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So, per the FAQ for CSM, all psykers can generate from Daemonology.
Per Chaos Psychic Focus, if a psyker is marked, they automatically know the primaris common to there patron deity.

Since this makes a Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer automatically know (Tzeentch primaris name...) this means they have generated their minimum deity power. Does this mean they may now generated from Daemonology?

It's debatable whether or not Chaos Focus does count towards the required generated power for Chaos Marks (as its not specifically generated the psyker just knows that power). As such if it doesn't count towards the required generated power then TK Sorcerer would still have to roll a Tzeentch power and would not get a chance to generate a demonology power.

But if it does then yes they would get a chance to roll demonology.

Basically no. They get one spell. This HAS to be rolled from the lore of tzeentch. They also get the primaris.

But tbh you want a daemon casting your daemonology spells anyway

chaos focus is not a generated power, and they are required to generate at least one power from the discipline corresponding to their mark.

so although they may have access to daemonology, but they are not able to generate powers from it due to their ML not letting them generate any powers beyond the one they are required to generate from their mark.

The new chaos psychic focus rule automatically generates the primaris power of the relevant deity for your psyker. This satisfies the requirement of the chaos mark leaving you free to generate another power from another discipline.

An FAQ is needed I think.

Incorrect. CSP does NOT generate, according to the rules in the BRB for how you generate powers.

If you disagree, please cite rules.

Indeed.

as per the psychic rules, 'generating' a power means going to a table and rolling on it.

It's the same reason why, since they know the Horror automatically rather than rolling, I don't believe my Broodlords (sadly) get Dominion.

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed.

as per the psychic rules, 'generating' a power means going to a table and rolling on it.

It's the same reason why, since they know the Horror automatically rather than rolling, I don't believe my Broodlords (sadly) get Dominion.

Actually there are two ways to generate a Psychic Power.

The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section, 2nd Graph.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

You can generate a power by having it listed, or you can randomly generate one by rolling on the table.

I believe that the solution is easier than that.

Codex Chaos Space Marines - page 70:
If the psyker has a Mark of Chaos, or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God, they must roll at least one, and may roll up to half, of their powers on the table that correspondens to their patron deity.

See how they use the word roll. Getting the primaris power isn't rolling so it wouldn't satisfy above rule.

Ok so by this logic Daemons would get normal Psychic Focus in addition to Chaos Psychic Focus if they generate all their powers from one discipline as a) you're saying CPF power doesn't count as being generated and b) the psyker would gain the chaos daemon primaris power before the game starts and not during the course of the game. I could live with that but it doesn't seem right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as for the aspiring sorcerer situation this would make the Chaos Psychic Focus rule worthless as if they had to use their one roll on the deities discipline they would get the primaris anyway. It can't be right that the requirement of the mark would make the CSP redundant.

 DeathReaper wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed.

as per the psychic rules, 'generating' a power means going to a table and rolling on it.

It's the same reason why, since they know the Horror automatically rather than rolling, I don't believe my Broodlords (sadly) get Dominion.

Actually there are two ways to generate a Psychic Power.

The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section, 2nd Graph.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

You can generate a power by having it listed, or you can randomly generate one by rolling on the table.

I see where you're going with this but...

The Aspiring soucer dosen't automaticaly know any set powers. They are not listed with any. They have to roll for one from the tzeentch powers list as this is the chaos mark they have. So as they are ML1 that's all they get. As for the primas power they gain that power as they can only chose from that list. This gives them a total of three powers. The Tzeentch primas power, the one they rolled for on the zeencth table and Force.

If the pyker is ML2 or higher then they could, as they would have one warp point left to use. If you did this though you would loose the primas power as you generated another power from two different lists therfore loosing phykic foucus.

Noting in the FAQ's says otherwise.

 Godeth wrote:

I see where you're going with this but...

The Aspiring soucer dosen't automaticaly know any set powers. They are not listed with any. They have to roll for one from the tzeentch powers list as this is the chaos mark they have. So as they are ML1 that's all they get. As for the primas power they gain that power as they can only chose from that list. This gives them a total of three powers. The Tzeentch primas power, the one they rolled for on the zeencth table and Force.

If the pyker is ML2 or higher then they could, as they would have one warp point left to use. If you did this though you would loose the primas power as you generated another power from two different lists therfore loosing phykic foucus.

Noting in the FAQ's says otherwise.

Psychic focus is useless on a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer. They already get the primaris of the god that they are marked with though Chaos Psychic Focus, and they have to roll at least once on that table, so they will never get Psychic focus.

@Tonberry7 That is correct , Daemons get Psychic Focus in addition to Chaos Psychic Focus as the powers associated with Chaos Psychic Focus and Psychic Focus are never generated as per the rules in the 40K book.

So either way they a ML1 Thousands son choas pyker can't use Deamology.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section, 2nd Graph.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

Note that the word "generates" is only used in conjunction with the latter method - i.e. rolling on a table.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
And as for the aspiring sorcerer situation this would make the Chaos Psychic Focus rule worthless as if they had to use their one roll on the deities discipline they would get the primaris anyway. It can't be right that the requirement of the mark would make the CSP redundant.

Chaos Psychic Focus exists because if a Sorceror of Tzeench with Mastery Level 2 or more could never get psychic focus otherwise - he must generate 1 power from the Tzeench discipline, but he can't generate more than half from the Tzeench discipline and must instead generate his powers from Biomancy, Telepathy or Pyromancy. As a result, he should not be able to get psychic focus from either Tzeench or the other discipline(s). Chaos Psychic Focus acts as a 'consolation prize' to ensure marked sorcerors don't lose out relative to their unmarked brethren.

Yes, aspiring sorcerors and level 1 sorcerors don't benefit. But it's not really intended as a benefit, more a correction due to the way Codex: Chaos Space Marines was written (which predates the new psychic rules).

Unfortunately, Chaos Daemons also benefit because any wording of the rules which excluded them would also exclude daemon princes in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Which is why you get mastery 1 Tzeench Daemons with Flickering Fire AND Summoning AND another Daemonology power.

 Godeth wrote:
So either way they a ML1 Thousands son choas pyker can't use Deamology.

Indeed.

locarno24 wrote:
Chaos Psychic Focus exists because if a Sorceror of Tzeench with Mastery Level 2 or more could never get psychic focus otherwise - he must generate 1 power from the Tzeench discipline, but he can't generate more than half from the Tzeench discipline and must instead generate his powers from Biomancy, Telepathy or Pyromancy. As a result, he should not be able to get psychic focus from either Tzeench or the other discipline(s). Chaos Psychic Focus acts as a 'consolation prize' to ensure marked sorcerors don't lose out relative to their unmarked brethren.

Yes, aspiring sorcerors and level 1 sorcerors don't benefit. But it's not really intended as a benefit, more a correction due to the way Codex: Chaos Space Marines was written (which predates the new psychic rules).

This is all really just speculation on why the Chaos Psychic Focus rule exists which may or may not be correct.

It seems strange that the rules would be written so that ML1 Sorcerers are stuck with having to still generate from their deities discipline and get no benefit from Chaos Psychic Focus while ML1 Librarians have the freedom to choose from several disciplines and get the primaris as well due to focus.

I still think the Chaos Psychic Focus primaris may count towards the requirements of the mark and an FAQ would be of benefit.

Only if those ML1 sorcs are MARKED, of course. Which is a fairly hefty difference between them and a SM Libby.

Being marked has benefits, but also downsides. You have to show your loyalty...

Your opinion is noted, but the rules are actually totally clear on this. You are arguing intent, when the RAW is clear.

Yeah, you definitely have to ROLL for a god power aside from automatically generating a primaris if you're a marked sorc.

Ok well if these interpretations are correct then it's good news for my Daemon lists. If I have an ML3 Tzeentch psyker spamming rolls on malefic powers it gives them 3 rolls to fish for the good powers whilst still gaining Summoning and Flickering Fire.

And a basic ML1 Keeper of Secrets could potentially roll Invisibility and still gain Psychic Shriek and Lash. Awesome.

I suppose if I spawned anothe Keeper mid game though using Possession they wouldn't then gain Psychic Focus, only Chaos Psychic Focus. Is that right?

locarno24 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section, 2nd Graph.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

Note that the word "generates" is only used in conjunction with the latter method - i.e. rolling on a table.

Check the section, It is talking about generating Psychic Powers. then lists the two ways to do this. (The Context tells us that there are two ways to generate powers).

1: By having "one or more specific psychic powers listed"
or
2: By generating a "random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

 DeathReaper wrote:

Psychic focus is useless on a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer. They already get the primaris of the god that they are marked with though Chaos Psychic Focus, and they have to roll at least once on that table, so they will never get Psychic focus.

Psykic focus is useless on MARKED Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer. Only the Tson aspiring sorc, Daemon prices, Typhus, and Arhiman must be marked(or Daemon of)
Thank god kelly didnt force everything in the CSM dex to be marked. He screwed up enough.

 Exergy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Psychic focus is useless on a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer. They already get the primaris of the god that they are marked with though Chaos Psychic Focus, and they have to roll at least once on that table, so they will never get Psychic focus.

Psykic focus is useless on MARKED Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer. Only the Tson aspiring sorc, Daemon prices, Typhus, and Arhiman must be marked(or Daemon of)
Thank god kelly didnt force everything in the CSM dex to be marked. He screwed up enough.

Yes I was talking about marked Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers. sorry if I did not make that clear.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Ok well if these interpretations are correct then it's good news for my Daemon lists. If I have an ML3 Tzeentch psyker spamming rolls on malefic powers it gives them 3 rolls to fish for the good powers whilst still gaining Summoning and Flickering Fire.

And a basic ML1 Keeper of Secrets could potentially roll Invisibility and still gain Psychic Shriek and Lash. Awesome.

I suppose if I spawned anothe Keeper mid game though using Possession they wouldn't then gain Psychic Focus, only Chaos Psychic Focus. Is that right?

How are you rolling 3 times on the Malefic table with a ML3 Tzeentch Psyker? They have to roll at least once on their God's table.

And your ML1 Keeper of Secrets must roll his 1 power on the Slaanesh table.

Also I'm very confused as to how you've reached the conclusion that any Psyker dedicated to a God is eligible to receive Psychic Focus.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

And your ML1 Keeper of Secrets must roll his 1 power on the Slaanesh table.

Also I'm very confused as to how you've reached the conclusion that any Psyker dedicated to a God is eligible to receive Psychic Focus.

Codex: Daemons doesn't have a requirement to roll any powers on their god's discipline

 CrownAxe wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

And your ML1 Keeper of Secrets must roll his 1 power on the Slaanesh table.

Also I'm very confused as to how you've reached the conclusion that any Psyker dedicated to a God is eligible to receive Psychic Focus.

Codex: Daemons doesn't have a requirement to roll any powers on their god's discipline

Indeed. And the posters above reckon the chaos psychic focus power doesn't count as a generated power so if the psyker rolls everything from one discipline they will get normal psychic focus as well.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

And your ML1 Keeper of Secrets must roll his 1 power on the Slaanesh table.

Also I'm very confused as to how you've reached the conclusion that any Psyker dedicated to a God is eligible to receive Psychic Focus.

Codex: Daemons doesn't have a requirement to roll any powers on their god's discipline

I stand corrected. I had just made the assumption that Codex: Daemons worked the same way as CSM.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

And your ML1 Keeper of Secrets must roll his 1 power on the Slaanesh table.

Also I'm very confused as to how you've reached the conclusion that any Psyker dedicated to a God is eligible to receive Psychic Focus.

Codex: Daemons doesn't have a requirement to roll any powers on their god's discipline

Indeed. And the posters above reckon the chaos psychic focus power doesn't count as a generated power so if the psyker rolls everything from one discipline they will get normal psychic focus as well.

Actually the rules state that. They tell you how powers are generated - if you dont meet that requirement, you havent generated a power.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Ok well if these interpretations are correct then it's good news for my Daemon lists. If I have an ML3 Tzeentch psyker spamming rolls on malefic powers it gives them 3 rolls to fish for the good powers whilst still gaining Summoning and Flickering Fire.

Wrong.

Page 487 of the BRB (digital edition) under Psychic Focus:
If during the course of the game, that psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediatly loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

So, even if you argue he would get Flickering Fire through Chaos Psychic Focus and Summoning through Psychic Focus, you would immediatly lose Summoning.

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Ok well if these interpretations are correct then it's good news for my Daemon lists. If I have an ML3 Tzeentch psyker spamming rolls on malefic powers it gives them 3 rolls to fish for the good powers whilst still gaining Summoning and Flickering Fire.

Wrong.

Page 487 of the BRB (digital edition) under Psychic Focus:
If during the course of the game, that psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediatly loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

So, even if you argue he would get Flickering Fire through Chaos Psychic Focus and Summoning through Psychic Focus, you would immediatly lose Summoning.

Wrong.

The rules explcitly say that psychic powers are generated before the start of the game, which determines whether or not the psyker gains psychic focus.

For example, Sarah has a Psyker in her army with a Mastery Level of 3 who knows powers from the Telepathy and Divination disciplines. The Psyker has no Mark of Chaos, nor is it a Daemon of a Chaos God. The Army List Entry does not specify that the Psyker knows any specific powers, so Sarah chooses the Telepathy discipline and rolls a D6. The result is a 3, thus generating Terrify. Sarah then chooses the Telepathy discipline again, rolling another 3. This is re-rolled, the result being a 1 this time, generating Dominate. However, Sarah chooses to swap Dominate for the Telepathy primaris power, Psychic Shriek. For her Psyker’s final randomly generated power, Sarah chooses to generate a power from the Divination discipline. She rolls a 6, thus generating the psychic power Scrier’s Gaze. As Sarah decided to generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline, she does not benefit from the Psychic Focus rule. Finally, Sarah’s Psyker is equipped with a force weapon, so her Psyker also knows Force.

a Daemon of tzeentch may roll up to half their powers on their patron chart, but as it is may they are not required.

it would be possible to roll all powers on divination. You would get psychic focus for only generating powers from one discipline, and would get chaos focus as it is not a generated power.

Another good point for being able to get both focuses is that if you let non-generated powers prevents psychic focus then Force is technically a power and there for would prevent psychic focus as well.