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This seems pretty clear to me, but here goes:

2-5 on the D-weapons table says "suffers a penetrating hit that causes D3 hull points"
So, does the serpent shield work in this instance to change that to a glance on a 2+?
On a similar note, does this work for the ork ramshackle rule?

If either of these abilities work and turn the hit to a glance on a 2+, are the d3 hull points still inflicted?

I would argue that you could, but that it would become a "glancing hit that causes D3 hull points".

It says the Pen causes the D3 HP loss, so if no Pen, then no D3 HP loss.

If it downgrades to a Glance, then it is just the 1 HP removed.

As I read it.

The penning hit causes the model to lose d3 Hull points instead of 1.

Penetrating hits are downgraded to glancing hits from front/side on a 2+.

normally both cause only 1 HP loss.

There is no reason serpent shield would do more than downgrade the penetration to a glance, It doesn't change the loss of HPs from a non destroyer hit.

Glancing Hits
If a glancing hit was scored, the vehicle loses 1 Hull Point.

Penetrating Hits
If a penetrating hit was scored, the vehicle not only loses 1 Hull Point, but also suffers additional damage.

the normal downgrade of the hit from penetrating to glancing doesn't affect the HP loss, as the hit from a destroyer is normally a penetrating hit +d3 hps, (you still roll on the pen table..). And the wording of Serpent shield says nothing in regard to changing the amount of HPs lost to 1.

so all you get to change is the status of the hit from glance > pen.

blaktoof wrote:

the normal downgrade of the hit from penetrating to glancing doesn't affect the HP loss, as the hit from a destroyer is normally a penetrating hit +d3 hps, (you still roll on the pen table..). And the wording of Serpent shield says nothing in regard to changing the amount of HPs lost to 1.

You're right, it doesn't. But it doesn't need to. It's a single penetrating hit which causes additional damage.

The wording for D-weapons states that the penetrating hit causes d3 hullpoints. If it's downgraded to a glance, and glancing hits do not cause additional damage as set out by the penetrating hit section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To highlight my point, consider the difference in wording from;

"suffers a penetrating hit that causes D3 hull points"

-to-

"suffers a penetrating hit and causes D3 hull points"

the key being the RAW implies its the penetrating hit that causes the d3 hullpoints.

That wouldn't work...

"suffers a penetrating hit that causes D3 hull points" causes 1 to 3 hull points.

"suffers a penetrating hit and causes D3 hull points" causes 2 to 4 hull points (one for the pen and the additional d3.

The old interpretation was that it was a Penatrating hit, and caused D3 hull points.

Since they updated the D chart though it looks like it is no longer the case.

It is now a penatrating hit that (instead of rolling on the vehicle damage table) causes D3 hull points.

This means, sadly, that if you have yours serpent shield up that it just becomes a glance and only deals 1 hull point.

ItsPug wrote:
That wouldn't work...

"suffers a penetrating hit that causes D3 hull points" causes 1 to 3 hull points.

"suffers a penetrating hit and causes D3 hull points" causes 2 to 4 hull points (one for the pen and the additional d3.

Not the point I was trying to make

Eihnlazer wrote:
The old interpretation was that it was a Penatrating hit, and caused D3 hull points.

Since they updated the D chart though it looks like it is no longer the case.

It is now a penatrating hit that (instead of rolling on the vehicle damage table) causes D3 hull points.

This means, sadly, that if you have yours serpent shield up that it just becomes a glance and only deals 1 hull point.

The penetrating hit might be only D3 HP, but it's still a penetrating hit and rolls on the table.

Blacktalos, where do you see that?


I have looked comprehensibly at the D weapon rules and it never even mentions rolling on the vehicle damage chart.

If youre told something causes a penetrating hit, you then roll on the chart, as that is a basic rule. Why else would it say "causes a pen. hit..." ? It could have just said "causes D3 hull points"

Nos answered for me: Where in D-Weapons does it say "Do not roll on the chart"?

In the same sentance where it says if it scores a hit it causes D3 hull points.


The effect is clearly explained. You dont have to add anything to it.

Eihnlazer wrote:
In the same sentance where it says if it scores a hit it causes D3 hull points.


The effect is clearly explained. You dont have to add anything to it.

So you have a penetrating hit. What do the rules say about penetrating hits?

It has a Penetrating Hit with D3 Hull Points lost instead of 1.
Since it's a penetrating hit, you still roll on the table. Nothing in the Destroyer rules takes that away.

So unless you have a quote where the BRB tells us to NOT roll on the table?

The BRB states that when hit with a destroyer hit you roll on the chart to see what happens.

Do you see anywhere on the chart where it says to roll on the vehicle damage table? Cause i sure dont.

I think we should be working on the language of the rule to make the wave serpents better, they aren't good enough.

They certainly dont need help Matt, but I cant see any other way to play it using the current rules.

I dont even use any Str D shooting since i feel it doesnt belong in non-apoc. 40k.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The BRB states that when hit with a destroyer hit you roll on the chart to see what happens.

Do you see anywhere on the chart where it says to roll on the vehicle damage table? Cause i sure dont.

The chart says "Suffers a penetrating hit", what are the normal rules when you inflict a Penetrating hit on a vehicle? The fact that it does D3 hull points is irrelevant in that case, its just an extra thing D weapons do

Eihnlazer wrote:
The BRB states that when hit with a destroyer hit you roll on the chart to see what happens.

Do you see anywhere on the chart where it says to roll on the vehicle damage table? Cause i sure dont.

I do. The rules for a penetrating hit require it.
Why are you ignoring the rules for resolving a penetrating hit?

Eihnlazer wrote:
The BRB states that when hit with a destroyer hit you roll on the chart to see what happens.

Do you see anywhere on the chart where it says to roll on the vehicle damage table? Cause i sure dont.

I see where in the brb it states you roll upon the chart if you suffer a pen hit though.

Does not limit it to just being from rolling armour pen.

Again: why bother saying a pen result if all it does is act as d3 glances instead? Rules tend to do something, you're claiming you ignore it

Penetrating Hit rules require you to roll on the damage chart and it also causes the loss of one Hull Point.

A D weapon result of 2-5 cause a Penetrating Hit and modifies the single Hull Point lost to d3 Hull Points lost. Nowhere does it modify or negate the requirement to roll on the Penetrating Hits chart.

So yes, you still roll on the chart.

Re the original question, while it downgrades the Pen to a Glance, IMO it still causes d3 HP damage.

Well apparently im outnumbered.


To me its readily clear that you just follow the chart and dont add anything else, however nothing i say will change your minds so i defer to the majority.

Eihnlazer, it's not a question of being outnumbered.
I was outnumbered on the Void Shield Generator Rule and was still correct.

However in this case i will try to convince you as to why you are in error:
When you have rolled on the D Table, you get a result: "The model suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to loose D3 hull points instead of 1."

Now if you look at page 75, the text says: "If a penetrating hit was scored, the vehicle not only loses 1 Hull Point, but also suffers additional damage."

Now you have to follow page 75, always. But it says you loose 1 HP. the D-Weapon table says you loose D3 instead.
So the phrase technically becomes:

"If a penetrating hit was scored, the vehicle not only to loose D3 hull points instead of 1, but also suffers additional damage."

So in total, the Vehicle has to loose D3 HP and roll on the table.

Any clearer?

All serpent shields and ramshackle say is it downgrades the hit to a glance. It dosent say anywhere that it reduces the lost hull points. So if you roll a D3 and get 3, you take 3 hull points, but don't roll on the pen chart 3 times.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Well apparently im outnumbered.


To me its readily clear that you just follow the chart and dont add anything else, however nothing i say will change your minds so i defer to the majority.

Yes, it's clearly group-think that is your opposition and not the actual rules.
You haven't answered my question - You have a penetrating hit. Why are you not resolving that penetrating hit?

 Orock wrote:
All serpent shields and ramshackle say is it downgrades the hit to a glance. It dosent say anywhere that it reduces the lost hull points. So if you roll a D3 and get 3, you take 3 hull points, but don't roll on the pen chart 3 times.

But these rules cause you to not suffer a penetrating hit, therefore there is no penetrating hit to cause D3 hull points of damage. The hull point damage is a consequence of the penetrating hit: "penetrating hit that causes D3 hull points".
If it said "Causes a penetrating hit and D3 hull points" it would be a different story no?

Mad_Proctologist wrote:

 Orock wrote:
All serpent shields and ramshackle say is it downgrades the hit to a glance. It dosent say anywhere that it reduces the lost hull points. So if you roll a D3 and get 3, you take 3 hull points, but don't roll on the pen chart 3 times.

But these rules cause you to not suffer a penetrating hit, therefore there is no penetrating hit to cause D3 hull points of damage. The hull point damage is a consequence of the penetrating hit: "penetrating hit that causes D3 hull points".
If it said "Causes a penetrating hit and D3 hull points" it would be a different story no?

It would be. It would also change the damage from 1-3 HPs to 2-4 HPs.