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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 techsoldaten wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?

For now, the best ranged anti-armor solution is Slannesh Havocs with Lascannons. You can use Endless Cacophony to give them 8 shots per turn. Make them Alpha Legion to make them more durable.

Wondering if 'ranged' is the best metric for CSM right now. Havocs 'win' by virtue of being able to take 4 guns w/ 48" range and a Mark, giving them access to the Stratagem. But they're pretty fragile, you can only take 5 T5 1W models. Most opponents will be equipped to take them out quickly in a game.

At mid-range, a unit of 3 Obliterators will have 12 shots and can also take a mark to double their shooting. While there's some randomness and Obliterators are not cheap, they typically outperform Havocs due to volume of shots and greater number of wounds.

The situation is dissatisfying. These 2 units are so efficient compared to everything else in the Codex but mediocre relative to ranged options for Loyalist armies. This is how our top shooting options compare with Deathwatch:

- For a little more than the cost of 1 Obliterator, I could take a 5-man Proteus Kill Team with 4 Frag Cannons. They'd have 8 S7 AP-2 D2 shots, plus a different shooting profile for anti-infantry, plus whatever the Watch Sargent is carrying, plus 10 wounds total for the unit. And I could deliver them in a Drop Pod for less than 100 points, and I could add additional ablative wounds in the form of Vets with Storm Shields and SIA Boltguns.

- For a little more than the cost 2 Obliterators, I could take a 10-man Indomitor Kill Team with 5 Heavy Bolt Rifles plus 5 Heavy Melta Rifles. The HMRs are S8 AP-4 Dd6+2. That unit is T5, 21 Wounds, 3+ Save.

- For a little less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, I could take an 8-man Deathwatch Terminator Squad with 5 TH / SS, 3 Power Fists, and 3 Cyclone Missile Launchers (in addition to other goodies.) That squad could be placed on the battlefield, teleport once per game anywhere it wants, and would have 6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots, in addition to 24 wounds and a 4++ invul save. It would be devastating in melee and most armies would not have a way to destroy it.

These differences in efficiency are magnified if the DW army optimizes for infantry. There are a few ways DW armies can put out 100+ S5 AP-2 D2 shots with rerolls to hit at 30"+ per turn for under 500 points.

So I question the usefulness of CSM ranged shooting in 9th edition. Our best shooting units are outclassed by the lowest-tier loyalist faction, who all happen to have delivery options that can bring them to mid-range anywhere on the board.

For reference, I played a Black Legion gunline most of 8th. It was optimized around lascannons and (sometimes) Scorpius Whirlwinds with rerolls to hit. I can't see a way to make ranged shooting work in 9th, it's a tax on melee units. And I'm having a hard time identifying favorable melee matchups, even massed Possessed have some hard counters.

EDIT: and don't get me started on Tanks / Dreadnoughts. Even Forgeworld.



I am kinda waiting for our codex to get a much needed revamp. But in the meanwhile, accepting the fact that our unts are fragile *because 1W marines). It seems like we are forced to become a "tricksy" army. A bit like gene stealer cults. So, go for secondaries like deploy scramblers, and put 2 units of cheap cultists or CSM squad into reserve. Have two units of Emperor's children terminators in deep strike and have them come down on turn 2 and 3 with pride of the prince to charge into combat.

We have to accept the fact that our army is too fragile. If we have all of it on the board on turn one and go for an all in shoot out or brawl, we will quickly run out of gas. So instead, maybe we should try and push expendable units one at a time onto midboard or enemy deployment objectives to take over their objectives, create problems, and force them to spend effort killing these. Only make a big push on turn 3 or 4, and hope we can last till end of game.

Now honestly, I think trying to play CSM in a "tricksy" way when we don't really have that many strategems for it is not the best. But until our codex comes out. It seems like the only way to keep up with the sheer firepower or meleepower of other armies. Feed some pieces of our army slowly and go for VP and secondaries, and keep our opponent from scoring primaries. And try and drag it out to turn 5.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, along the lines of being "tricksy" , here's a list I thought up.

Emperor's Children Patrol:

HQ: Sorceror
Troops: 10 Noise marines, sonic blastors, riding in
Transport: Rhino
Elite: 2 squads of 5 Terminators, combi bolters, lightning claws and icon of excess.
Heavy support: 1 squad of Havocs with 4 Lascannons.

Red Corsairs Patrol
HQ: 1 Chaos Lord with jump pack, black mace
Troops: 3 units of 5 CSM.
Fast Attacks: 2 squads of 5 warp Talons
Elites: 1 squad of 10 Berserkers, icon of wrath, Champion with power maul. riding in
Transport: Rhino

Nurgle Daemon Patrol
HQ: 1 poxbringer
Troops: 3 units of 4 nurglings.

So, the list has 7 troops with obsec that can contest objectives and be irritating. Nurglings can snatch objectives as early as turn 1. I would deploy 1 CSM squad into reserve to deploy scramblers on turn 3. It has glass cannon units that are expected to die, but hope to wipe a unit off an objective in the turn it charges. These are your berserker squad, the 2 warp talon units and the 2 terminator units, and the jump pack warlord. The Havoc squad is a distraction. It aims its guns and fire twice at the most dangerous threat and is expected to die after that. So, hide it behind obscuring until such a threat pokes its head out.

Same for the noise marines. They will die, even with delightful agonies on them. They point their guns at the most dangerous infantry threat and fire twice and if they survive to shoot in more turns, thats great..

The Rhinos are there to also hide behind terrain, transport the noise marines and berserkers, give them +3 movement when they disembark, and move onto an objective and in general be irritating. Plus red corsairs can advance and charge. So the threat range of the wrap talons and the berserkers, and even normal CSM unit is quite large.

Everything in the army is expendable. The aim is to hide the entire army behind terrain or in terrain. Just try and get 15 VP on primary on turn 2 from the nurglings. Deep strike in piece meal on turn 2 and 3. Then feed the opponent only 2 units (max 3 units) a turn until turn 5. Drag this out to turn 5, and hope to win on VP.

(Alternatively, drop the 2 Rhinos, then will have enough points to change the 1 squad of 10 zerkers to 2 squads of 8 and 2 chaos spawn units of 1).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 04:46:30


 
   
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Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am kinda waiting for our codex to get a much needed revamp. But in the meanwhile, accepting the fact that our unts are fragile *because 1W marines). It seems like we are forced to become a "tricksy" army. A bit like gene stealer cults. So, go for secondaries like deploy scramblers, and put 2 units of cheap cultists or CSM squad into reserve. Have two units of Emperor's children terminators in deep strike and have them come down on turn 2 and 3 with pride of the prince to charge into combat.

We have to accept the fact that our army is too fragile. If we have all of it on the board on turn one and go for an all in shoot out or brawl, we will quickly run out of gas. So instead, maybe we should try and push expendable units one at a time onto midboard or enemy deployment objectives to take over their objectives, create problems, and force them to spend effort killing these. Only make a big push on turn 3 or 4, and hope we can last till end of game.

Now honestly, I think trying to play CSM in a "tricksy" way when we don't really have that many strategems for it is not the best. But until our codex comes out. It seems like the only way to keep up with the sheer firepower or meleepower of other armies. Feed some pieces of our army slowly and go for VP and secondaries, and keep our opponent from scoring primaries. And try and drag it out to turn 5.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, along the lines of being "tricksy" , here's a list I thought up.

Emperor's Children Patrol:

HQ: Sorceror
Troops: 10 Noise marines, sonic blastors, riding in
Transport: Rhino
Elite: 2 squads of 5 Terminators, combi bolters, lightning claws and icon of excess.
Heavy support: 1 squad of Havocs with 4 Lascannons.

Red Corsairs Patrol
HQ: 1 Chaos Lord with jump pack, black mace
Troops: 3 units of 5 CSM.
Fast Attacks: 2 squads of 5 warp Talons
Elites: 1 squad of 10 Berserkers, icon of wrath, Champion with power maul. riding in
Transport: Rhino

Nurgle Daemon Patrol
HQ: 1 poxbringer
Troops: 3 units of 4 nurglings.

So, the list has 7 troops with obsec that can contest objectives and be irritating. Nurglings can snatch objectives as early as turn 1. I would deploy 1 CSM squad into reserve to deploy scramblers on turn 3. It has glass cannon units that are expected to die, but hope to wipe a unit off an objective in the turn it charges. These are your berserker squad, the 2 warp talon units and the 2 terminator units, and the jump pack warlord. The Havoc squad is a distraction. It aims its guns and fire twice at the most dangerous threat and is expected to die after that. So, hide it behind obscuring until such a threat pokes its head out.

Same for the noise marines. They will die, even with delightful agonies on them. They point their guns at the most dangerous infantry threat and fire twice and if they survive to shoot in more turns, thats great..

The Rhinos are there to also hide behind terrain, transport the noise marines and berserkers, give them +3 movement when they disembark, and move onto an objective and in general be irritating. Plus red corsairs can advance and charge. So the threat range of the wrap talons and the berserkers, and even normal CSM unit is quite large.

Everything in the army is expendable. The aim is to hide the entire army behind terrain or in terrain. Just try and get 15 VP on primary on turn 2 from the nurglings. Deep strike in piece meal on turn 2 and 3. Then feed the opponent only 2 units (max 3 units) a turn until turn 5. Drag this out to turn 5, and hope to win on VP.

(Alternatively, drop the 2 Rhinos, then will have enough points to change the 1 squad of 10 zerkers to 2 squads of 8 and 2 chaos spawn units of 1).


While I recognize Emperor's Children might be strongest Legion right now, 9th edition seems to be about holding / contesting objectives. Not sure any CSM are great at that task, most games appear to be decided turn 1.

Thinking how an opponent would go at that list. Pop that Rhino turn one, shoot up the Noise Marines and the Berzerkers. Grab whatever objectives the Nurglings are not on to even out the VPs. Screen the best units to ensure the Terminators and Warp Talons don't have anything good to charge when they arrive in turn 2. Ignore the CSM / CL and maybe take some shots at the Havocs. The CSMs don't have a great response, even if they go first.

Hate to be so down on CSM, but it feels like we're Tier 4 until the new Codex comes out.

   
Made in ch
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I have two questions?

Nr 1. having a bit thought about Chaos Spawn, what speaks against using Greater Possessed.

Nr 2. For curiosity sake, do all daemons have the daemonic ritual ability?

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:

Nr 1. having a bit thought about Chaos Spawn, what speaks against using Greater Possessed.


Using for what purpose ? Cost maybe ? A GP is 65, a spawn is 23.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nr 2. For curiosity sake, do all daemons have the daemonic ritual ability?


What do you mean ? All daemons across all factions ?

   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 p5freak wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

Nr 1. having a bit thought about Chaos Spawn, what speaks against using Greater Possessed.


Using for what purpose ? Cost maybe ? A GP is 65, a spawn is 23.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nr 2. For curiosity sake, do all daemons have the daemonic ritual ability?


What do you mean ? All daemons across all factions ?



I am considering a summer project, and considered a SC box. Basically i thought about strapping mindveil to a GP.

As for the later, i wanted to know if there are any limits on daemons for summoning in the vein of if the daemonic ritual ability is restricted, because i remembered the one list that used summoning extensively, which maybee pretty handy for generating cheap Daemon units to not break the trait rule.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Be'lakor does not have Daemonic Ritual, however every other datasheet from Codex: Chaos Daemons does.

No datasheets from Codex: Chaos Space Marines have Daemonic Ritual.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Rihgu wrote:
Be'lakor does not have Daemonic Ritual, however every other datasheet from Codex: Chaos Daemons does.

No datasheets from Codex: Chaos Space Marines have Daemonic Ritual.

so i remembered correctly....

Thought about daemonic incursion some mid sized squads or big gribblies with an invul.. thanks, that helped alot

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Be'lakor does not have Daemonic Ritual, however every other datasheet from Codex: Chaos Daemons does.

No datasheets from Codex: Chaos Space Marines have Daemonic Ritual.

so i remembered correctly....

Thought about daemonic incursion some mid sized squads or big gribblies with an invul.. thanks, that helped alot


Summoning Nurglings, Plaguebearers, and Horrors can be useful, depending on how many points you want to keep in reserve (remember that in order to split horrors you need to pay points for the splits, too)

I believe the "summoning heavy" list mostly made use of horrors and splitting them very very strategically. Nurglings and Plaguebearers are a little more straightforward to use.

The big gribblies are hard to summon for the most part. Probably not worth keeping enough reserve points for them since it's rare that you'll actually roll high enough to summon them.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





4d6 averages, what 14? that is a rather big number to summon.
DP with wings or without should be easily possible.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
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Not Online!!! wrote:
4d6 averages, what 14? that is a rather big number to summon.
DP with wings or without should be easily possible.


Summoning is up to 3 dice. I think Word Bearers modify that a bit, but I think it's just re-roll dice. The average is 11.5, so you could still reliably summon Daemon Princes.
Summoning the super grand exalted Forgeworld Daemons is on up to 4d6, I think? That might have changed with the last FW index.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Rihgu wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
4d6 averages, what 14? that is a rather big number to summon.
DP with wings or without should be easily possible.


Summoning is up to 3 dice. I think Word Bearers modify that a bit, but I think it's just re-roll dice. The average is 11.5, so you could still reliably summon Daemon Princes.
Summoning the super grand exalted Forgeworld Daemons is on up to 4d6, I think? That might have changed with the last FW index.


I am talking about the spell of the MoP. Which modifies the throw aswell as let's you summon after movement.
Considering if one want's to use summoning somewhat productively i thik "daemonic incursion " is the way to go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 14:03:02


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
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Oh my bad, I misunderstood. That sounds like a sound plan, I'd just be worried about WC7 either failing or being denied.

But I have incredibly bad luck on the tabletop so that's just my paranoia
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Rihgu wrote:
Oh my bad, I misunderstood. That sounds like a sound plan, I'd just be worried about WC7 either failing or being denied.

But I have incredibly bad luck on the tabletop so that's just my paranoia


I thought about using Alpha legion, we are alpharius and give him the special psyker warlord fatereader, for that sweet potential CP gain and for a once a game reroll of a failed cast.
Fling the dude with warptime forward, summon 30 plaguebearers in the middle of the board, behold slugffestival.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





in most games is not worth summon a big demon, lot better keep it in in reserve with demonic uncursion. Summon lesser demons is still worth.

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Anyone else chomping at the bit to deploy Be'lakor with CSM?

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
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 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Anyone else chomping at the bit to deploy Be'lakor with CSM?


There appears to be criticism around Be’lakor’s price and what he does for the army. Chaos space marine armies need the sum of the pieces to be greater than the whole. Be’lakor needs to be able to punch hard enough and buff enough to make up for likely 4 or 5 lords, sorcerers, masters of possession, and dark apostles in any combination of.

Admittedly by the rule of cool if I had the attention span to hobby that model into a semi respectable paint job I would drool at the rule of cool of having a beat stick monster with that gorgeous a model on the table massacring what it could victory be damned.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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In My Lab

macluvin wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Anyone else chomping at the bit to deploy Be'lakor with CSM?


There appears to be criticism around Be’lakor’s price and what he does for the army. Chaos space marine armies need the sum of the pieces to be greater than the whole. Be’lakor needs to be able to punch hard enough and buff enough to make up for likely 4 or 5 lords, sorcerers, masters of possession, and dark apostles in any combination of.

Admittedly by the rule of cool if I had the attention span to hobby that model into a semi respectable paint job I would drool at the rule of cool of having a beat stick monster with that gorgeous a model on the table massacring what it could victory be damned.
Do we have Be'lakor's full stats?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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https://spikeybits.com/2021/04/all-the-new-belakor-daemon-40k-rules.html

He looks stupid tough and puts out a lot of hurt but outside of a daemon engine or possessed list he won’t be doing a lot of damage multiplying.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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macluvin wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/04/all-the-new-belakor-daemon-40k-rules.html

He looks stupid tough and puts out a lot of hurt but outside of a daemon engine or possessed list he won’t be doing a lot of damage multiplying.
So we're missing the rules-well, some of them. That's make or break, right there.

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Isn't he supposed to have his own psychic discipline as well? That'll be an important factor.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Isn't he supposed to have his own psychic discipline as well? That'll be an important factor.


Yeah the Warhammer Community article did state that he’d have his own discipline. I really, really want Be’lakor to be good because I’ve always loved his lore, and the model is awesome (hell I even still love my Baby Be’la model despite the fact that it’s finecrap ^tm). I do think his psychic discipline and whatever special rules he comes with beyond what we’ve seen will make or break him though. If I had to guess he’s gonna cost a fair chunk of points (somewhere around 300) and his degrading profile is absolutely brutal. The degrading strength is sliiiightly mitigated by the fact that his sword is +4S on the piercing profile but going from M12” to 8” to 6” (side note: why on earth isn’t it 12-10-8???) and down to 4 A at the lowest hurts a lot. I think he’s really gonna need some good synergies, a solid psychic discipline, and or a unique debuff akin to what he got in AoS (although that ability is so strong it reminds of the grimoire of yesteryear where a game could be decided on a 3+ roll which wasn’t great).

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Do we have any idea when Be'lakor is getting his 40k rules, outside of a completely new Chaos Marine or Chaos Daemons book?

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do we have any idea when Be'lakor is getting his 40k rules, outside of a completely new Chaos Marine or Chaos Daemons book?

They said "In an upcoming supplement". So maybe a new Daemons codex, or maybe another DLC Warzone book. We'll see I guess.
   
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Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do we have any idea when Be'lakor is getting his 40k rules, outside of a completely new Chaos Marine or Chaos Daemons book?

They said "In an upcoming supplement". So maybe a new Daemons codex, or maybe another DLC Warzone book. We'll see I guess.

Also known as preorder not included DLC in tghis case...

I hope for those of you that will buy the supplement that Belakor and it's contents will be great, i just don^t think it's acceptable what GW pulled there.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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100% nothing stopping them from releasing a PDF on release day containing his 40k data sheet and points cost.

They lose nothing from doing so, and all the 40k players who bought him actually get to use him.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
100% nothing stopping them from releasing a PDF on release day containing his 40k data sheet and points cost.

They lose nothing from doing so, and all the 40k players who bought him actually get to use him.


i mean they gave us the pts update for free... so it could happen.
However, i don't think it will.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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If he gets the leadership debuff he might be fun to run with some Night Lords, assuming they don't change too much.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

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The Khorne daemons crimson crown works with shooting right? Has anybody tried it with soulburner decimators?
I feel like you could really boost the MW output on these to disgusting levels.

   
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Man I wish there was more talk about how to make our codex work in 9th edition... It’s kind of depressing. I know we all waiting for our 9e codex to drop...

Anyways adding 1-2 mortal wounds per soul burner per turn might be a good use of such an artifact. The bonus attacks don’t make more attacks though. If you could buff the attack roll or reroll 1s it would synergies even better.

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Abaddon303 wrote:
The Khorne daemons crimson crown works with shooting right? Has anybody tried it with soulburner decimators?
I feel like you could really boost the MW output on these to disgusting levels.


Yes, it works. Two soulburner petards put out 8 shots on average. Which will hit 5 times. For each wound roll of 6+ you will get a MW, so lets say one. Doesnt sound like a boost to disgusting levels to me.
   
 
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