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So, My group this week began what I was hoping would be a long and fun campaign in Pathfinder playing the "King Maker" campaign! After a solid 5 hour sessions my players could not agree how to proceed, the (At level one) confronted a grizzly bear and lost a player and also want to chase this parts big bad before they are ready. So for those who haven't seen the adventure path it is a free roam game very sandbox in design with objects on the map that have to be their for players to find. For example that grizzly bear that killed a player had to be their BUT they did not have to fight it right now, they could of legged it and come back later.

Anyway knowing my player like i do they will not start playing any better, nor have any of them read the players guide that you are meant to read before playing the path. So my question is, would it be ok if when they sleep next I...

A/ wake them up the next more 200 years in the future of the setting and run it with small modules in the setting and ignore the original adventure saving myself hours of reading

OR

B/ Slit or their throats through act of DM?

Suggestions?

I'd probably quit the group if you did either of those with me. Just make stuff up as you go and make it a true sandbox until they stumble on a plot point. It's your job as a GM to adapt to the players.

Or if you don't think they'll "start playing any better" just make your excuses and stop DMing the campaign. It sounds like you're not going to have much fun anyway.

 Brother Lem wrote:
So, My group this week began what I was hoping would be a long and fun campaign in Pathfinder playing the "King Maker" campaign! After a solid 5 hour sessions my players could not agree how to proceed, the (At level one) confronted a grizzly bear and lost a player and also want to chase this parts big bad before they are ready. So for those who haven't seen the adventure path it is a free roam game very sandbox in design with objects on the map that have to be their for players to find. For example that grizzly bear that killed a player had to be their BUT they did not have to fight it right now, they could of legged it and come back later.

Anyway knowing my player like i do they will not start playing any better, nor have any of them read the players guide that you are meant to read before playing the path. So my question is, would it be ok if when they sleep next I...

A/ wake them up the next more 200 years in the future of the setting and run it with small modules in the setting and ignore the original adventure saving myself hours of reading

OR

B/ Slit or their throats through act of DM?

Suggestions?

Can't you just be a good DM and make sure your players have fun with the adventure they want to play? You gave them the map. If they want to die against bears, you can at least make it fun. Or adjust the bear's stats so they barely survive, if you simply must have them follow some kind of plan.

Now, if they aren't having any fun at all... 200 years in the future it is! With new characters and maybe a new DM.

The game isn't going to be well served by letting them suicide a ton or by fundamentally changing the premise. It's certainly not going to be served by going all "Rocks fall. Everyone dies". You need to find a way to provide some clear goals, and gentle guidance on how to achieve those goals when they stall out themselves.

I can't say specifically what these would be without knowing your PCs, players or the current story though. Generally getting into a state like this kind of the result of bad starting conditions, which is probably more the module's fault then you or your players.

If your pc's are that dumb then hold their hands or drop the game. It might come as a surprise to some but some people make very terrible players.

If they want to chase the big bad, let them chase the big bad. Just keep him out of their reach until they're a high enough level to take him, with maybe one encounter where he curbstomps them but leaves them alive and flees for some reason (maybe reinforcements arrive, or he thinks they're dead or whatever).

Level them up against his lieutenants and mooks. Bandits unknowingly working for him etc. Throw in some investigation quests to try and work out who his mole is in the kings court (or whatever fits the campaign). Not every quest needs to be about combat. You can level them up without it whilst still disrupting the big bads plans, especially if he's more the scheming, behind the scenes type.

In other words, adapt to fit the players.

Thanks all,

The mass suicide option was more frustration then an actual plan. I will keep the big bad from their reach and hope that they get the idea that charging something they can't beat will end in death.

With my players the majority of them are hack and slash players and don't realise that you can gain experience from avoiding obstacles just as you can get experience knocking them down.

The module is a tad tricky in it's play, but I have hope they will come good with a few more sessions.

With this module, i didn't explain it to well. You can't actually change much in the way of encounters because they are designed as plot points. So although free roam like SKYRIM it is also like syrim in that you don't go fighting giants at level 1, because they just don't scale it to level.

I have decided that what I can do is perhaps have them encounter some bandit patrols (A banditr king is the big bad at this part of the adventure) and let them get a little roughed up and see if that deters them from wanting to run at the whole bandit camp. If that doesn't work and they still want to go for it perhaps I will have them captured, taken to the bandit camp and let them see first hand what they're dealing with so they can escape and come back when they are more prepared.

I won't say I'm the best DM out, but I do have experience and will continue to run it and alter it where I can that won't change the path to much....either that or they can wonder through this forest until they gain the levels to magically stumble on the next plot point!

Will Update after the next session, but as for the post was more venting frustration then actually planning mass suicide or time travel!

 Brother Lem wrote:

I will keep the big bad from their reach and hope that they get the idea that charging something they can't beat will end in death.

With my players the majority of them are hack and slash players and don't realise that you can gain experience from avoiding obstacles just as you can get experience knocking them down.

I have decided that what I can do is perhaps have them encounter some bandit patrols (A banditr king is the big bad at this part of the adventure) and let them get a little roughed up and see if that deters them from wanting to run at the whole bandit camp. If that doesn't work and they still want to go for it perhaps I will have them captured, taken to the bandit camp and let them see first hand what they're dealing with so they can escape and come back when they are more prepared.

If they are determined to go straight for the boss before they are the appropriate level, I say you should let them. And then let them die. Don't grudge kill them, but let their level one characters do what naturally happens when you fight a bandit king in his fortress surrounded by his army. Let the dice fall where they will and let the players die. Nothing teaches players that they need to start using their heads before their swords than a well-deserved, legitimate, and clean TPK. When I started D&D back in 2e, I lost plenty of characters due to my own stupidity. A big sword and 18(00) STR did not make me indestructible. I learned that the hard way. Your players need to learn that, too. Your players don't seem to be the type who would get captured and think "we are in the middle of a huge bandit camp; we should try to escape"... they seem like the kind of guys who would think "we are in the middle of a huge bandit camp; there is nowhere for the Big Bad to run to, let's get him!"

If they are hack-n-slash, do not run them through Kingmaker. Just don't. Abort, abort, abort! Pull the short handle and get out of there before that bird explodes. Apologise to your players, tell them that you don't think they would like the modual after all, and run them through something else. Hack n slash players want to hack and they want to slash. They don't want Skyrim; they want Call of Duty. There is nothing wrong with that, but you need to cater to your players' interests. Give them lots of stuff to stab and very little plot to worry about.

Going off what squidhills said if they do reach the boss let them see all your dice rolls and maybe even the boss' "character sheet".

Then if a TPK occurs they can't even whine that the guy was overpowered. They saw what he officially had and you weren't fudging anything.

'Course that could backfire if he rolls nothing but 1s and they kill him

I like that Idea of doing everything out in the open and letting them see, it might show them that it's not a charge in style adventure, it requires some other game aspects. As for rolling all 1's, if that happens good on them, sadly it just means the lesson will be lost on them!! Haha

 Brother Lem wrote:
Thanks all,

The mass suicide option was more frustration then an actual plan. I will keep the big bad from their reach and hope that they get the idea that charging something they can't beat will end in death.

With my players the majority of them are hack and slash players and don't realise that you can gain experience from avoiding obstacles just as you can get experience knocking them down.

The module is a tad tricky in it's play, but I have hope they will come good with a few more sessions.

With this module, i didn't explain it to well. You can't actually change much in the way of encounters because they are designed as plot points. So although free roam like SKYRIM it is also like syrim in that you don't go fighting giants at level 1, because they just don't scale it to level.

I have decided that what I can do is perhaps have them encounter some bandit patrols (A banditr king is the big bad at this part of the adventure) and let them get a little roughed up and see if that deters them from wanting to run at the whole bandit camp. If that doesn't work and they still want to go for it perhaps I will have them captured, taken to the bandit camp and let them see first hand what they're dealing with so they can escape and come back when they are more prepared.

I won't say I'm the best DM out, but I do have experience and will continue to run it and alter it where I can that won't change the path to much....either that or they can wonder through this forest until they gain the levels to magically stumble on the next plot point!

Will Update after the next session, but as for the post was more venting frustration then actually planning mass suicide or time travel!

Sorry I was so mean earlier. I was not having a good day.

Kill them all......its your job to make you worthless players suffer for their bad choices. And then kill the next characters they make with the bad guys that killed them this time....retribution is never ending. And neither is that bear

Have that bear hunt and kill every character these players ever make. Have the Bear kill their fantasy characters, their sci-fi i characters and their cyberpunk characters. Make the bear appear in cthulu mythos with tentacles coming out of it eyes and drive there characters mad before killing them.
Have the bear appear in Magic, wow the card game and uno. Phase 10 should be a trap designed by the bear to crush their spirits before he crushes their spines.

Set up 40k games and make a bear miniature out of a hammer so that when the battle gets going the bear comes and smashes their pitiful army to bits. Space marines chaos and necrons alike scattering like the wind before the bears awesome wrath.

Edit movies so that halfway through the bear appears and ruins their night. Dress up in a bear outfit and show up on dates they try to go to. Get really good at tekken and always play the bear and win with it. Stand outside their bedrooms in your bear outfit so that they weep and whimper under the blankets knowing that the bear is here ...for them

And when they break, beg for mercy and grovel at you feet pleading for it to end.... then you have won D&D

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Brother Lem wrote:
Thanks all,

The mass suicide option was more frustration then an actual plan. I will keep the big bad from their reach and hope that they get the idea that charging something they can't beat will end in death.

With my players the majority of them are hack and slash players and don't realise that you can gain experience from avoiding obstacles just as you can get experience knocking them down.

The module is a tad tricky in it's play, but I have hope they will come good with a few more sessions.

With this module, i didn't explain it to well. You can't actually change much in the way of encounters because they are designed as plot points. So although free roam like SKYRIM it is also like syrim in that you don't go fighting giants at level 1, because they just don't scale it to level.

I have decided that what I can do is perhaps have them encounter some bandit patrols (A banditr king is the big bad at this part of the adventure) and let them get a little roughed up and see if that deters them from wanting to run at the whole bandit camp. If that doesn't work and they still want to go for it perhaps I will have them captured, taken to the bandit camp and let them see first hand what they're dealing with so they can escape and come back when they are more prepared.

I won't say I'm the best DM out, but I do have experience and will continue to run it and alter it where I can that won't change the path to much....either that or they can wonder through this forest until they gain the levels to magically stumble on the next plot point!

Will Update after the next session, but as for the post was more venting frustration then actually planning mass suicide or time travel!

Sorry I was so mean earlier. I was not having a good day.

All is well, I deserved it for considering the above course of action in a free roam game!

 rayphoton wrote:
Kill them all......its your job to make you worthless players suffer for their bad choices. And then kill the next characters they make with the bad guys that killed them this time....retribution is never ending. And neither is that bear

Have that bear hunt and kill every character these players ever make. Have the Bear kill their fantasy characters, their sci-fi i characters and their cyberpunk characters. Make the bear appear in cthulu mythos with tentacles coming out of it eyes and drive there characters mad before killing them.
Have the bear appear in Magic, wow the card game and uno. Phase 10 should be a trap designed by the bear to crush their spirits before he crushes their spines.

Set up 40k games and make a bear miniature out of a hammer so that when the battle gets going the bear comes and smashes their pitiful army to bits. Space marines chaos and necrons alike scattering like the wind before the bears awesome wrath.

Edit movies so that halfway through the bear appears and ruins their night. Dress up in a bear outfit and show up on dates they try to go to. Get really good at tekken and always play the bear and win with it. Stand outside their bedrooms in your bear outfit so that they weep and whimper under the blankets knowing that the bear is here ...for them

And when they break, beg for mercy and grovel at you feet pleading for it to end.... then you have won D&D

This. Just this. A thousand times this.

 rayphoton wrote:
Kill them all......its your job to make you worthless players suffer for their bad choices. And then kill the next characters they make with the bad guys that killed them this time....retribution is never ending. And neither is that bear

Have that bear hunt and kill every character these players ever make. Have the Bear kill their fantasy characters, their sci-fi i characters and their cyberpunk characters. Make the bear appear in cthulu mythos with tentacles coming out of it eyes and drive there characters mad before killing them.
Have the bear appear in Magic, wow the card game and uno. Phase 10 should be a trap designed by the bear to crush their spirits before he crushes their spines.

Set up 40k games and make a bear miniature out of a hammer so that when the battle gets going the bear comes and smashes their pitiful army to bits. Space marines chaos and necrons alike scattering like the wind before the bears awesome wrath.

Edit movies so that halfway through the bear appears and ruins their night. Dress up in a bear outfit and show up on dates they try to go to. Get really good at tekken and always play the bear and win with it. Stand outside their bedrooms in your bear outfit so that they weep and whimper under the blankets knowing that the bear is here ...for them

And when they break, beg for mercy and grovel at you feet pleading for it to end.... then you have won D&D

And when they eventually kill that bear, it's children and clan hunt them till they leave the plane of existence....

Ok guys so an update.

We have finally corrected our course after numerous hours of campaign. To give a sense of the danger they face the PC's have been thrown up against numerous bandit attacks from ambushes, traps, all out assaults and even stumbling upon them in the forest. After a few beatings and narrowly missing out on a TPK the PC's have recognized the danger these bandits and these lands have for them. So they are gathering info, playing to their strength and building up on experience and knowledge before charging the big bad like a pubescent teenager in a cat house.

They have advanced through some of the free roam scenario's leading them to make some good allies in the stolen lands.


I am yet to kill and players in their sleep or invent time travel!

UPDATE:
Things are still going better

So we are currently playing a free roam campaign (King Maker) and as such players need to have reasons to explore a forest. They have just helped a low level cleric regain his lost temple. So we sat down for our weekly game and BAM worst thing a DM can have happen, I left my notes at home with what we were gonna do that night....

So then in a frantic wondering of what i was going to do one of my players said to another "Yeah, I just changed my alliance from LG to N, i don't play LG well" ...

So I make him roll a will save (rolls a 1) and bam he starts spewing his guts up and the party is off searching for the ingredients to try and help their friend recover from his sickened state.

Best three hour game of DnD we have had in a while, everyone who wasn't the spewing character enjoyed the fact that he couldn't swing a sword without spewing his guts and he enjoyed trying to guess what he did that caused the sudden sickened state. In the end the cleric was able to mix up a concoction for his sickened state but the internal battle and self conflict may take longer to come to terms with.