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'lo there.

I've recently been really interested in starting my own Crusade era Thousand sons army. I have the two basic forgeworld 30k books but I'm still unsure what to do with the information in them. I saw the allies matrix, but I couldn't figure out how the units fit into it and what I should do to proceed.

Any information on this and personal recommendations on how one should start up a 30k army are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

The tallest giraffe

Well, you can take 75% of a 40k army and be close.

Or pick a chapter/primarch you like and start there. Look for older bits (beakies were "new" at the time) and see what works.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/HORUS_HERESY_CHARACTER_SERIES

I think the best description of Space Marine Legion I've seen is think of it as Codex: Craftworld Space Marines. Each unit is specialised towards a certain role and you have to make sure that each unit is supported by another unit. The Crusade Army list is a complete army list in of itself.

As for selecting your forces, without doubt, the mainstay of a Legion force is its Legion Tactical Squad. Two full 20 man squads with a Vexilla is a solid base for any legion force, especially with fury of the legion. One thing to note is that each unit has a very high entry cost, but additional marines cost a lot less. IE. the first 10 marines are 15 points each and adding on additional marines cost 10 points, so it's generally better to buy bigger squads instead of multiple smaller squads. Praetor's are generally not considered worth it as they are expensive for what they do. Stick with centurions unless you really want to use a rite of war.

Beyond that, you have a massive choice of units and equipment and its an interesting challenge getting all the toys you want in a list. Want an infantry heavy list? You can do that with huge tactical squads, support squads (10 marines armed with identical special weapons - 10 Plasmaguns or 10 Volkite Calivers for fun and games) and heavy support squads (again, 10 marines all armed with the same heavy weapon). You can do an armoured phalanx (Check out the Armoured Spearhead rite of war) a drop pod force, air cavalry, etc.

I've currently got 2 Legions in the works - A White Scars force (replete with Jet Bikes, 20 man assault squad, Sicaran Tanks and all sorts of fast stuff) and an Alpha Legion force (lots of infiltrating troops and a Land Raider Proteus Squadron of 3 tanks for a huge wedge of AV 14 armour). Have a play with the list, make some armies and see what you like the look of. It's generally mentioned that a 30k list only starts to shine when you go over 2000 points, but you can make smaller lists - it's just more of a challenge to the get the toys you want. Bolter and Chainsword also has a dedicated 30k sub-forum and there's lots of good advice and tactics there.

Wait for the Thousand Sons to be released as 2 things are likely;

1) They will probably deviate from the standard a bit and thus your efforts to create an accurate force will result in some wasted purchases

2) There will be some ultra sexy 1k sons models that you'll be kicking yourself that you didn't wait for

Probably not the answer you wanted, but there you go.

Drasius wrote:
Wait for the Thousand Sons to be released as 2 things are likely;

1) They will probably deviate from the standard a bit and thus your efforts to create an accurate force will result in some wasted purchases

2) There will be some ultra sexy 1k sons models that you'll be kicking yourself that you didn't wait for

Probably not the answer you wanted, but there you go.

I think you could buy some tac marines and a centurion (use as a librarian) and be perfectly safe...

Has FW even updated 30k to work in 7th yet? Cuz 7th ed deeply feths up the incentive structures and point costs in terms of everything scoring and troops/dedicated having objective secured.

Not that I have heard, been out of the loop for a month or two. Legion simply has its own force structure which is different from 40k, no real problems. Theres a few things which can be implied for 7th but as my primary army I haven't had an issues with my friends. Terminators are scoring, thus they can objective secure for example.

Col. Dash wrote:
Terminators are scoring, thus they can objective secure for example.

In 7th, everything is scoring. Inferring objective secured for things that aren't troops doesn't seem right.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Terminators are scoring, thus they can objective secure for example.

In 7th, everything is scoring. Inferring objective secured for things that aren't troops doesn't seem right.

I think he means, Terminators could score before 7th as if they were a troops choice, so it makes sense for them to have Objective Secured now.

Exactly

Except that they don't have objective secured.

ImAGeek wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Terminators are scoring, thus they can objective secure for example.

In 7th, everything is scoring. Inferring objective secured for things that aren't troops doesn't seem right.

I think he means, Terminators could score before 7th as if they were a troops choice, so it makes sense for them to have Objective Secured now.

The problem is the 30k books are clearly balanced around 6th, where only troops were able to score. These books aren't just a random codex, over the 3 books there's 3 real army lists (crusade army lists with 2 mechanicum lists) as well as tons of rites of war that tell you what scores and changes the force org; all of these things written very clearly with the thought that only troops can score

Well like I said, if it says in 6th edition that they are scoring then it is pretty logical to assume that they get Objective Secured in 7th edition. Lets not read too deep into this, most people are not playing 30k in tournies thus in fun games and such common sense can be used.

It's illogical because 30k doesn't use battle forged or unbound and theit rules were balanced around only troops scoring. Here's an example; I'll take SoH rite of war that let's me take dedicated anvilus dreadclaws on my troops. Suddenly I have a ton of hyper mobile OS flyers...

Forgeworld's gotta clean this up, otherwise you pretty much gotta stick to the 6th ed book while playing it.

Not that this is inherently a problem.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not that this is inherently a problem.

It's more of a problem if you play 40k and 30k, because you may be used to all the changes of 7th edition and projecting those onto games of 30k which is using 6th.

ImAGeek wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Terminators are scoring, thus they can objective secure for example.

In 7th, everything is scoring. Inferring objective secured for things that aren't troops doesn't seem right.

I think he means, Terminators could score before 7th as if they were a troops choice, so it makes sense for them to have Objective Secured now.

Except such consistency is too much to ask for these days.

6th:
Pedro Kantor and Coteaz make an elite unit scoring.

7th:
Pedro Kantor makes his elite unit OS. Coteaz loses his rule.

At the very least the new psyker rules makes it so Logar isn't the best primarch ingame now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
At the very least the new psyker rules makes it so Logar isn't the best primarch ingame now.

Is there a psychic phase in 30k?

The psychic thing is the only problem I have had and thankfully with what I use its pretty minor. Sevatar is a reluctant psyker who in 6th edition gives a -2 to leadership. Not sure how that translates to 7th edition. For me though that is minor since its an ok power that only effects him and he is the only psyker I use.

Again though I have had no problems as all of my games are vs 40k armies. Terminators are OS according to their rules, and depending on the right of war used other unit types may be OS. Lost at why this is an issue as it is pretty clearly translated into 7th. Force org is what is listed in the HH book and lacks the perks of the 7th edition main book. Unbound is unbound and a non-issue for my group since no one plays it.

But yes FW is really lagging behind the ball by not having a 7th edition FAQ for HH. But then again, they might be thinking the same as me, its not that needed for HH as there are only some minor tweaks required.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
At the very least the new psyker rules makes it so Logar isn't the best primarch ingame now.

He is without a doubt the best primarch out now. He will be swinging at his brothers hitting on 3s or 4s while they are swinging back hitting on 6s. He still has guaranteed Invisibility.

valace2 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
At the very least the new psyker rules makes it so Logar isn't the best primarch ingame now.

He is without a doubt the best primarch out now. He will be swinging at his brothers hitting on 3s or 4s while they are swinging back hitting on 6s. He still has guaranteed Invisibility.

He can't take away fearless and run other primarchs down anymore so that's a nerf to him, he's probably still the best in individual combat, but there's much better support primarchs.

As for things receiving objective secured; that's a part of battle forged forces, which is something 30k doesn't have. Remember that a CAD is made up of specific force orgs while 30k has a distinct one, meaning that you don't have battle forged or unbound 30k armies, you have armies in the Age of Darkness

I'm actually in the process of making a 30k faq that I will send to forge world, yes it's going to be ignored but there is the slight possibility that I and others may spot something they missed and they adjust it.

Sevatar for example we have rules can only activate his powers on a 5 + rather than a 4+, simple and gets the reluctant psyker theme across, we also nerfed invisibility already so that helped tone down lorgar indirectly

Ahhh there is where we are having the difficulty in getting our points across. I interpret the basic 30k Force org as a Battleforged Force org with the extra detachments being CADs. Unbound isn't something we play or have any interest in playing so it has never come up.

Formosa wrote:I'm actually in the process of making a 30k faq that I will send to forge world, yes it's going to be ignored but there is the slight possibility that I and others may spot something they missed and they adjust it.

Sevatar for example we have rules can only activate his powers on a 5 + rather than a 4+, simple and gets the reluctant psyker theme across, we also nerfed invisibility already so that helped tone down lorgar indirectly

I actually emailed them about FAQs at the start of september and got the following in answer;

"Hi,
Thank you for your email. We are currently looking at what errata is required for our books due to the release of new codex's and the latest edition of the 40k rules. Once this is completed, we will release any required updates on PDF, via the downloads on our website. As this is a massive under taking it will take quite some time to complete, but we hope to have the first updates appearing in the next two weeks.


If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us."

Col. Dash wrote:Ahhh there is where we are having the difficulty in getting our points across. I interpret the basic 30k Force org as a Battleforged Force org with the extra detachments being CADs. Unbound isn't something we play or have any interest in playing so it has never come up.

The problem for me is that it's explicitly different and has restrictions that go against a normal Battleforged army

Well, thank you everyone on your advice on how to start my 30k army and how to interpret the psychic phase. Perhaps the responses were a little disproportionate to what I was expecting to learn from the question but there you are.