Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Turn 1 he had declared the shield front facing on this 500 pt knight out of White Dwarf . It's shield is way crazy better than a reg. Knight I think it was a 3++.

Turn 2 he doesn't declare a facing I guess he forgot.

My turn 2 I had 11 Jokaero shooting las cannons at his side and about another 3 hitting his front. He wanted to change the the shield to the side facing I said no way and I don't think you even get the front shield. I relented and let him have it to the front would you have allowed it since he forgot to call a facing?

He decides a facing before your shooting phase iirc so he was correct to try and put the shield facing 11 jakero.

Picking a facing for the ion shield is a mandatory action (and is done at the start of the enemy shooting phase, not there own). He always has to have a shield up. Also since he does it during your shooting phase he should clearly see who will be shooting at it and use that knowledge to decide of a facing.

Also since its a mandatory mechanic, it's both players' responsibility to remember to do them.

As long as you gave him ample time to decide to declare which facing and he forgot its his bad, sometimes when you speed play through phases its easy to forget .... If he didn't declare the shield change to the sides I would say that it stays facing the front. Since declaring the shield the turn 1 at the front I would assume that it stays active on whichever side was originally declared until changed - if not its extremely punishing for a simple mistake of forgetting to declare the change (just losing the invul save outright), bad enough he forgot to change it to the preferred facing.

Declaring jink is something at my local scene that we have started clarifying with opponents if they are taking the jink save or not (instead of just rolling and hitting then "well wait I was going to jink"), leads to less conflicts due to forgetfulness.

Since you can change your facing during the opponents shooting phase (at the start), if you had not shot at it yet, you should have let him. Good sportsmanship and all.

Good to know thanks all.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Since you can change your facing during the opponents shooting phase (at the start), if you had not shot at it yet, you should have let him. Good sportsmanship and all.

I have enough trouble remembering all the timings of all my own rules, it's not my fault for not remembering my opponents also!

And yes, though once you start shooting it's all biased because they are going to pick the facing your shooting at. I think we once resolved this at a compromise of flat 5+ save for that resolution.

But in a tournament, I wouldn't have compromised

Then again I seem to perform a running narrative as I'm playing, so I actually talk about moving phases, so they'll know I've stopped moving before I start shooting. [<Edit; see, forgot powers phase... ...]>

Actually its compulsory, so you have to remember it as well. It MUST be declared, no ifs or buts.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Picking a facing for the ion shield is a mandatory action (and is done at the start of the enemy shooting phase, not there own). He always has to have a shield up. Also since he does it during your shooting phase he should clearly see who will be shooting at it and use that knowledge to decide of a facing.

Also since its a mandatory mechanic, it's both players' responsibility to remember to do them.

No it's not.

You are right that it is a mandatory mechanic, YOUR mandatory mechanic not mine. Tell me where it says in any rule book for any game that I need to remind you of your rules.

Dont give me the good sportsmanship bull crap argument either, good sportsmanship also entails you understanding how to play your army correctly.

That last sentence wasnt directed at you Crown.

It is still a mandatory mechanic, if it is forgotten it must be rectified.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is still a mandatory mechanic, if it is forgotten it must be rectified.

I agree 100%. Tell me how in all fairness you would rectify it using the OP's situation?

 Boyofdestiny205 wrote:

No it's not.

You are right that it is a mandatory mechanic, YOUR mandatory mechanic not mine. Tell me where it says in any rule book for any game that I need to remind you of your rules.

Not reminding your opponent of there effects is a form of cheating. Its on the same level as "misremembering" a rule or "conveniently forgetting" a rule that hinders you. If you know your opponent has an effect (that is mandatory) and you remember it but they don't and you let them play with out it, its cheating.

 Boyofdestiny205 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is still a mandatory mechanic, if it is forgotten it must be rectified.

I agree 100%. Tell me how in all fairness you would rectify it using the OP's situation?

He'd get to use it on the side as that is where the overwhelming majority of the firepower is coming from.

Since the mandatory selection of the shield placement takes place after the movement but before shooting there shouldn't be a problem.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Boyofdestiny205 wrote:

No it's not.

You are right that it is a mandatory mechanic, YOUR mandatory mechanic not mine. Tell me where it says in any rule book for any game that I need to remind you of your rules.

Not reminding your opponent of there effects is a form of cheating. Its on the same level as "misremembering" a rule or "conveniently forgetting" a rule that hinders you. If you know your opponent has an effect (that is mandatory) and you remember it but they don't and you let them play with out it, its cheating.

Dont get me wrong I do agree with you partially.

The point I am trying to make is the fact I shouldn't have to remember someone else's rule, even more so in a tournament setting because I have enough of my own stuff to remember. Should I know the rules inside and out of everything my opponent puts on the table? Yes I should. Am I required to? No.

If I have never heard of the rule and it is not a model I am using then I am not willfully neglecting the rule seeing as I have no experience with it. Therefore it is not a form of cheating because it is not model in my army so I am not required by any means to understand exactly how said model reacts or what special rules apply.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Boyofdestiny205 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is still a mandatory mechanic, if it is forgotten it must be rectified.

I agree 100%. Tell me how in all fairness you would rectify it using the OP's situation?

He'd get to use it on the side as that is where the overwhelming majority of the firepower is coming from.

Since the mandatory selection of the shield placement takes place after the movement but before shooting there shouldn't be a problem.

Tell me how that is fair for both parties.

If you "forget" to do something yet still reap all the benefits of the best possible outcome for you then why would anyone remember any rules? Where is the accountability?

Sure it should be rectified and IMHO I would have done (in a friendly game) it the exact same way as the OP stated. Whatever the facing was in the previous turn it should stay that way. But here is the rub, if you didn’t follow the mandatory rules of your model/war gear why should you get the benefit of using it then? As is said above, where is the accountability?

As a fairly new player, I'm not very familiar with many factions outside of Orks. They are all I play. I face mostly MEQ opponents, so I've begun to gradually understand their rules, and occasionally face a Necron opponent. As such, it would be overwhelming for anyone to expect me to remember the individual special rules for every single faction and their models off the top of my head.

It's my opponent's job to remember his rules. Not mine. My job is to remember all of my own rules. I'm an honest player, and if I'm told how a unit/special rule works, I'm typically pretty good about remembering it from then on. But not always. I'll remind someone of a forgotten rule if I happen to catch it and remember how the rule worked, etc. But I really shouldn't have too.

This is why I liked the changes they made in Magic. If a card had a mandatory effect, and the owning player forgot, then the effect is not applied for that turn. Of course, your opponent can remind you of an effect you've forgotten, then the game must go back and rectify the missed effect. What Magic did was basically say; We aren't going to punish your opponent for missing the triggers of YOUR cards. If you missed a beneficial trigger, thats too bad, your opponent isn't forced now to remind you so they don't get docked by the judge. But, they can remind you off your negative effects if you try to 'forget' they exist."

Especially in a tournament setting, is where I'd get more adamant about not babysitting my opponent. 40K is already pretty crazy to keep track of, and thats with just your own stuff. I really don't have the time, nor mental state to read every single codex from to back so I can remind my opponent to utilize his 500 Point model properly. If you're there to win, you need to be on the ball and know your gak. Write it down if you have too. I have my entire army on paper every time I play a game, and bold special rules and things I may be bound to forget. I go over my list every phase to make sure I didn't miss anything.

The problem is if you're halfway through your shooting phase. Would the shield to the side have changed how any of your other shooting was resolved?

-Matt

We always play it as the shield stays on the facing that was last called. If you forget to call it on the shooting phase then it's your loss but the shield is still up. It just didn't switch to a different facing.

It's the responsibility of the owning player to declare his shield placement. It's also the responsibility of the opponent, if he is aware of the rule, to remind him to make that declaration.

If it's a mandatory mechanic, then it has to happen. It's not the same as reminding an opponent to, for example, shoot or assault with a particular unit, or use something like a Nova Reactor (since these are all optional mechanics).

If the opponent isn't familiar or doesn't know how it works, then that grants some leeway. However, in this example, the OP knew the shield facing should have been declared and was (I presume) hoping that forgetting to declare it would default to "not being active on any facing" or "choose the worst facing because you forgot." To me, that's not only breaking the rules, but also bad sportsmanship.

It's the same situation as reserves. Reserve rolls must occur. If my opponent forgets, I will remind them. Not just because it could be either good or bad (sometimes having reserves come in later is a benefit), but because it's a required roll.

DoW

It's a rule that must not be skipped and therefore, both players should remember it.

HOWEVER, the player who fields the Knight is expected to be fully knowledgeable of his army's rules and is more obliged to remember mandatory rules.

If there was a situation where forgetting said rule would be decisive (in this case, it's not as you have to declare the facing before shooting nevertheless), I would ask players to roll and let the dice decide where the shielding goes along with warning (no Card Offense) the Knight player.

I have not played alot with my knight, but we simply decided that the shields would be to the front anytime it was forgotten (because it WILL be forgotten).
That sems fair enough for both players, because the front is usually a pretty decent option, but wont let the knght player just choose the best side.

I place a token on the base to denote facing, and simply move the token to a new facing as needed. Quick, easy, everyone can see which facing has the shield, and no one argues if I forgot the switch it because we can all plainly see where it's at.

I'd suggest doing the same.

SJ

I have a knight and still had no idea how the rule worked. I used mine once but always just declared mine on the start of the turn. I had no idea how it worked lol. Good to actually know the correct rule. I never used it in a tournament so I didn't get in depth.

I like the token idea. I will definitely use that.

As the shield facing is declared during your turn, you do have to provide him the opportunity to make the declaration. It's just like the new Jink rule, you need to give your opponent the time to decide if they will Jink before you start rolling the dice.

Now, if he had ample time to make his decision, but still forgot about it, then, yes, I would say the shield would remain in the last selected facing.

Now, here's a counterpoint to some of the arguments. What if there was a mandatory negative effect on one of your own units that you forgot to do earlier in the turn (say, Soul Blaze, for example). Would you still resolve it later in the turn when it was remembered, or would you say "oh, well, oops, we forgot it, we'll do it next turn"?

Hard to say, I have done both depending on the situation.

 Boyofdestiny205 wrote:
You are right that it is a mandatory mechanic, YOUR mandatory mechanic not mine. Tell me where it says in any rule book for any game that I need to remind you of your rules.

M:TG.

Dont give me the good sportsmanship bull crap argument either, good sportsmanship also entails you understanding how to play your army correctly.

Sure. But being forgetful isn't failing to understand how to play your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Now, here's a counterpoint to some of the arguments. What if there was a mandatory negative effect on one of your own units that you forgot to do earlier in the turn (say, Soul Blaze, for example). Would you still resolve it later in the turn when it was remembered, or would you say "oh, well, oops, we forgot it, we'll do it next turn"?

As soon as I remember I offer to resolve it (normally it's Instinctive Behavior for me). If my opponent tells me not to worry about it, I won;t.