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Howdy,

I was looking into the stealth suits, and had a bit of an "effectiveness" question.

Lets say we have a stealth team. The suits that they wear confer a 3+ armor save.

Then they are also given the Stealth and Shrouded special rules. Stealth offers a +1 to its cover save. Shrouded offers a +2. So there is a "free" 4+ cover save.

The shield generators confer a 4+ invulnerable save at 25 points apiece (and their one wargear slot).

So we have:
Armor: 3+
Cover: 4+ (at least)
Invuln: 4+

From the looks of it the invuln save is only useful in the case where a weapon has AP3 (AP2 and AP1 bypass invuln saves) and also ignores cover (and doesn't prevent invuln saves), since only one save can be used per wound.

Is it safe to say that the shield generator wargear is a complete waste on stealthsuits? I'm quite new to all of this, so perhaps I cannot creatively think up of situations that bypass the other two saves, but not the third. Also: if I have the rules wrong I would appreciate being corrected.

Thank you in advance.

AP has no effect on Invulnerable Saves. A model with an Invuln save gets it only if his armour/cover saves are negated.

So sample situations:
Stealth Suits are in cover behind some Terrain (5+ cover).

Space Marines shoot at them with boltguns. AP5 does not go through armour, however, their cover save is better (2+), as such they use the cover save to try to negate the wounds.

Same squad fires a Flamer at the unit of Stealth Suits. Since the Flamer (Template weapon) Ignores Cover, you would then use their normal Armour Save of 3+.

Finally, a Heldrake drops a Bale Flamer on them (Template weapon). Since this Ignores Cover, and has a strong enough AP to go through the armour, th Stealth Suits would rely on their 4+ Invulnerable save.

on a 1 wound model, shield generators are too frickin costly.

hell, I dont even take em on my commander (prefer the iridium)

Stealth suits look cool, but have little purpose in the game.

Thanks a bunch for the answers guys. I'm not sure where I got the idea that AP affects invuln saves.

So lets do a little thought experiment, just for the hell of it. I want to make the most expensive stealthsuit squad possible. I figure this is how I would do it:

Base cost 90
Add 3 models 90
2 Fusion 10
Shield (6) 150
Shas'vre promotion 10
Homing Beacon on Shas'vre 10
Marker Light on Shas'vre 5
2 marker drones on Shas'vre 24
Bonding knife on all non-drone models 6

This brings our total up to 395 points. Could get about a bajillion kroot for that price.

How would you make the most "powerful" and cost effective squad? I feel like there is a lot of fat to cut out here, starting with switching wargear from the Shield Generators to the Stimulant injectors (reduce total price by 60(335) and granting an always-useful 5+ FNP wound prevention).

Still, I cant see any way to justify fielding one of these squads. A shame, really, because they do look cool.

Thanks in advance.

Stealth suits are pretty cool. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Check out the stealth suit section of my Tau tactica article (in sig) where I have devoted a paragraph to explain how to best use them and leave feedback

A phrase you might want to live by with your stealth suits is "boys over toys".

Sir Arun has a good write up on them. I would say the either use them in a minimum squad for the infiltrating homing beacon, or a full squad of BCs.

Without marker light support they will be a thorn in someones side that is hard to remove without ignores cover. With marker light support they can wipe out light infantry and glance light vehicles to death.

For your hypothetical max point squad you could get a minimum squad for homing and a dakka squad with points to spare!

The "boys over toys" does not apply to stealth suits much. you want to give them the biggest toy-crisis suit.

Seriously, everything stealth do-crisis do better. the only valid reason to stealth suits last edition was the drone blob where you could get 2 drones per suit, giving you a huge unit of 2+ cover saves.

 Sir Arun wrote:


hell, I dont even take em on my commander (prefer the iridium)

i use both
and yeah i dont think they worth/need it, firewarrioes need it more ,and its super needed in XV batlesuits , at least in my army
for steal suid use the failsafe detonator

Shield generators about double the cost of a stealth suit without significantly increasing survivability outside of close combat. To be honest, if your stealth suits are in close combat the. Something has gone horrendously wrong and you want them to die quickly so you can shoot whatever it is that grabbed them on your next oppourtity.

If you want them to be more survivable in general, Stumulant Injectors make a nice touch, giving them an extra 5+ on top of their normal save.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The "boys over toys" does not apply to stealth suits much. you want to give them the biggest toy-crisis suit.

Seriously, everything stealth do-crisis do better. the only valid reason to stealth suits last edition was the drone blob where you could get 2 drones per suit, giving you a huge unit of 2+ cover saves.

Agreed.

But even then don't slap Shields or Stims on all your crisis suits. Better off just getting more suits.

I'd rather just take Shadowsun as one of my HQ choices and give the cover save benefit to whatever squad she joins anyway. I have a "logical extremes" of this idea thread over in the Tactics section right now that really isn't practical, but for most purposes a squad of crisis suits with Shadowsun would be a better investment than the stealth suits in my opinion.

Actually, there is a case in favor of stims on crisis suits.
(This post evolved to a big "when to buy FnP" theorycraft across the entire list of codcies)

FnP on a regular 5+ roughly translates for 50% more wounds on the model, meaning its like buying an extra wound per 15 points in case of stims on crisis suits. (50% more wounds as it blocks 33% of the wounds meaning you need 3 for every 2 you would have needed without and very few things go pass FnP but do not ID, the ID mechanic makes it more useful on people who have higher T values due to less ID risks)

And if your suit is a non-suicidal one in an enclave army, say missile suit or plasma suit (less so burst and flame, they are just much cheaper) you turn a 53 point model into a 68 point model that has 1.5 times the wounds.

So, in effect its an 28.3% increase in price, for 50% increase in wound count. massively effective in durability, though quite a hit on offense. its like trading your 5 suits to 4 suits with 3 wounds each for 7 points. you go down 2 guns, but go up 2 wounds total. having 12 wounds on your 272 is a massive edge over 10 wounds in your 265, though the lost firepower is 2 plasma guns/missile pods, and that's not little.
Given crisis suit status as good in mobility and tactical use, brutally effective offensively (nearly unmatched at every setup-and the ones who beat it usually have harder time to deploy these weapons) yet have very low durability per cost (lower than sternguards) it might be worthwhile for an army that is heavy on crisis suits like enclaves to consider it to have a model-less increase to its woundcount, as he already has the "blow stuff up" section rather covered. it makes the army less of a glass cannon as it takes away some of the cannon shells in order to reinforce the cannon itself. sort of a fine-tuning mechanic, rather then a direct power trade. slightly less lethal, slightly more durable.

Also, broadsides are 65->80 increase for the same extra wound, this time a mere 23.1% price increase involved for 50% wound increase, making it even more worthwhile, the issue here is that broadsides often want a target lock, and they can't have both.


Now, the question is, where do you draw the line of "FnP is a right investment.", my answer is that below 20% of the unit cost, with the assumption that the unit itself is worth buying without the FnP as well then FnP is a no-brainer and should ALWAYS be taken (for example, riptide bare bones go from 180 to 215, a 19.4% increase) with the exception of opportunity costs (there was another conflicting upgrade that was more important), the 20%-30% range is the "might be good", where it depends on the given unit and what you want from it (for example, suicide drop suits do fall into this range, but should not be given the FnP, as they ARE suicides) but usually good idea unless conflicting with a more important upgrade (usual case for broadsides.) closer it is to 20%, more likely to get it.
Anything over 30%, I'd consider beyond the efficiency rates (assuming I am paying that 30% for ONLY FnP, if I get more bonuses, I need to count their worth too)
When FnP is removable (granted by specific squad member), Id count as if the percentage increase is 1.5 times to double, depending how easy it is to remove. (character or not mostly, as in "can I look out sniper rounds?"

Applying to other units, a unit of noise marines with 7 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters comes to 261, meaning the icon upgrade takes them to 291, a 11.5% increase. as it is rather easy to remove, I'd count it as 23%. still well within the "good idea" area, and close to "no brainer", so I'd take it, pretty much every single time. (given that I took said noise marines)

Looking at plague marines now, a stock 10 man nurgle marines (non plague) costs 170, the stock 10 plagues are 240. that's a 40.1% increase! a very bad buy if you were buying only that. but you are also buying alot of other upgrades.
If we count all other changes as 2 PPM including the knives, fearless, init penalty and improved grenades (generously low given that CSM pay 2 each for regular CCW), its like the FnP was an increase from 190 to 240 and that's a mere 26.3% from here to plague marines, suddenly looking like a decent deal here. had you valued the changes as 3 PPM, the FnP is a 20% cost, a no-brainer. meaning, plague marines ARE superior to nurgle marines with CCW and the upgrade should ALWAYS be made if you got a nurgle lord. (unless you want the heavy gun or something. plagues also got the edge of 2 specials in 5 man teams)

That sums up what I understand of buyable FnP, but you can apply said logic to every army.
"Do I want Sang priest for foot slugger team?" defiantly when your team is 200 point or higher. actually, given he has a decent body and gives FC too, even at 150 point teams he might be a good choice. "for a jump team?" if the team is 250 points or higher, probably so. (even at 200, MIGHT be good, if the squad is big enough to take advantage of FC well.)

I like to run a squad of 6 with two fusion guns and two target locks. Shas'Vre included.

Just infiltrate them in cover near an enemy vehicle and melt it turn one. Using the target lock to shoot nearby infantry.

With stealth and shrouded, it's not hard to have a 3+ or +2 cover save.

Don't get an invulnerable save as you already have a great armor and cover save. If they are using their AP3 ignores cover weapons on your stealth team (of 3 men with minor upgrades the way I like to run it) than they aren't using it on something else.

I think probably the best mix for stealth suit war gear is target locks on the burst cannons and advanced targeting on the fusion blasters. A Strength 8, AP 1 shot that gets a precision hit on a 6 (ir a 5+ if you have the item on the Shas'vre) is an awesome weapon for plucking out important ( and multi wound) models from the enemy unit. The target locks on the burst cannons let them still contribute meaningfully by hosing another target if you are using the fusion blasters to hunt tanks and 2+.

Jefffar wrote:
I think probably the best mix for stealth suit war gear is target locks on the burst cannons and advanced targeting on the fusion blasters. A Strength 8, AP 1 shot that gets a precision hit on a 6 (ir a 5+ if you have the item on the Shas'vre) is an awesome weapon for plucking out important ( and multi wound) models from the enemy unit. The target locks on the burst cannons let them still contribute meaningfully by hosing another target if you are using the fusion blasters to hunt tanks and 2+.

If you give the shas'vre a marker light and target lock and also the fusion blaster he can have advanced targeting system and a target lock. The burst cannons are then free to get other upgrades. It isn't a 5+ precision anymore either. They changed it to 6+ as characters no longer inherently have it.

Stealth suits have cost issues as it is. A fully decked out unit with 5pt support slots (usually CF for me, targetlock for fusion ones) and the shas'vre rivals a fully decked out crisis team including drones. And thats with less kill potential since they cant get plasmas and only 2 fusions if you have all 6 suits purchased. No missile pods either, though they kinda dont need them.

The few times i field my stealth suits i either never lose them thanks to 2+ cover, they get charged to deny the cover and pen their armor with powerswords, the oddball weapon that ignores cover AND is AP3 or better (which is fairly rare outside hellchickens), or my dumbass moved them and they failed their danger check and armor save.

Thats 25pts per model if you buy shield generators, and im willing to bet for every situation you lose a stealth suit to a failed invul save you probably lost way way more to a failed 2+ or 3+ save. Not worth the points.

I also slap a vectored retro thruster on my suits if they have a teamleader with drones.

That way if an opponent gets lucky and closes into melee, I have the chance of at least getting out alive as long as 1 drone is there

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I think probably the best mix for stealth suit war gear is target locks on the burst cannons and advanced targeting on the fusion blasters. A Strength 8, AP 1 shot that gets a precision hit on a 6 (ir a 5+ if you have the item on the Shas'vre) is an awesome weapon for plucking out important ( and multi wound) models from the enemy unit. The target locks on the burst cannons let them still contribute meaningfully by hosing another target if you are using the fusion blasters to hunt tanks and 2+.

If you give the shas'vre a marker light and target lock and also the fusion blaster he can have advanced targeting system and a target lock. The burst cannons are then free to get other upgrades. It isn't a 5+ precision anymore either. They changed it to 6+ as characters no longer inherently have it.

I was thinking a unit of six Stealth Suits with two Fusion Blasters though. A single Fusion Blaster isn't dangerous enough, so I want to shoot two at whatever I am targeting. .

Also the Advanced Targeting System specifies a character has a Precision Hit on a 5+. This is why it's also fun to put an ATS on a Railside Shas'vre.

You didn't see that.