'll take one look at the board and know xD.

We'll be using High Elves V Chaos. I'll be using chaos and the army is nothing but loads of marauders, some hounds, and 5 WoC. The elf list contains Archers, Seaguard, Swordmasters, Dragonknights and a Boltthrower, oh and a Mage.

This way the newbie gets to experience all aspects of the game with an army that's pretty good at each aspect. They can decide from there when they go away what type of army they want, and more importantly, there is a margin of error for the high elf player where if they don't think their moves through, they could lose to my Marauder horde.

Oh, and since its Elves pasting Vikings (with some made-up fluff) it should also be FUN. Apparently a word lost to some gamers these days xD

Izural wrote:
This is weirdly apropos because I am actually running intro games for newbies at my local gaming club this week. What i've done is make it so their army has a distinct advantage, it won't seem like it to them, but to vets they'll take one look at the board and know xD.

We'll be using High Elves V Chaos. I'll be using chaos and the army is nothing but loads of marauders, some hounds, and 5 WoC. The elf list contains Archers, Seaguard, Swordmasters, Dragonknights and a Boltthrower, oh and a Mage.

This way the newbie gets to experience all aspects of the game with an army that's pretty good at each aspect. They can decide from there when they go away what type of army they want, and more importantly, there is a margin of error for the high elf player where if they don't think their moves through, they could lose to my Marauder horde.

Oh, and since its Elves pasting Vikings (with some made-up fluff) it should also be FUN. Apparently a word lost to some gamers these days xD

If you're teaching mechanics to new players this works but otherwise I think you're gimping yourself a bit too hard. I say you need a mage because it will teach them the importance of dispelling & when to hold dice for the next spell.

How do you tone down your army to make the game fun for noobs???

You don't... you must crush all before you! See them driven... and hear the lamentation of the neckbeards!